Management Threads | Structure. Standards. Habits.

[BrentSopelsHair]

Ooohhhh so this wasn't an earnest exchange.

This was grudge posting because you've felt offended by my opinions in the past.

Good use of time, carry on bruv.

This is also completely dishonest response. Either you are genuinely unable to understand the criticism of your stance (in which case please don't look up when it rains) or you're bailing on this by pretending it was some sort of personal cheap shot.

Lame behaviour, but this type of childish, petty behaviour just serves to remind me that Canucks hockey is so f***ing back!!!

 

[MS]

I don't want to wade into this pissing contest but I will add this :

If you want to say OMG DUMB FANS WERE FOOLED BY THE BRUCE BUMP AND NOW ARE GETTING FOOLED AGAIN I think it's a very superficial analysis of things but at least there's a 'fooled me once ...' thing to it.

When we're discussing Allvin's views on coach bumps, *he clearly did not believe that the performance under Bruce was sustainable* and actually basically said as much, criticizing the system play and saying they were propped up by goaltending. And he was right. So if he's saying he believes they'll have a significant bump based on coaching, his track record should actually give those views more credibility and he shouldn't be lumped in with the people singing Bruce There It Is.

 

[Nucker101]

I think there's some truth to both sides. The team played better under Tocchet but also some of that bad luck under Bruce(yes it's possible to be unlucky and bad), inevitably reverted as well. Even if Bruce remained as head coach I don't think the PK and goals against average would've continued to be as bad as it was, even with less structure.

I've seen numerous posts where posters basically use the PK% rate under Tocchet and assume it's just going to translate over 82 games, or even get better due to the off-season additions while ignoring that the PK rate was inflated due to some puck luck levelling out over the course of an 82 game season.

4V5 PK Stats

From October - January:
Expected GA/60: 8.11
Actual GA/60: 12.04
Difference: +3.93 GA/60


From February onwards:
Expected GA/60: 8.71
Actual GA/60: 6.81
Difference: -1.90 GA/60


Expected GA is far from prefect, but when the differences are this significant, there's probably some reasonable conclusions to draw here. Demko returning to form, plus puck luck going from negative to positive.

 

[RobsonStreet]

I think there's some truth to both sides. The team played better under Tocchet but also some of that bad luck under Bruce(yes it's possible to be unlucky and bad), inevitably reverted as well. Even if Bruce remained as head coach I don't think the PK and goals against average would've continued to be as bad as it was, even with less structure.

I've seen numerous posts where posters basically use the PK% rate under Tocchet and assume it's just going to translate over 82 games, or even get better due to the off-season additions while ignoring that the PK rate was inflated due to some puck luck levelling out over the course of an 82 game season.

4V5 PK Stats

From October - January:
Expected GA/60: 8.11
Actual GA/60: 12.04
Difference: +3.93 GA/60


From February onwards:
Expected GA/60: 8.71
Actual GA/60: 6.81
Difference: -1.90 GA/60


Expected GA is far from prefect, but when the differences are this significant, there's probably some reasonable conclusions to draw here. Demko returning to form, plus puck luck going from negative to positive.

Where Boudreau benefited from goaltending his first season, Tocchet got timely scoring; the team win percentage was a fair bit better than you would expect based on goal-differential (in baseball terms, cluster luck). I’m not convinced this is sustainable either, but the roster looks good enough that average luck probably has them fighting for a bubble spot. We’ll see.

 

[RobertKron]

I don't want to wade into this pissing contest but I will add this :

If you want to say OMG DUMB FANS WERE FOOLED BY THE BRUCE BUMP AND NOW ARE GETTING FOOLED AGAIN I think it's a very superficial analysis of things but at least there's a 'fooled me once ...' thing to it.

When we're discussing Allvin's views on coach bumps, *he clearly did not believe that the performance under Bruce was sustainable* and actually basically said as much, criticizing the system play and saying they were propped up by goaltending. And he was right. So if he's saying he believes they'll have a significant bump based on coaching, his track record should actually give those views more credibility and he shouldn't be lumped in with the people singing Bruce There It Is.

Absolutely. Like, personally, I think it's more likely that the change under Tocchet is sustainable than that under Boudreau.

There are a million totally sensible ways to argue in favour of this. Condescendingly equating anyone skeptical of this to a flat earther, and Allvin to a scientist "whose knowledge is literally based on the summation of all human knowedge" is not one of them.

 

[mossey3535]

Defensive structure is easier to maintain consistently than a free-flowing offence. The entire history of the league shows you that. The Canucks have a decent amount of talent in certain areas, so they shouldn't be THAT bad. That's why I believe the Tocchet bump will be sustainable, because his style of play is achievable with less talent than we have currently. It's been successfully employed by low talent low budget teams for ages. Bruce's style needs a lot of talent and it needs that talent to be playing well AND we had less talent on the blueline. That's why it was easy to see that there was a good chance that it wouldn't continue. Because even during Bruce there it is we saw Demko bailing them out every night.

 

[RandV]

I feel like a lot of the negativity is just pessimism using coincidences to decide a future outcome. If you trace it step by step it's a couple of different things happening.

2021-22 season: Following the disastrous 2020 summer and the following 2020-21 season killing the good will from the 2020 playoffs, the team started demoralized for the 2021-22 season when Benning & Green were brought back yet again. The team had a huge bounce when they were all fired, Bruce was brought in, and hockey was fun again. Upon closer examination though, the team was terrible defensively - both in roster construction and in game plan, but were getting propped up by Demko playing lights out.

2022-23 season: Demko falls off, gets injured, and all the defensive issues are exposed. He's fired, Tocchet's brought in and starts implementing proper defensive structure, and the team rebounds playing well in the latter half of the season.

It's two seasons where the team started off poorly then rebounded after a coaching change, but in both cases the cause and change were different. The team came with a lot of problems for new management and this is knocking them off one at a time. It by no means guarantees success this season, any number of things can go right or wrong over an 82 game schedule, just saying the 'it happened twice so it will happen again' stance is needlessly pessimistic.

 

[F A N]

I feel like a lot of the negativity is just pessimism using coincidences to decide a future outcome. If you trace it step by step it's a couple of different things happening.

2021-22 season: Following the disastrous 2020 summer and the following 2020-21 season killing the good will from the 2020 playoffs, the team started demoralized for the 2021-22 season when Benning & Green were brought back yet again. The team had a huge bounce when they were all fired, Bruce was brought in, and hockey was fun again. Upon closer examination though, the team was terrible defensively - both in roster construction and in game plan, but were getting propped up by Demko playing lights out.

2022-23 season: Demko falls off, gets injured, and all the defensive issues are exposed. He's fired, Tocchet's brought in and starts implementing proper defensive structure, and the team rebounds playing well in the latter half of the season.

You don't think the Demko that came back from injury was closer to the 2021-2022 Demko to the one that started 2022-2023? Could Demko alone play a big part of how the Canucks played under Tocchet, especially on the PK?

It's two seasons where the team started off poorly then rebounded after a coaching change, but in both cases the cause and change were different. The team came with a lot of problems for new management and this is knocking them off one at a time. It by no means guarantees success this season, any number of things can go right or wrong over an 82 game schedule, just saying the 'it happened twice so it will happen again' stance is needlessly pessimistic.

I expect the Canucks to be better since the D has been revamped. If not, I think we really have to look at the core. At some point you can't return a similar roster and expect a different result.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

Have not been following the team much at all lately.


Any news on Mikheyevs health?

 

[rypper]

Have not been following the team much at all lately.


Any news on Mikheyevs health?

Last thing I heard was he was going to miss preseason games but be ready to start the season.

 

[Peen]

Have not been following the team much at all lately.


Any news on Mikheyevs health?

likely won't be ready for game 1

heard sat today talking about how if mikheyev is ready a week into the season then they won't want to put him on LTI bc that's a 10 game minimum (he said this in regards to the pearson trade but i would assume that he knows something about mikheyev's likely timeline in that)

so yeah i think that the timeline is probably around a month but if he ends up on LTI then it's more like 6 weeks or so

 

[PuckMunchkin]

likely won't be ready for game 1

heard sat today talking about how if mikheyev is ready a week into the season then they won't want to put him on LTI bc that's a 10 game minimum (he said this in regards to the pearson trade but i would assume that he knows something about mikheyev's likely timeline in that)

so yeah i think that the timeline is probably around a month but if he ends up on LTI then it's more like 6 weeks or so

Oh man...

 

[Reverend Mayhem]

I feel like a lot of the negativity is just pessimism using coincidences to decide a future outcome. If you trace it step by step it's a couple of different things happening.

2021-22 season: Following the disastrous 2020 summer and the following 2020-21 season killing the good will from the 2020 playoffs, the team started demoralized for the 2021-22 season when Benning & Green were brought back yet again. The team had a huge bounce when they were all fired, Bruce was brought in, and hockey was fun again. Upon closer examination though, the team was terrible defensively - both in roster construction and in game plan, but were getting propped up by Demko playing lights out.

2022-23 season: Demko falls off, gets injured, and all the defensive issues are exposed. He's fired, Tocchet's brought in and starts implementing proper defensive structure, and the team rebounds playing well in the latter half of the season.

It's two seasons where the team started off poorly then rebounded after a coaching change, but in both cases the cause and change were different. The team came with a lot of problems for new management and this is knocking them off one at a time. It by no means guarantees success this season, any number of things can go right or wrong over an 82 game schedule, just saying the 'it happened twice so it will happen again' stance is needlessly pessimistic.

The 2022-23 season was abysmal and head-scratching. Boudreau took the hit for it, but there really shouldn't be any good excuses this time. If we are making excuses again in 3 months, that would be incredibly discouraging. I guess it really would be a Boudreau thing.

 

[RobertKron]

I feel like a lot of the negativity is just pessimism using coincidences to decide a future outcome. If you trace it step by step it's a couple of different things happening.

2021-22 season: Following the disastrous 2020 summer and the following 2020-21 season killing the good will from the 2020 playoffs, the team started demoralized for the 2021-22 season when Benning & Green were brought back yet again. The team had a huge bounce when they were all fired, Bruce was brought in, and hockey was fun again. Upon closer examination though, the team was terrible defensively - both in roster construction and in game plan, but were getting propped up by Demko playing lights out.

2022-23 season: Demko falls off, gets injured, and all the defensive issues are exposed. He's fired, Tocchet's brought in and starts implementing proper defensive structure, and the team rebounds playing well in the latter half of the season.

It's two seasons where the team started off poorly then rebounded after a coaching change, but in both cases the cause and change were different. The team came with a lot of problems for new management and this is knocking them off one at a time. It by no means guarantees success this season, any number of things can go right or wrong over an 82 game schedule, just saying the 'it happened twice so it will happen again' stance is needlessly pessimistic.

Generally agree with the gist of what you're putting forward, and I do expect the improvement under Tocchet to have more staying power than Boudreau, but one common thread for years now has basically been that this team can look really good and like they've maybe turned a corner when things are rolling, but when the edges start to fray it has a tendency to unravel both very quickly and absolutely spectacularly.

I'm inclined to want to give some leeway on this because it's just generally been such an absolute f***ing clown show here for so long, and by all accounts Tocchet should hopefully be able to implement some reinforcing structure that has probably not been there for the better part of a decade, and hopefully some of the roster changes should also bring some improved resiliency, but I can absolutely understand folks who aren't willing to trust until someone has given them an enormous bowl of pudding, and I think there's definitely more to that position than just misinterpreting some coincidences.

 

[Coffee]

@rypper @PuckMunchkin Does anyone have a clue what JR is busy with? you think they still discuss every little thing? Allvin and JR

 

[rypper]

@rypper @PuckMunchkin Does anyone have a clue what JR is busy with? you think they still discuss every little thing? Allvin and JR

I imagine JR is involved with everything, he just took time off from speaking to the media.

 

[RobertKron]

@rypper @PuckMunchkin Does anyone have a clue what JR is busy with? you think they still discuss every little thing? Allvin and JR

He's freed himself of hockey ops drudgery so he can devote his time to sourcing the new seats for the arena.

 

[F A N]

likely won't be ready for game 1

heard sat today talking about how if mikheyev is ready a week into the season then they won't want to put him on LTI bc that's a 10 game minimum (he said this in regards to the pearson trade but i would assume that he knows something about mikheyev's likely timeline in that)

so yeah i think that the timeline is probably around a month but if he ends up on LTI then it's more like 6 weeks or so

The schedule is pretty light once you get past the first 4 games of the season so if Mik is pretty close it makes sense to leave him off LTI.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

I imagine JR is involved with everything, he just took time off from speaking to the media.

I think this is it. He is still very much on top of the decision making process.



Its weird... his job is to answer the hard questions and the way last year went there were a lot of hard questions to be asked.

He gets angry with the media and the public and does not speak for 9 months...

 

[F A N]

He gets angry with the media and the public and does not speak for 9 months...

So he "zip[ped] it?"

 

[Jack Burton]

Ya I'm just not feeling it this season.
Too many weird vibes surrounding this team. I'm not impressed at all with this new regime and the moves they have made. Sure you wanna claim that the D is improved but i say nope. Same old same old garbage D with no mobility or speed to actually get themself in position to stand someone up on the blue line ,stop the cycle or clear the front of the net. Pettersson and Miller will feel the full effect of losing Horvat and not replacing that NHL center depth which is key in todays game, their on ice body language over the last couple of seasons have already proven to me that their not up the task.
Throw in a sh*t load of non playmaking wingers and a coach who is going to play "line salad" to start the season as he "figures it out" is a recipe for disaster.

I honesty only see a top 6 & top 4 D that I can count on one hand with and 18 other guys who you don't really want to give more than ten minutes of NHL ice time too.

I understand that a debt has to be paid for the Benning years and i think that 1st payment is due in just a couple of weeks.

 

[Peen]

Harry Sese out per PA

 

[credulous]

Harry Sese out per PA

even if you assume mikheyev had nothing to do with him he still had to go for boeser and pearson's rehab issues last season

 

[Vector]

Harry Sese out per PA

Yup. Confirmed in this interview.

Health and human performance consultant Dr. Harry Sese is no longer listed on the club’s website. Are you able to detail whether your club has made changes to the medical staff this summer?

Harry was a consultant for us last year. We promoted Roman Kaszczij from Abbotsford as our new head athletic trainer, and the addition to Alex Trinca from Pittsburgh.

Is Dr. Sese still consulting?

He’s not with us anymore, he’s with the PGA tour.

 

[petterdaddy]

Harry Sese out per PA

Thank god