Management Threads | Structure. Standards. Habits.

[arttk]

The problem is that there seems to be a much more important risk that if they have a bad season, Pettersson walks himself to UFA.

I don’t see a compelling story about why the moves management has made to give up future wins were good but the moves not made to push the needle further were good too.

i think it depends on what is available right? If we look around do we really see any piece that was traded for a 1st where we are like hot damn, we should've been on that 100%?

I also don't believe this season is playoff or bust in terms of extending Petey. Like if he himself or some other core piece gets hurt for a long stretch of games (touch wood), and we miss the playoff by like a point or 2 becuase of those absence, would he look at that and say, no playoff no sign or is it more like, there is obvious upward trajectory that if they add like another guy or two in the offseason, we can survive a big injury or two and still be compeittive and he buys into the project.

 

[sting101]

Teams exiting cup windows can have similar prospect pools.

Really? How many have the same quality as Pettersson Hughes Kuzmenko and Demko as a baseline when they are exiting and what does this have to do with PA and JR?

I said in another post: All this does is raise their floor up to a passable level with the pack. Yeah, it's an improvement over Benning. A monkey with a laser pointer would be an improvement over Benning.

But it's a zero-sum league. The Canucks need a lot better than "baseline competence" to ever become a contender again.

Why is this a criticism of this regime then?. I mean you cant just will players to improve overnight

 

[rypper]

Yep. Apparently doing the bare minimum that every other organization does is now evidence of some incredibly masterminded long-term plan.

When it was ignored for the last decade or so, it's going to take work to implement and improve on. Not something they should be overly lauded for, but a small step in a long term plan. How could it not be?

The team had almost zero focus on developing players. Now they're fully invested in it. Developing players in house is with an eye to the long term future.

 

[bossram]

Why is this a criticism of this regime then?. I mean you cant just will players to improve overnight

If you want to interpret me saying they are "baseline competent" as a criticism, then you do you.

This response was in the context of others (including yourself) misinterpreting basic functions that every competent NHL organization executes as actually innovative, inventive, long-term general managing.

When it was ignored for the last decade or so, it's going to take work to implement and improve on. Not something they should be overly lauded for, but a small step in a long term plan. How could it not be?

The team had almost zero focus on developing players. Now they're fully invested in it. Developing players in house is with an eye to the long term future.

Sorry, I'm not gonna be jumping up and down celebrating that the Canucks are finally doing things that every other competent organization does. It's not some kind of "long-term plan" anymore than eating every day is a "long-term plan" for continuing to live. It's just something they should be doing.

Like yes, it's good that they have reached baseline competence. But merely baseline competent GMing won't produce them anything more than a league-average team.

 

[sting101]

Trade Miller, no trade for Hronek, pursue a discounted Marino, generally more patient approach and building an asset base.

But why Marino then? shouldn't we be stocking picks for the longer rebuild?

What is discounted if were giving up Podkolzin and a 3rd for Marino? Last i checked Marino wouldnt sign out west to play with Mcdavid and Draisaitl what makes you think he would come here?

And even if this is just an approach vs a specific player you havent gained cap space Marino vs Hronek and with Miller gone and Horvat does that help the Pettersson situation?

 

[credulous]

marino had 5 years left on his deal at a great price when he was traded and cost relatively little in real assets. that trade was a win for teams in any part of the competitive lifecycle

 

[sting101]

If you want to interpret me saying they are "baseline competent" as a criticism, then you do you.

This response was in the context of others (including yourself) misinterpreting basic functions that every competent NHL organization executes as actually innovative, inventive, long-term general managing.


Sorry, I'm not gonna be jumping up and down celebrating that the Canucks are finally doing things that every other competent organization does. It's not some kind of "long-term plan" anymore than eating every day is a "long-term plan" for continuing to live. It's just something they should be doing.

Like yes, it's good that they have reached baseline competence. But merely baseline competent GMing won't produce them anything more than a league-average team.

It's not what i said at all and you used it as a criticism in your argument.

You just injected all these "buzz words" when all i said is that the new management group has made improvements that should have tangible results at a variety of levels.

You still never even said what you would have done with OEL after making that criticism

Nah the players will decide and if your doing what the best teams are doing as "baseline competence how is that forcing you down to league average?

 

[bossram]

But why Marino then? shouldn't we be stocking picks for the longer rebuild?

What is discounted if were giving up Podkolzin and a 3rd for Marino? Last i checked Marino wouldnt sign out west to play with Mcdavid and Draisaitl what makes you think he would come here?

And even if this is just an approach vs a specific player you havent gained cap space Marino vs Hronek and with Miller gone and Horvat does that help the Pettersson situation?

Marino was a much better option for the "patient but still work to improve and add pieces" approach than Hronek. He was traded for a downward-trending prospect and a 3rd. And why would he come here? Because he was traded. He has no trade restrictions on his deal.

If you deal Miller and Horvat then they have a lot more cap space and draft capital they can either use themselves, or spend to acquire other cost-controlled players.

marino had 5 years left on his deal at a great price when he was traded and cost relatively little in real assets. that trade was a win for teams in any part of the competitive lifecycle

This. He cost far less via trade, was cost controlled, and is a superior player to what the Canucks actually traded for who fills a more clear direct need (high-end, defensive RHD).

 

[Diogenes92]

Interesting fact:

Tyler Myers is currently the #2 RHD on the depth charts.

 

[bossram]

It's not what i said at all and you used it as a criticism in your argument.

You just injected all these "buzz words" when all i said is that the new management group has made improvements that should have tangible results at a variety of levels.

You still never even said what you would have done with OEL after making that criticism

Nah the players will decide and if your doing what the best teams are doing as "baseline competence how is that forcing you down to league average?

Lmao. How is "baseline competence" going to build a team better than average? You'd need above-average management to build an above-average team. You consistently seem to think that executing actions that every other team does is some kind of competitive advantage. These aren't buzz words, but I guess that's your counter-argument against things you don't understand.

I would not have bought out OEL at that time.

 

[BrentSopelsHair]

I found his candour refreshing. Everything he said is accurate, fair and pragmatic.

- He said we're one or two contracts away from having our cap structure the way he wants it (so let's go with Myers and one of Beauvillier or Garland, two of which we can be guaranteed will be gone by next year if we want).

- He said that things have to go right in order for us to get into the playoffs comfortably HOWEVER he didn't say we couldn't make the playoffs if anything went wrong, because we had difference-makers who could bring us in (so let's go with Petersson, Hughes, Demko that can drag us over the bubble line, which sounds reasonable) but that the goal would be to get us to the position where we're not relying on star players to carry us into the playoffs.

That sounds like good incremental goals to build towards a contender, an accurate and most importantly a change from Benning, an honest assessment.

So someone who has an accurate, honest assessment, is laying out a transparent plan and acknowledging realities (two cap hindering contracts) that are on a pathway to being fixed, from management that with a couple questionable decisions, have overall been shrewd and measured.

If ownership set the "compete every year" mandate, then this is good management playing the hand their dealt and doing a good job of it to me.

Truthfully I don't totally disagree with what you're saying here in terms of management's commentary. Was more just trying to point out specifically what was actually said.

While it's an honest assessment, I would also say that we are 3 months away from this management team having been in place for 2 years, and when this management team came in Rutherford literally laughed at the idea that this team would take 3 years to get back on track to being a contender.

However, I think it's fair to question if the ceiling of this team has meaningfully lifted. The new management team was of course put in a bad spot by the morons of the past. Unfortunately that was the reality of the job they signed up for, and in order for this team to turn around from one of the most embarrassing teams in the league into a team with a real shot at contention while keeping EP, this management team needed to essentially go on an unprecedented run of banger, home-run moves (which obviously has not occurred).

So while it's cool that we're all able to recognize that this management group is at least competent, I just find myself unsatisfied with that. It feels like a continued example of setting the bar too low, when we should be expecting excellence.

 

[sting101]

Lmao. How is "baseline competence" going to build a team better than average? You'd need above-average management to build an above-average team. You consistently seem to think that executing actions that every other team does is some kind of competitive advantage. These aren't buzz words, but I guess that's your counter-argument against things you don't understand.

I would not have bought out OEL at that time.

Why do you keep saying "baseline competence"

If you're eating sleeping and training the same as the gold medal winners with the same coaches then that's pretty much all you can do aside from using PEDs.

How is this a criticism of this group?

What are you aiming for? what constitutes "above average" im struggling to quantify what you are aiming for and what that looks like?

When would you have bought him out?

 

[Diogenes92]

So while it's cool that we're all able to recognize that this management group is at least competent, I just find myself unsatisfied with that. It feels like a continued example of setting the bar too low, when we should be expecting excellence.

I agree. It's important to have high standards as Canucks fan. We had that with Gillis and Gilman.

I find it hard to fathom how some fans are satisfied with the bare minimum of what should be expected from a mangement group in a large Canadian market.

2015 was the last time the Canucks qualified for the playoffs. Its insane to think about that.

I give the Canucks around a 35-40% chance of squeaking into the playoffs this year. That really isn't good enough for how long they've had to improve the team.

Why do you keep saying "baseline competence"

What are you aiming for? what constitutes "above average" im struggling to quantify what you are aiming for and what that looks like?

Playoffs would be a good start...

And as a side wish, no organizational drama this year. Its been too common lately. Although with the pouty Petey stuff going on, maybe that won't be possible.

 

[bossram]

Why do you keep saying "baseline competence"

If you're eating sleeping and training the same as the gold medal winners with the same coaches then that's pretty much all you can do aside from using PEDs.

How is this a criticism of this group?

What are you aiming for? what constitutes "above average" im struggling to quantify what you are aiming for and what that looks like?

When would you have bought him out?

I would argue if you are training at the same level as everyone else, you are not doing all you can do. You would need to do something different to get an edge.

It's not really a criticism of the group. It's just a statement of fact. They are fine. Not particularly great.

Above average GMing would be finding undervalued players who provide big surplus value (like COL finding Nichushkin or Toews, TB with Hagel, Vegas with Stephenson, NJ with Marino), not paying market value or premium prices on players you happen to like (like Hronek or Miller). It would be planning to have cap flexibility to execute such moves, not scrambling to have a functioning roster on the eve of training camp.

I would have tried to deal with OEL's contract closer to expiry, perhaps with two-ish years remaining.

Why are you satisfied with the bare minimum?

 

[strattonius]

I think the improvements to our development system and emphasis in that area is more than 'baeeline' but only time will tell.

 

[sting101]

I agree. It's important to have high standards as Canucks fan. We had that with Gillis and Gilman.

I find it hard to fathom how some fans are satisfied with the bare minimum of what should be expected from a mangement group in a large Canadian market.

2015 was the last time the Canucks qualified for the playoffs. Its insane to think about that.

I give the Canucks around a 35-40% chance of squeaking into the playoffs this year. That really isn't good enough for how long they've had to improve the team.


Playoffs would be a good start...

And as a side wish, no organizational drama this year. Its been too common lately. Although with the pouty Petey stuff going on, maybe that won't be possible.

A year and a half with OEL Myers Garland Poolman Pearson Dickinson Hamonic all locked down for 2 yrs minimum and almost nothing in the pipeline of good value?

 

[Diogenes92]

A year and a half with OEL Myers Garland Poolman Pearson Dickinson Hamonic all locked down for 2 yrs minimum and almost nothing in the pipeline of good value?

Can you clarify what you mean by this?

I was referring to their playoffs chances with their current roster.

 

[MarkusNaslund19]

IMO it's an indictment of the club. Everything they've done is in service of making the playoffs now. The majority of the cap benefit of the OEL buyout is for this season only. They've been scrambling to clear cap during training camp for both seasons they've been on board.

Given all that and they still don't believe they are a real playoff team, it reflects very poorly on the job they've done.

You have this tendency to put a lot of eggs into the basket of the sort of corporate media speak that GMs offer.

As others have said, becoming a good team is a process and, with a core like we have, there are more ways than just tanking.

Him saying we're at the point where if things go right we're in, and if things go wrong we're out basically ties us with or puts us above like 22 other teams. How many teams do you earnestly believe could have two major things go wrong and still make the playoffs?

What do you want to hear from him? "We see Carolina and Jersey as our main competitors in the finals"?

It's a process and they have encouragingly already brought in a lot of depth (which has been our fundamental problem), are in process of building a pipeline from Abbotsford both in culture and in the quality of players we have who won't make the team, and we only have like 5 guys signed beyond 2025.

Yes, the OEL thing helps us most this season and next, but the cap also goes up. And while I know you'll say it goes up for every team, this is true but it makes it easier to navigate around 4 million when the cap goes up by like 8 (btw now and two years from now).

MInnesota has found a way to make it work with 14 million in dead cap so we know it's possible.

 

[bossram]

You have this tendency to put a lot of eggs into the basket of the sort of corporate media speak that GMs offer.

As others have said, becoming a good team is a process and, with a core like we have, there are more ways than just tanking.

Him saying we're at the point where if things go right we're in, and if things go wrong we're out basically ties us with or puts us above like 22 other teams. How many teams do you earnestly believe could have two major things go wrong and still make the playoffs?

What do you want to hear from him? "We see Carolina and Jersey as our main competitors in the finals"?

It's a process and they have encouragingly already brought in a lot of depth (which has been our fundamental problem), are in process of building a pipeline from Abbotsford both in culture and in the quality of players we have who won't make the team, and we only have like 5 guys signed beyond 2025.

Yes, the OEL thing helps us most this season and next, but the cap also goes up. And while I know you'll say it goes up for every team, this is true but it makes it easier to navigate around 4 million when the cap goes up by like 8 (btw now and two years from now).

MInnesota has found a way to make it work with 14 million in dead cap so we know it's possible.

I prefer to interpret what management actually says and does, rather than other people divinating what they think some secret master plan is. Hey, at least JR is honest with that comment. I'll give him that.

The NHL is a zero-sum world. Yes, the cap increasing is not a competitive advantage for the Canucks. Sure, it helps them navigate the OEL buyout. It also helps their competition improve. It's no net benefit. This is just the truth. Minnesota has done very well to remain competitive given their huge buyout hits. It's a reflection of some very good management, timely ELC players breaking out, and many players on surplus value deals. Can Allvin and Co. accomplish all that to such a degree the Canucks can become a contender? We'll see.

 

[arttk]

I would argue if you are training at the same level as everyone else, you are not doing all you can do. You would need to do something different to get an edge.

It's not really a criticism of the group. It's just a statement of fact. They are fine. Not particularly great.

Above average GMing would be finding undervalued players who provide big surplus value (like COL finding Nichushkin or Toews, TB with Hagel, Vegas with Stephenson, NJ with Marino), not paying market value or premium prices on players you happen to like (like Hronek or Miller). It would be planning to have cap flexibility to execute such moves, not scrambling to have a functioning roster on the eve of training camp.

I would have tried to deal with OEL's contract closer to expiry, perhaps with two-ish years remaining.

Why are you satisfied with the bare minimum?

Love how you included Hagel while completely ignoring that it cost TB 2 1st rounders and a decent prospect and also Marino as undervalued. Once again it seems like how you value things are completely different than anyone else.

I assume Kuzmenko would count as those undevalued players or that doesn't count in your humble opinion?

Letting OEL's contract go on for 2 more years will pretty much ensure this team sucks for the next 2 years considering how bad of a fit he is for us. Yes we are paying the cost of dead cap for buying out now but we are not paying the other cost which is having an absolute anchor that makes it hard for us to compete and keep Petey.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

Really? How many have the same quality as Pettersson Hughes Kuzmenko and Demko as a baseline when they are exiting and what does this have to do with PA and JR?

Prospect pool. I said prospect pool. You listed our prospects.

We have the prospect pool, contract structure and tradeable assets of a team exiting its cup window.

 

[Hodgy]

Truthfully I don't totally disagree with what you're saying here in terms of management's commentary. Was more just trying to point out specifically what was actually said.

While it's an honest assessment, I would also say that we are 3 months away from this management team having been in place for 2 years, and when this management team came in Rutherford literally laughed at the idea that this team would take 3 years to get back on track to being a contender.

However, I think it's fair to question if the ceiling of this team has meaningfully lifted. The new management team was of course put in a bad spot by the morons of the past. Unfortunately that was the reality of the job they signed up for, and in order for this team to turn around from one of the most embarrassing teams in the league into a team with a real shot at contention while keeping EP, this management team needed to essentially go on an unprecedented run of banger, home-run moves (which obviously has not occurred).

So while it's cool that we're all able to recognize that this management group is at least competent, I just find myself unsatisfied with that. It feels like a continued example of setting the bar too low, when we should be expecting excellence.

This is exactly how I feel. They are basically failing to meet their own expectations, and really seem to be trying what 75% of the league managers try to do, which is both to be competitive in the short term and build a champion team in the long term. This very difficult and effectively requires a management team to beat the odds with above average to excellent transactions. They don't really have any real "plan" to do this, only that they will just be "better" than everyone else in how they do everything. At best, there is a ton of hubris that goes into this plan on the part of management, and at worst, they know its mostly a fools errand or longer shot but enjoy be gainfully employed in the NHL as mangers (and frankly, its kind of hard to be overly critical of this aspect).

This "just be better than everyone else" plan, is in stark contrast to your typical rebuild plan where you don't have to actually "just be better than everyone else" since, all things being equal, a team will improve over time by virtue of sacrificing present assets / competitiveness for the future.

Ultimately though, in order to be a consistent championship caliber team, you are going to need to "just be better than everyone else" no matter which avenue you chose, but the rebuild avenue gives more room for error.

 

[andora]

I prefer to interpret what management actually says and does, rather than other people divinating what they think some secret master plan is. Hey, at least JR is honest with that comment. I'll give him that.

The NHL is a zero-sum world. Yes, the cap increasing is not a competitive advantage for the Canucks. Sure, it helps them navigate the OEL buyout. It also helps their competition improve. It's no net benefit. This is just the truth. Minnesota has done very well to remain competitive given their huge buyout hits. It's a reflection of some very good management, timely ELC players breaking out, and many players on surplus value deals. Can Allvin and Co. accomplish all that to such a degree the Canucks can become a contender? We'll see.

Does minnesota deserve praise? I think they do and they are a good team to model our situation after... not relative to the cap stuff but the coaching and system stuff - their issue is scoring.. i dont see our issue as scoring but rather no complete system like they have

If vancouver can become systematic like minnesota they can be 'competitive' too.. i dont think anyone believes minnesota is a contender.. but they compete

 

[bossram]

Love how you included Hagel while completely ignoring that it cost TB 2 1st rounders and a decent prospect and also Marino as undervalued. Once again it seems like how you value things are completely different than anyone else.

I assume Kuzmenko would count as those undevalued players or that doesn't count in your humble opinion?

Letting OEL's contract go on for 2 more years will pretty much ensure this team sucks for the next 2 years considering how bad of a fit he is for us. Yes we are paying the cost of dead cap for buying out now but we are not paying the other cost which is having an absolute anchor that makes it hard for us to compete and keep Petey.

TB traded two late 1sts for multiple seasons of 1st line calibre play from Hagel, at an AAV of $1.5M. Yes, that is great value. As usual, it seems you are unable to analyze player value in the context of a hard cap world. You need guys providing surplus value over their contracts, and I'm in favour of trades to acquire such players. Marino is another example. 1st pair quality RHD locked in long-term at $4.4M, which will look like an even better deal as the cap rises. Fantastic value. Again, you just can't grasp this concept.

I've said in other threads in the past before, front office doesn't get any credit for talent evaluation on Kuzmenko. He was only eligible to sign an ELC. 32 teams in the NHL wanted to pluck him from Russia. Allvin did not find a diamond in the rough on the cheap. I give them credit for the recruitment though.

The obsession you have with every move having to contribute to "convincing" Petey to stay is really bizarre. Alright, why hasn't Petey signed yet then, if the club has done so much to convince him? Why didn't he re-sign after OEL was bought out then? You'd think he'd be under contract by now given how adamant you are that the Petey Charm Offensive is working.

 

[bossram]

Does minnesota deserve praise? I think they do and they are a good team to model our situation after... not relative to the cap stuff but the coaching and system stuff - their issue is scoring.. i dont see our issue as scoring but rather no complete system like they have

If vancouver can become systematic like minnesota they can be 'competitive' too.. i dont think anyone believes minnesota is a contender.. but they compete

I think it is more to do with pruning the leaves of perhaps uneccesary players that will not be contributing surplus value anymore while getting value back (Fiala, Greenway), getting ELC help (Boldy, Faber), and sharp contracts (Hartman, Middleton, Eriksson Ek).

Last season their "structure" didn't really lead to great shot/chance differentials. A lot of their success was goaltending-driven (and again, credit to Guerin for snagging Gustavsson in a trade).

The Canucks are also in a similar place. They need scoring. They were a below-average 5v5 scoring team. Tocchet might add "structure", but it could come at the expense of even more offense.