Management Threads | Structure. Standards. Habits.

[bossram]

It's just a clumsy and probably poorly-chosen way of saying that the team isn't one of the big dogs yet, but that he feels that they're righting the ship and are on the path toward that goal. I don't get why everyone is agonizing over this so hard.

Like, yeah, no shit the team isn't making the playoffs if Hughes retires tomorrow or whatever. It's not like this is some revelation.

IMO it's an indictment of the club. Everything they've done is in service of making the playoffs now. The majority of the cap benefit of the OEL buyout is for this season only. They've been scrambling to clear cap during training camp for both seasons they've been on board.

Given all that and they still don't believe they are a real playoff team, it reflects very poorly on the job they've done.

 

[Vector]

A couple things to point out that this management group has traded away one more draft pick than they've acquired. I'd be remiss if I didn't admit that the Canucks have traded out the more valuable picks than they've acquired (two 2nds).

Draft Picks
Outgoing:
3rd 2022 (WPG)
2nd 2024 (VAN)
5th 2023 (VAN)
7th 2026 (VAN)
1st 2023 (NYI)
2nd 2023 (VAN)
3rd 2025 (VAN)

Incoming:
3rd 2022 (VAN)
4th 2023 (NYR)
1st 2023 (NYI)
3rd 2023 (TOR)
4th 2023 (DET)
4th 2024 (VAN)

I actually used this as a jumping off point to look at how the trades they've down have affected the team. Players, Cap, and who's still on the roster/organization. Italicized players were, primarily, junior or AHL players.

Players
Outgoing:
Travis Hamonic (RD)
Tyler Motte (W)
Jason Dickinson (C/LW)
Michael DiPietro (G)
Jonathany Myrenberg (RD)
Bo Horvat (C)
William Lockwood (W)
Riley Stillman (LD)
Luke Schenn (RD)
Curtis Lazar (C/RW)
Wyatt Kalynuk (LD)
Tanner Pearson (LW)

Incoming:
Travos Dermott (LD/RD)
Riley Stillman (LD)
Jack Studnicka (C/RW)
Ethan Bear (RD)
Lane Pederson (C)
Anthony Beauvillier (W)
Aatu Raty (C)
Vitali Kravtsov (W)
Josh Bloom (W)
Filip Hronek (RD)
Casey DeSmith (G)

The majority of these trades have happened around the deadline. Dickinson/Stillman and Pearson/DeSmith were in the offseason. Bear & Studnicka were early in the season. Horvat was right before the All-Star break. Hamonic, Motte, Stillman/Bloom, Schenn, Lazar, Hronek, and Kravtsov. However, all of this is to build a playoff team and keep Pettersson here so...

On-Roster
Anthony Beauvillier
Filip Hronek
Casey DeSmith
Jack Studnicka
Aatu Raty
Josh Bloom
Vitali Kravtsov

Bear would surely be here if he didn't destroy his shoulder. I have Kravtsov as still part of the organization since they retain his rights. Studnicka is competing for the 13th forward position but it's really the top three that make any sort of difference.

I also looked at the cap implications of all the trades since two of the trades were made to help with that. This isn't anywhere near accurate and is mostly useless information since a person traded during the season has a lower cap number than the off-season.

Cap
Outgoing:
16.6m

Incoming:
16.6375m

It might be more prudent to look at who they've traded out that would have affected the cap going into the last two seasons. I'll count players for the remaining of their contracts but for full seasons only. Dickinson is last season and this one. Lazar for this one and next.

Dickinson = 5.3m
Lazar = 2.0m
Pearson = 3.25m

Total: 10.55m

Dermott = 1.5m
Beauvillier = 4.15m
Hronek = 4.4m
DeSmith = 1.8m

Total: 11.85m

So what does all this mean? They've basically changed the tools in the toolbox. A RETOOL if you will. The only major moves they've done, in both free agency and trades, is moving Horvat and bringing in Hronek. Those trades are connected too. Otherwise, a bunch of players have been moved out and a few are on the roster. Only one of them, Hronek, is expected to be on the team beyond this season. Ideally Raty and Bloom make the team over the next few seasons.

 

[arttk]

Lol, you make a bunch of assumptions and strawmen about me. I ask some simple questions and you literally cannot answer.

You tell me! You already know everything! You said you already know why preferred plan is, which "guys" I'm part of, and the exact likelihood the plan's success!

why not just enlighten me then? open to be humbled

 

[sting101]

Player--AAV---PP/60--ATOI (3yrs avg)

Horvat 5.5--2.03--20:02---------Kuzmenko 5.5--3.08--16:14

OEL 7.26--0.87--21:19------------Hronek 4.40--1.14--22:18
Hamonic 3.00--0.88--18:50------Soucy 3.25--1.05--16:27
Schenn 0.85--1.14--15:27---------Cole 3.00--0.82--17:39

Pearson 3.25--1.62--16:10--------Mikhayev 4.75--2.32--15:23
Dickinson 2.65--0.93--15:04-----Beauvillier 4.15--2.05--16:30

Motte 1.23--1.53--13:43-----------Suter 1.60--1.58--15:43
Sutter 1.13--1.15--15:04-----------Blueger 1.90--1.76--14:11

Halak 2.75--.902------------------DeSmith 1.80--.905

 

[MS]

A couple things to point out that this management group has traded away one more draft pick than they've acquired. I'd be remiss if I didn't admit that the Canucks have traded out the more valuable picks than they've acquired (two 2nds).

Draft Picks
Outgoing:
3rd 2022 (WPG)
2nd 2024 (VAN)
5th 2023 (VAN)
7th 2026 (VAN)
1st 2023 (NYI)
2nd 2023 (VAN)
3rd 2025 (VAN)

Incoming:
3rd 2022 (VAN)
4th 2023 (NYR)
1st 2023 (NYI)
3rd 2023 (TOR)
4th 2023 (DET)
4th 2024 (VAN)

I actually used this as a jumping off point to look at how the trades they've down have affected the team. Players, Cap, and who's still on the roster/organization. Italicized players were, primarily, junior or AHL players.

Players
Outgoing:
Travis Hamonic (RD)
Tyler Motte (W)
Jason Dickinson (C/LW)
Michael DiPietro (G)
Jonathany Myrenberg (RD)
Bo Horvat (C)
William Lockwood (W)
Riley Stillman (LD)
Luke Schenn (RD)
Curtis Lazar (C/RW)
Wyatt Kalynuk (LD)
Tanner Pearson (LW)

Incoming:
Travos Dermott (LD/RD)
Riley Stillman (LD)
Jack Studnicka (C/RW)
Ethan Bear (RD)
Lane Pederson (C)
Anthony Beauvillier (W)
Aatu Raty (C)
Vitali Kravtsov (W)
Josh Bloom (W)
Filip Hronek (RD)
Casey DeSmith (G)

The majority of these trades have happened around the deadline. Dickinson/Stillman and Pearson/DeSmith were in the offseason. Bear & Studnicka were early in the season. Horvat was right before the All-Star break. Hamonic, Motte, Stillman/Bloom, Schenn, Lazar, Hronek, and Kravtsov. However, all of this is to build a playoff team and keep Pettersson here so...

On-Roster
Anthony Beauvillier
Filip Hronek
Casey DeSmith
Jack Studnicka
Aatu Raty
Josh Bloom
Vitali Kravtsov

Bear would surely be here if he didn't destroy his shoulder. I have Kravtsov as still part of the organization since they retain his rights. Studnicka is competing for the 13th forward position but it's really the top three that make any sort of difference.

I also looked at the cap implications of all the trades since two of the trades were made to help with that. This isn't anywhere near accurate and is mostly useless information since a person traded during the season has a lower cap number than the off-season.

Cap
Outgoing:
16.6m

Incoming:
16.6375m

It might be more prudent to look at who they've traded out that would have affected the cap going into the last two seasons. I'll count players for the remaining of their contracts but for full seasons only. Dickinson is last season and this one. Lazar for this one and next.

Dickinson = 5.3m
Lazar = 2.0m
Pearson = 3.25m

Total: 10.55m

Dermott = 1.5m
Beauvillier = 4.15m
Hronek = 4.4m
DeSmith = 1.8m

Total: 11.85m

So what does all this mean? They've basically changed the tools in the toolbox. A RETOOL if you will. The only major moves they've done, in both free agency and trades, is moving Horvat and bringing in Hronek. Those trades are connected too. Otherwise, a bunch of players have been moved out and a few are on the roster. Only one of them, Hronek, is expected to be on the team beyond this season. Ideally Raty and Bloom make the team over the next few seasons.

They've traded 1 more pick than they've acquired but also have acquired two u-20 prospects in Raty and Bloom and only moved 1 in Myrenberg so the overall 'prospect pool' impact of trades is basically neutral.

If anything I think they've been too conservative about moving futures.

 

[arttk]

They've traded 1 more pick than they've acquired but also have acquired two u-20 prospects in Raty and Bloom and only moved 1 in Myrenberg so the overall 'prospect pool' impact of trades is basically neutral.

If anything I think they've been too conservative about moving futures.

Also made it up by picking up guys like Hirose/McWard who would be like a good 2/3rd round picks.

I think we all recognize, yes keeping and having more picks is the ideal outcome but reality is there are issues on the big team and there needs to be some kind of compromise.

 

[credulous]

i don't really have a problem with the volume of picks moved. just the returns are really underwhelming. dermott, studnicka, stillman, kravtsov, pederson and bear amounted to basically nothing and hronek came at a really high price. (i'm not including raty and beauvillier because those were "futures" in the sense that they moved horvat for them). i really hate moving futures for players you hope will be a 5th/6th dman or 11th/12th forward. that to me is a total failure of planning because you can fill those spots easily in free agency or on the waiver wire. if you get really stuck (like you need a backup goalie suddenly) then it's fine to do a couple of those trades but the canucks have made a lot of them. way more than is reasonable in my opinion

if the deals they make are more like the hronek trade where they identify a player they think can be an impact piece and spend whatever it takes then i'm generally okay with it (aside: i've been very critical of the hronek deal but that's because i think hronek was the wrong target not because i think it was the wrong idea). i think they should have targeted chychrun, pld, debrincat (the second time around) and newhook given what they cost for the acquiring teams. those are all players that could really help elevate this roster

 

[MS]

Also made it up by picking up guys like Hirose/McWard who would be like a good 2/3rd round picks.

I think we all recognize, yes keeping and having more picks is the ideal outcome but reality is there are issues on the big team and there needs to be some kind of compromise.

Yes, the overall system is massively improved (both in terms of the quality of prospect and the way things are being run) and the NHL roster is younger and better. But lets keep acting like they're making Jim Benning-OEL sort of crazy short-term moves.

I said from the moment Benning was fired (and before) that the only way to straighten things out was to bleed some picks to get rid of garbage.

And yeah, obviously you like to have picks. But the way fans overrate the value/importance of picks that aren't lottery 1st-rounders is absolutely comical.

 

[vancityluongo]

no my point is that you can keep cost down for the bottom of the lineup just by not signing players like jay beagle and brandon sutter to outsized contracts and that you don't need any kind of special competency to do so. it's literally table stakes for decent nhl teams

there's no inherent advantage to having a player like arshdeep bains that came up through the system over a free agent signing like dakota joshua that stepped right onto the roster

while i agree with you completely that getting bottom of the lineup guys or even mikheyev level players at free agency prices literally does nothing to move the needle other than to keep pace with other teams spending to the cap (ie. 90% of teams across the league)... i think if you can cycle out guys like garland who are either overpaid or being paid at a market rate, and replace them with guys like bains and/or joshua who cost 1/5th the price and offer 90% of the performance of a garland or beauvillier - that's where you open up the space over time to pursue signing a william nylander in free agency vs a mikheyev. and high end nylander level players can and do generate actual value, even when signed in free agency. but you have to pick the best of the bunch out of the free agent players / prospects and not just get replacement 4th liners, but guys who have true middle-6 potential for 4th line dollars.

that's the only path i see to any level of success for the canucks - in the next two or three years, we have to *upgrade* on guys like soucy, blueger, beauvillier with pettersson2, raty, lekkerimaki, respectively, while paying the latter guys a fraction of what the current ones make, and utilizing the new found cap space on star level players. you're right that we've started phasing out the bottom of the lineup beagle types (which can be done by just not signing those contracts), but our middle of the lineup players are still expensive and not value generating. they're at market value, which is an improvement on negative value, but it's hardly what creates contenders.

the alternative is hoping / wishing / praying on magic sprouts - podkolzin becomes bertuzzi, hoglander becomes marchand, willander is a #1, etc. while simultaneously nothing changes with the current core guys - petey stays in van and is a 100 point player, hughes is in norris contention year over year, miller just doesn't age, kuzmenko stays as the best percentage shooter in nhl history, demko re-signs and bounces back (reversing the current start of a john gibson trend) etc. i think those might be the only two paths because they have no assets or ability (ie. no picks) to do anything else.

 

[bossram]

They've traded 1 more pick than they've acquired but also have acquired two u-20 prospects in Raty and Bloom and only moved 1 in Myrenberg so the overall 'prospect pool' impact of trades is basically neutral.

If anything I think they've been too conservative about moving futures.

This. If the goal is to be a competitive team right now, (and evidently is because everyone seems to agree missing the playoffs will be a huge failure and could force Petey to leave...) then they should have been more aggressive.

 

[credulous]

while i agree with you completely that getting bottom of the lineup guys or even mikheyev level players at free agency prices literally does nothing to move the needle other than to keep pace with other teams spending to the cap (ie. 90% of teams across the league)... i think if you can cycle out guys like garland who are either overpaid or being paid at a market rate, and replace them with guys like bains and/or joshua who cost 1/5th the price and offer 90% of the performance of a garland or beauvillier - that's where you open up the space over time to pursue signing a william nylander in free agency vs a mikheyev. and high end nylander level players can and do generate actual value, even when signed in free agency. but you have to pick the best of the bunch out of the free agent players / prospects and not just get replacement 4th liners, but guys who have true middle-6 potential for 4th line dollars.

absolutely. no disagreement. i just took issue with the idea that you're getting value from your system if it's producing players like joshua, wolanin and di giuseppe because -- as evidenced by the fact vancouver *did* get them for free -- you can get those players for free

the goal of the system should be what you said; replace beauvillier or garland or cole. the 4th liners and 6th dmen you get along the way don't really matter

 

[bossram]

why not just enlighten me then? open to be humbled

No you're not. You refuse to argue in good faith, move the goalposts, and invent fake arguments to attribute to people who never used them. Very consistent behaviour from you. It would be pointless.

 

[arttk]

No you're not. You refuse to argue in good faith, move the goalposts, and invent fake arguments to attribute to people who never used them. Very consistent behaviour from you. It would be pointless.

i am ready to be enlighten, it seems like you are the one refusing to elaborate here.

 

[andora]

absolutely. no disagreement. i just took issue with the idea that you're getting value from your system if it's producing players like joshua, wolanin and di giuseppe because -- as evidenced by the fact vancouver *did* get them for free -- you can get those players for free

the goal of the system should be what you said; replace beauvillier or garland or cole. the 4th liners and 6th dmen you get along the way don't really matter

But you cant get one without the other - some of those 6d or 4 line guys elevate and do replace older players

You are successful when you consistenly produce NHL players and you exceed expectations if you can develop 2/3 line players and 3/4 defence even semi consistently

 

[credulous]

But you cant get one without the other - some of those 6d or 4 line guys elevate and do replace older players

You are successful when you consistenly produce NHL players and you exceed expectations if you can develop 2/3 line players and 3/4 defence even semi consistently

i'm not saying you don't want to get 4th liners and 6th dmen out of your system or that it's somehow bad. it's a natural consequence of having a system capable of promoting any players. i just don't think it helps improve the team. getting guys who play up the lineup and save you from signing ian cole or resigning beauvillier is what improves the team

 

[pitseleh]

This. If the goal is to be a competitive team right now, (and evidently is because everyone seems to agree missing the playoffs will be a huge failure and could force Petey to leave...) then they should have been more aggressive.

Yeah, absolutely. While a lot of the focus has been on whether the Pettersson comments support the path taken, the key takeaway for me is that it reinforces haven’t been aggressive enough.

It’s not just that they have pushed their window forward with their approach but also that their approach is apparently going to blow up if they don’t win this season. And by their own admission they’ve only built a team that needs everything to go right to make the playoffs. Incredibly risky strategy to only go half way on.

 

[MS]

Yeah, absolutely. While a lot of the focus has been on whether the Pettersson comments support the path taken, the key takeaway for me is that it reinforces haven’t been aggressive enough.

It’s not just that they have pushed their window forward with their approach but also that their approach is apparently going to blow up if they don’t win this season. And by their own admission they’ve only built a team that needs everything to go right to make the playoffs. Incredibly risky strategy to only go half way on.

You'll get no argument from me that they've been a bit penny wise but pound foolish in that they've pragmatically gone about making sensible moves but that any gains there have been cancelled out by the amount of time wasted in the process.

 

[vancityluongo]

Yeah, absolutely. While a lot of the focus has been on whether the Pettersson comments support the path taken, the key takeaway for me is that it reinforces haven’t been aggressive enough.

It’s not just that they have pushed their window forward with their approach but also that their approach is apparently going to blow up if they don’t win this season. And by their own admission they’ve only built a team that needs everything to go right to make the playoffs. Incredibly risky strategy to only go half way on.

but how could they have realistically been more aggressive, aside from trading their 2023-2025 1st round picks? that's been the problem all along - they don't have enough in liquid assets that they could actually even try to cash in on, let alone having assets available when it turns into a buyer's market (ie. last offseason when good wingers were going for nothing). like, let's say they pushed hard and used a pick to dump garland or myers and freed up that cap space. who was the available improvement - debrincat? tarasenko? taylor hall?? karlsson???

impatience can also hurt. but i agree with you generally - the vision and the timeline they've set out makes execution that much more imperative, and also that much harder to achieve. and what they have now is a half-way result

 

[andora]

i'm not saying you don't want to get 4th liners and 6th dmen out of your system or that it's somehow bad. it's a natural consequence of having a system capable of promoting any players. i just don't think it helps improve the team. getting guys who play up the lineup and save you from signing ian cole or resigning beauvillier is what improves the team

This is a chicken egg thing we are getting too.. or something close?

 

[arttk]

getting guys who play up the lineup and save you from signing ian cole or resigning beauvillier is what improves the team

seems like yoyu are assuming that the idea of having a pipe of bottom 6 players means we are pumping out players that are barely bottom 6 players.

I think the goal is to pump out players that fit the system and are better than the role they are suppose to play. Like if we promote Bains, he shouldn't be just a barely 4th line kinda guy but he should be a guy that is good enough to replace Beau in the future but will play for us on the 3rd/4th line while being on ELC. If we promote Hirose, he should be playing in the bottom paring but has potential to be a 2nd paring guy while being on ELC.

I think our pipe is starting to look more like that vs just a pipeline of barely adequate 4th line fringe players.

 

[sting101]

IMO it's an indictment of the club. Everything they've done is in service of making the playoffs now. The majority of the cap benefit of the OEL buyout is for this season only. They've been scrambling to clear cap during training camp for both seasons they've been on board.

Given all that and they still don't believe they are a real playoff team, it reflects very poorly on the job they've done.

Not a fan of keeping Pettersson?

What would you have done with OEL?

Last year it was to facilitate acquiring Ethan Bear and this year it was much the same to facilitate Suter and Blueger vs hanging on whether Pearson could come back and if he did how reliable was he going to be vs paying a 3rd to balance some roles.

They recognize that there is still work to do. Would you rather platitudes or outright poor evaluations of where they are?

 

[bossram]

Not a fan of keeping Pettersson?

What would you have done with OEL?

Last year it was to facilitate acquiring Ethan Bear and this year it was much the same to facilitate Suter and Blueger vs hanging on whether Pearson could come back and if he did how reliable was he going to be vs paying a 3rd to balance some roles.

They recognize that there is still work to do. Would you rather platitudes or outright poor evaluations of where they are?

I'd rather execution of smart moves and moving toward a logical, clear goal.

They may lose Pettersson anyway. Then what? Was this a good plan? Everything they've done is for the short-term goal of making the playoffs this season. And they're not even confident in that. It speaks to very poor execution of their own mission.

 

[pitseleh]

but how could they have realistically been more aggressive, aside from trading their 2023-2025 1st round picks? that's been the problem all along - they don't have enough in liquid assets that they could actually even try to cash in on, let alone having assets available when it turns into a buyer's market (ie. last offseason when good wingers were going for nothing). like, let's say they pushed hard and used a pick to dump garland or myers and freed up that cap space. who was the available improvement - debrincat? tarasenko? taylor hall?? karlsson???

I think they absolutely should have traded a first at this stage.

The biggest missed opportunity to me is not stepping in when the Sanheim trade fell apart. Dreger even reported at one point that the Flyers were trying to get the Canucks to bite but they wouldn’t.

Taking out the Hayes elements, the deal was basically Sanheim for the 25th pick and the $26 million left on Krug’s deal. You can quibble about the exact value but something like the team’s 2024 first, Boeser and maybe even Myers is in the same ballpark.

Orlov, Provorov, and Karlsson also moved - they weren’t as good of fits but could have worked with a bit of maneuvering. Suspect that Carolina probably listens on Pesce too if a high pick were involved.

A top pairing caliber defender to replace Myers would be a massive improvement, probably in the range of $5-10 million in surplus value I would expect.

 

[pitseleh]

You'll get no argument from me that they've been a bit penny wise but pound foolish in that they've pragmatically gone about making sensible moves but that any gains there have been cancelled out by the amount of time wasted in the process.

Some people have been unfairly comparing management to Benning, but the downside with this group is probably more along the lines of Dave Nonis.

 

[sting101]

I'd rather execution of smart moves and moving toward a logical, clear goal.

They may lose Pettersson anyway. Then what? Was this a good plan? Everything they've done is for the short-term goal of making the playoffs this season. And they're not even confident in that. It speaks to very poor execution of their own mission.

That's not really an answer though your just saying you dont like how they are going about it without showing what you would have liked to see instead specifically