Management Threads | Structure. Standards. Habits.

[rypper]

They could have been more aggressive in moving a first to improve the team, but they're still hamstrung by the cap. You knock value off that 1st round pick when you attach a bad contract to it.

If the team is in a good spot come the new year I think they'll get more aggressive.

 

[Vector]

Some people have been unfairly comparing management to Benning, but the downside with this group is probably more along the lines of Dave Nonis.

That's been my argument the whole time. Not Benning but quite Nonisy. They did manage to execute two aggressive trades (Horvat & Hronek) but Nonis also made the Luongo deal...

I do question how much realistic trade chatter there is actually out there. It seems a lot of the new GMs are only looking for big wins where they can buy players at lower price. There's been a few big trades (Tkachuk and Karlsson stand out) but nothing that big and mostly different versions of salary dumps.

 

[Burke's Evil Spirit]

Some people have been unfairly comparing management to Benning, but the downside with this group is probably more along the lines of Dave Nonis.

I think this management group should be more aggressive than it has been, but this is a ridiculous comparison.

Allvin and Rutherford at least have some vision of how they want the team to play and are able to make cheap, effective depth additions.

Nonis handed out one-way contracts to non-NHLers like candy: Goren, McCarthy, Bouck, Baumgartner, Noronen, Cowan, Chouinard, Santala, Ritchie, Isbister, Brown, Bergevin, Beech, Pettinger, Miller ... enough crap to fill an entire roster, and he only had the job for 3 seasons!

I never got the "Nonis needed to be more aggressive" criticism. We got bold moves Nonis when he was named Leafs GM, and that is probably the worst GM performance in NHL history this side of Jim Benning.

Canucks fans should be grateful he twiddled his thumbs when he had this job.

 

[ahmon]

Yeah, absolutely. While a lot of the focus has been on whether the Pettersson comments support the path taken, the key takeaway for me is that it reinforces haven’t been aggressive enough.

It’s not just that they have pushed their window forward with their approach but also that their approach is apparently going to blow up if they don’t win this season. And by their own admission they’ve only built a team that needs everything to go right to make the playoffs. Incredibly risky strategy to only go half way on.

Agreed, I also feel they should have done more.

I would have been more aggressive to move cap out and get another top forward with size to complement Petey/Kuzmenko/Miller.

I do like the offseason addition especially Cole/Blueger, but Rutherford's assessment is bang on - teams generally have several things that go wrong.

To me even if Petey wasn't looking at this season to sign, every year we burn we waste a prime year away from Petey/Hughes/Demko

 

[sting101]

They could have been more aggressive in moving a first to improve the team, but they're still hamstrung by the cap. You knock value off that 1st round pick when you attach a bad contract to it.

If the team is in a good spot come the new year I think they'll get more aggressive.

This is my feeling as well. They can ride out the Myers Beauvillier (10.1 million) contracts and then instead of applying it to a poor value UFA be wiling to invest a 1st plus to acquire the specific D man they need who would solidify the group and just use a cheaper younger Hoglander - Podkolzin- Bains to play the role.

 

[sting101]

I think this management group should be more aggressive than it has been, but this is a ridiculous comparison.

Allvin and Rutherford at least have some vision of how they want the team to play and are able to make cheap, effective depth additions.

Nonis handed out one-way contracts to non-NHLers like candy: Goren, McCarthy, Bouck, Baumgartner, Noronen, Cowan, Chouinard, Santala, Ritchie, Isbister, Brown, Bergevin, Beech, Pettinger, Miller ... enough crap to fill an entire roster, and he only had the job for 3 seasons!

I never got the "Nonis needed to be more aggressive" criticism. We got bold moves Nonis when he was named Leafs GM, and that is probably the worst GM performance in NHL history this side of Jim Benning.

Canucks fans should be grateful he twiddled his thumbs when he had this job.

especially when Ownership was clamouring for B.Richards and Dave Pratt wouldn't shut up about trading Edler Kesler and 1st rounders for Mats Sundin? LOL

It really just comes down to execution and timing.

Nonis was too afraid to make a bold move but he also had the shadow of the Bertuzzi incident and Cloutier's poorly timed melt downs handcuffing him. As it turns out his NO NUTS helped the team not implode itself and rev up for a better team.

 

[pitseleh]

I think this management group should be more aggressive than it has been, but this is a ridiculous comparison.

Allvin and Rutherford at least have some vision of how they want the team to play and are able to make cheap, effective depth additions.

Nonis handed out one-way contracts to non-NHLers like candy: Goren, McCarthy, Bouck, Baumgartner, Noronen, Cowan, Chouinard, Santala, Ritchie, Isbister, Brown, Bergevin, Beech, Pettinger, Miller ... enough crap to fill an entire roster, and he only had the job for 3 seasons!

That’s like pointing to Stillman, Studnicka, Kravtsov, etc then ignoring everything else this management has done at the bottom end of the roster.

He also acquired useful players like Park, Carter, Pyatt, Bulis, Shannon and Weaver for basically nothing.

I never got the "Nonis needed to be more aggressive" criticism. We got bold moves Nonis when he was named Leafs GM, and that is probably the worst GM performance in NHL history this side of Jim Benning.

Canucks fans should be grateful he twiddled his thumbs when he had this job.

Nonis was undoubtedly terrible after he left, but his record here was one where the individual transactions on the whole look pretty good, everything major was a big win, and yet the team didn’t go anywhere. But it also a lot easier to regularly win if you don’t take many shots/risks.

Edit: and to be clear, I am not saying they are as bad as/will be as bad as Nonis turned out to be, only that the issues are more similar to his than Benning’s.

 

[arttk]

They could have been more aggressive in moving a first to improve the team, but they're still hamstrung by the cap. You knock value off that 1st round pick when you attach a bad contract to it.

If the team is in a good spot come the new year I think they'll get more aggressive.

also hedging against having a bad season. if there are like catastrophic injuries that kills us, having trade that 1st rounder is going to bite our ass hard vs deciding what to do with it in the TDL.

 

[sting101]

also hedging against having a bad season. if there are like catastrophic injuries that kills us, having trade that 1st rounder is going to bite our ass hard vs deciding what to do with it in the TDL.

yes that's a good point too. I would think by the deadline this team will be sniffing around a big move for that 3rd defenseman that can be our Edler if were looking like we can do some damage.

The next 2 moves for players making 4 plus million are going to be massive providing we get what we all hope from the players already here within reason

 

[strattonius]

We are going to be the surprise team of the West this year, much like Seattle was last year.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

That's not really an answer though your just saying you dont like how they are going about it without showing what you would have liked to see instead specifically

Build towards a cup window.

That should be the job of every GM.

Theyve built towards short term improvement to try to get EP to sign long term and then figure out the rest later.


If they are actually competing right now...
They should trade their 1sts next year add the year after and their prospects that wont play this year or next for immediate help.

 

[pitseleh]

also hedging against having a bad season. if there are like catastrophic injuries that kills us, having trade that 1st rounder is going to bite our ass hard vs deciding what to do with it in the TDL.

The problem is that there seems to be a much more important risk that if they have a bad season, Pettersson walks himself to UFA.

I don’t see a compelling story about why the moves management has made to give up future wins were good but the moves not made to push the needle further were good too.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

That's been my argument the whole time. Not Benning but quite Nonisy. They did manage to execute two aggressive trades (Horvat & Hronek) but Nonis also made the Luongo deal...

I do question how much realistic trade chatter there is actually out there. It seems a lot of the new GMs are only looking for big wins where they can buy players at lower price. There's been a few big trades (Tkachuk and Karlsson stand out) but nothing that big and mostly different versions of salary dumps.

Its really hard when you have no assets to trade. The trades that improve the team right now become available if you are selling futures.

That is why this path is so unlikely to succeed.

The problem is that there seems to be a much more important risk that if they have a bad season, Pettersson walks himself to UFA.

I don’t see a compelling story about why the moves management has made to give up future wins were good but the moves not made to push the needle further were good too.

I dont think a 'good season' will trick EP in to signing. There needs to be a clear path to contention for the cup.

 

[sting101]

Build towards a cup window.

That should be the job of every GM.

Theyve built towards short term improvement to try to get EP to sign long term and then figure out the rest later.


If they are actually competing right now...
They should trade their 1sts next year add the year after and their prospects that wont play this year or next for immediate help.

But as mentioned you're limited by cap space and what comes available when you get it?

And you're injecting you're opinion that they are solely focussed on improving short term to get "Pettersson to sign" and figure the rest out later which ignores Abby the development coaches, the improved layers of internal competition, the signings of European and College free agents that to date out weigh the value of draft picks they surrendered.

That they have built an identity with new leadership and a much faster productive group throughout and still have Raty Lekkerimaki Willander EP2 Podkolzin and Hoglander to push from within long term

 

[bossram]

That's not really an answer though your just saying you dont like how they are going about it without showing what you would have liked to see instead specifically

Trade Miller, no trade for Hronek, pursue a discounted Marino, generally more patient approach and building an asset base.

 

[Diogenes92]

IMO it's an indictment of the club. Everything they've done is in service of making the playoffs now. The majority of the cap benefit of the OEL buyout is for this season only. They've been scrambling to clear cap during training camp for both seasons they've been on board.

Given all that and they still don't believe they are a real playoff team, it reflects very poorly on the job they've done.

One thing I'll say in management's defense is that Benning gave them a brutal mess to clean up.

But, when they decided to move forward with the exact same plan believing that they could do it better...

They haven't helped themselves by continuing to spend money in FA, buyout contracts, and bring in big contracts via trade to improve their team, only to have to bleed draft picks just to be cap compliant. Two seasons in a row.

It's crazy to think that its basically already playoffs or bust this season before even the casual fans start to get mad again. Especially if Petey leaves.

Trade Miller, no trade for Hronek, pursue a discounted Marino, generally more patient approach and building an asset base.

But Petey and Quinn!

 

[bossram]

But as mentioned you're limited by cap space and what comes available when you get it?

And you're injecting you're opinion that they are solely focussed on improving short term to get "Pettersson to sign" and figure the rest out later which ignores Abby the development coaches, the improved layers of internal competition, the signings of European and College free agents that to date out weigh the value of draft picks they surrendered.

That they have built an identity with new leadership and a much faster productive group throughout and still have Raty Lekkerimaki Willander EP2 Podkolzin and Hoglander to push from within long term

These are just behaviours of a baseline competent organization. Yes, it's a revelation post-Benning. But it's not some kind of amazing competitive advantage. It's just catching up to the pack. They still have a mediocre prospect pool. There's not another superstar coming to save them.

In order to be a contender, they need a lot better than merely competent/passable management.

 

[sting101]

I dont think a 'good season' will trick EP in to signing. There needs to be a clear path to contention for the cup.

Neither do i.

After Horvat Bruce the way Boeser has been treated and his countrymen in Eriksson and OEL even he has a good reason to not want to be a part of an ongoing point the finger game at the high paid guy who couldn't lead his team to success.

The thought that short term propping is gonna convince him one way or another is really selling Pettersson short of intelligence.

He's fiercely competitive and he's at the age where it's time to secure his legacy as a NHLer. He's not gonna hitch his wagon to an ongoing middle of the pack team of transient miss fits

 

[bossram]

One thing I'll say in magement's defense is that Benning gave them a brutal mess to clean up.

But, when they decided to move forward with the exact same plan believing that they could do it better...

They haven't helped themselves by continuing to spend money in FA, buyout contracts, and bring in big contracts via trade to improve their team, only to have to bleed draft picks just to be cap compliant. Two seasons in a row.

It's crazy to think that its basically already playoffs or bust this season before even the casual fans start to get mad again. Especially if Petey leaves.


But Petey and Quinn!

Yep. Allvin and JR have the same (flawed) strategy as Benning, just executed at a somewhat competent level. It'll raise the Canucks floor to passable, but still limit their ceiling from becoming a contender.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

But as mentioned you're limited by cap space and what comes available when you get it?

And you're injecting you're opinion that they are solely focussed on improving short term to get "Pettersson to sign" and figure the rest out later which ignores Abby the development coaches, the improved layers of internal competition, the signings of European and College free agents that to date out weigh the value of draft picks they surrendered.

How is this an argument that they are prioritizing the future. How would ignoring the AHL affiliate and not dipping in to free agency like every single team in the league can, help them compete in the short term.

I dont understand why this gets brought up constantly.

That they have built an identity with new leadership and a much faster productive group throughout and still have Raty Lekkerimaki Willander EP2 Podkolzin and Hoglander to push from within long term

Teams exiting cup windows can have similar prospect pools.

The team has no room to grow in to a contender. There just isnt enough juice in thw tank. They are attempting liftoff with a 2/3 of a rocket.

Yep. Allvin and JR have the same (flawed) strategy as Benning, just executed at a somewhat competent level. It'll raise the Canucks floor to passable, but still limit their ceiling from becoming a contender.

Yeah. This is my exact view too.

 

[bossram]

How is this an argument that they are prioritizing the future. How would ignoring the AHL affiliate and not dipping in to free agency like every single team in the league can, help them compete in the short term.

I dont understand why this gets brought up constantly.

Teams exiting cup windows can have similar prospect pools.

The team has no room to grow in to a contender. There just isnt enough juice in thw tank. They are attempting liftoff with a 2/3 of a rocket.

Yep. Apparently doing the bare minimum that every other organization does is now evidence of some incredibly masterminded long-term plan.

 

[Diogenes92]

Yep. Allvin and JR have the same (flawed) strategy as Benning, just executed at a somewhat competent level. It'll raise the Canucks floor to passable, but still limit their ceiling from becoming a contender.

Which basically means worse draft position (if they don't trade all fo their picks away) as well as giving false hope to ownership and retoolies to stay the course.

Yep. Apparently doing the bare minimum that every other organization does is now evidence of some incredibly masterminded long-term plan.

As I posted earlier, base competence is now looked at as innovation and excellence after 8 years of Benning.

 

[sting101]

Yep. Apparently doing the bare minimum that every other organization does is now evidence of some incredibly masterminded long-term plan.

Yes other teams are doing the same but this is a means to improvement when you weren't doing it before?

Are you overlooking this or are we chasing unicorns?

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

Its really hard when you have no assets to trade. The trades that improve the team right now become available if you are selling futures.

That is why this path is so unlikely to succeed.


I dont think a 'good season' will trick EP in to signing. There needs to be a clear path to contention for the cup.

The recent trading of futures has been used to address deficiencies (RHD), and also right the ship as far as the cap is concerned...I dont think this new management has a mantra of 'lets build the team' through giving up picks/prospects.

What other available path is/was likely to succeed..?..Not trading for a 25 year old top 4 D,... trading Miller, which would leave EP as the only impact C on the team ?

There's no guarantees either way.

 

[bossram]

Yes other teams are doing the same but this is a means to improvement when you weren't doing it before?

Are you overlooking this or are we chasing unicorns?

I said in another post: All this does is raise their floor up to a passable level with the pack. Yeah, it's an improvement over Benning. A monkey with a laser pointer would be an improvement over Benning.

But it's a zero-sum league. The Canucks need a lot better than "baseline competence" to ever become a contender again.