Management Threads | Structure. Standards. Habits.

[MarkMM]

So Allvin was quoted as stating that the team "saw a huge boost in momentum after a coaching change" and he's very hopeful about that, seemingly forgetting that the exact same thing happened with Boudreau the previous year and we all know how that turned out.

Management used Boudreau as a scapegoat all season and fired him right before the easiest stretch of the Canucks schedule.

There's more evidence that the team will quit on their coach than buy-in at this point in time.

We'll have to see how it plays out, but it's not unreasonable to look at Boudreau and say that his win rate wasn't sustainable given the lack of structure the team was playing with. And it's not just management saying that, Bear's detailed commentary were validating what pundits, the eye test and Allvin were all saying about Boudreau's approach.

If Tocchet can get the team to buy in to being more disciplined, structured defensively, fit and competitive, then that could have a big enough positive impact on the team that combined with the targeted changes they've made on the PK and defense can lead to a very different team.

 

[arttk]

i'm not giving them any credit for improving the roster when their "big moves" were ian cole and teddy blueger

the top of this roster is identical to last year save that they've replaced horvat with hronek

forgive me for not expecting different results

Issue is not top of the roster

 

[Diogenes92]

We'll have to see how it plays out, but it's not unreasonable to look at Boudreau and say that his win rate wasn't sustainable given the lack of structure the team was playing with. And it's not just management saying that, Bear's detailed commentary were validating what pundits, the eye test and Allvin were all saying about Boudreau's approach.

If Tocchet can get the team to buy in to being more disciplined, structured defensively, fit and competitive, then that could have a big enough positive impact on the team that combined with the targeted changes they've made on the PK and defense can lead to a very different team.

It was certainly unreasonable to say such a thing when the Canucks were on that crazy tear after hiring Boudreau.

All they needed was a new voice to unlock their true potential.

And now all they needed was a sound defensive structure to make up for Boudreau's loose offensive apporach.

Its always seems to be a lack of results followed by a bunch of excuses.

 

[arttk]

All they needed was a new voice to unlock their true potential.

Actually nobody argued for that. I think people argued for a better coach than Green. I am pretty sure nobody was saying all we need were just good vibes.

 

[strattonius]

It was certainly unreasonable to say such a thing when the Canucks were on that crazy tear after hiring Boudreau.

All they needed was a new voice to unlock their true potential.

And now all they needed was a sound defensive structure to make up for Boudreau's loose offensive apporach.

Its always seems to be a lack of results followed by a bunch of excuses.

Boudreau was propped up by unsustainable goaltending. Demko was on fire and it bought Boudreau a lifeline.

The way Tocchet coached and got results last year is a much more repeatable process. When you couple that with our roster improvements, most notably our blueline, I think we will see a more competitive team night in night out.

This idea that Boudreau's coaching bump is much akin to Tocchet's and we are just repeating history is a lazy and anecdotal argument that lacks any context. I get our fans are basically in a state of shock and/or hopelessness but sometimes it just comes across overly pessimistic.

 

[Diogenes92]

Boudreau was propped up by unsustainable goaltending. Demko was on fire and it bought Boudreau a lifeline.

The way Tocchet coached and got results last year is a much more repeatable process. When you couple that with our roster improvements, most notably our blueline, I think we will see a more competitive team night in night out.

This idea that Boudreau's coaching bump is much akin to Tocchet's and we are just repeating history is a lazy and anecdotal argument that lacks any context. I get our fans are basically in a state of shock and/or hopelessness but sometimes it just comes across overly pessimistic.

Alright, so Demko is basically the only reason for Boudreau's success. That wasn't the consensus last offseason but sure, let's go with that.

There is zero evidence that Tochett's approach will be successful this season. Results will need to come first and systems don't mean much if the players don't buy in and actually perform.

Soucy and Cole really don't move the needle much at all. Two #5 D that might help the PK. People are really overrating what those two will likely add to the team. Blueger and Suter are bottom 6 depth C's.

Its fine to be overly optimistic and its also fair to be pessimistic. I just dont think the optimists have a ton to bank on right now.

Lets see what happens in October. It would be nice to be proven wrong and actually have some meaningful playoff hockey this season. I just don't see it happening.

 

[andora]

There is zero evidence that Tochett's approach will be successful this season.

Earth shattering

And is it possible that the concept of the whole is greater than the sum of its parts exists?

I read the phrase so often about someone not moving the needle and it is getting lazy. Lots of things can move the needle on and off the ice - it just never gets acknowledged in discussing guys who arent scoring 50

 

[MarkMM]

Alright, so Demko is basically the only reason for Boudreau's success. That wasn't the consensus last offseason but sure, let's go with that.

There is zero evidence that Tochett's approach will be successful this season. Results will need to come first and systems don't mean much if the players don't buy in and actually perform.

Soucy and Cole really don't move the needle much at all. Two #5 D that might help the PK. People are really overrating what those two will likely add to the team. Blueger and Suter are bottom 6 depth C's.

Its fine to be overly optimistic and its also fair to be pessimistic. I just dont think the optimists have a ton to bank on right now.

Lets see what happens in October. It would be nice to be proven wrong and actually have some meaningful playoff hockey this season. I just don't see it happening.

You're also forgetting the addition of Hronek for a full season, maybe we're overrating him but he's definitely a big addition. Addition by subtraction by gettinng rid of OEL, and then on top of that Cole and Soucy, and then Blueger and Suter, and then the changes in structure and discipline from Tocchet, and then hopefully less of a circus with management clearly not believing in their coach and saying so publicly.

If you call out these things in isolation it doesn't look like much, but taken together it's not unreasonable to expect improvement. Not saying it makes us a contender but it collectively it's consistent movement in the right direction.

 

[arttk]

Alright, so Demko is basically the only reason for Boudreau's success. That wasn't the consensus last offseason but sure, let's go with that.

There is zero evidence that Tochett's approach will be successful this season. Results will need to come first and systems don't mean much if the players don't buy in and actually perform.

Soucy and Cole really don't move the needle much at all. Two #5 D that might help the PK. People are really overrating what those two will likely add to the team. Blueger and Suter are bottom 6 depth C's.

Its fine to be overly optimistic and its also fair to be pessimistic. I just dont think the optimists have a ton to bank on right now.

Lets see what happens in October. It would be nice to be proven wrong and actually have some meaningful playoff hockey this season. I just don't see it happening.

No there are other reasons, the team basically went all in for the rest of the season and they won a lot of the 50/50 games because of that. A lot of people argued that it’s not sustainable to have the team win purely around effort because human beings need f***ing rest and you can’t just have players overcome structural deficiency with pure effort.

 

[andora]

No there are other reasons, the team basically went all in for the rest of the season and they won a lot of the 50/50 games because of that. A lot of people argued that it’s not sustainable to have the team win purely around effort because human beings need f***ing rest and you can’t just have players overcome structural deficiency with pure effort.

Especially with extreme muscle loss

 

[HairyKneel]

There's more evidence that the team will quit on their coach than buy-in at this point in time.

Keep us in the loop.

 

[HairyKneel]

Cole has been a top 4 d for most of the last decade including just last season with one of the best teams in the league but now all of a sudden he will nosedive in Vancouver to be a bottom pairing guy.

You can’t make this shit up. It seems paramount to some folks to be right and want the team to crater so they can achieve their beloved burn it down rebuild.

If they piss the bed this year Peter will want out and there will be some substantial moves. The rage crew will get their wish and can high five each other and say they knew it all along.. I’m still not sure if it would get burned to the ground like the bitters want but change would happen. Big change.

I just want to see some playoffs for the Canucks this season. There’s lots of ways to build and rebuild on the fly. It doesn’t always have to be a tear down. Look at Boston, Florida, and even the 2011 Canucks for Christ sakes. They didn’t win but they were right there. There’s lots of ways to skin the cat.

 

[vancityluongo]

I appreciate the effort put into this post even if I largely disagree.

In terms of the 'core' you're usually talking about the best 5-6 guys on a squad. And in terms of the best 5 or 6 guys on this squad ... yes, it's very good.

Where this team struggled is with the middle tier of 6-8 players. That Myers/OEL/Pearson/Boeser/Dickinson/Garland/Hamonic group absolutely blew chunks. And mostly the problem was that it was just not a solid group of fundamentally sound 'system' players who do the right things to get results. It was a collection of lazy floaters, soft slugs, guys who had no PK utility.

Bringing in guys like Mikheyev/Soucy/Cole/Beauvillier doesn't look flashy, but it's a big deal to be replacing flaky players with solid pros who fit what the team is trying to do.

___________

As for the things you're talking about in terms of the plan ... again, it just isn't how it works.

And even more than 'it just isn't how it works' generally, in this specific case the recent Pettersson interview should tell us pretty unequivocally why the team was trading for Hroneks to be filling out the core around Pettersson/Hughes and why they were doing OEL buyouts and so on. Pettersson/Hughes are 2 of the best 5 players in the 53-year history of this franchise. It is *massive* that we have these players. These players aren't happy, and there is no way you simply sit on your hands for a few years hording picks only to watch them force their way out.

again, no argument from me on the middle tier being the problem. but question again; how do you continue to fix it? i think you're also of the belief that the team still isn't at contending status, even if this year should be an incremental improvement?

not sure i see how beauvillier, who for all intents and purposes was a cap dump, is a massive fit improvement on pearson, or how the team gets rid of the 4 guys still on the books from the group you mentioned (taking up nearly $21m in cap space this season) and replaces them in the lineup before pettersson's contract is up next season. mikheyev is a very good player, but he's unlikely to generate more value than his contract. it's a start to not have massive cap boat anchors tied to negative value players, but we're very far from having value generating contracts, and unlikely to get them anytime soon - hughes is the closest. but the remaining holes on the team are likely to be filled via free agency, or from the bottom of the lineup (ie. guys like joshua outperforming their short term contracts)

and we had a long back and forth on pettersson's comments - he made those after the hronek trade, so for all we know he hates filip hronek - because seriously, we have no idea what his goal or actual intent is. all we can infer is he's unhappy with the current status, presumably due to the years of losing. whether that means he wants to be in the playoffs this season at all costs, or he wants to be on a team that has a clear pathway to cup contention, my guess is as good as yours. but we're going to agree to disagree on this.

also, again dude - at no point did i say "hoard picks for a few years" and pretty sure i said the opposite. "pettersson will leave if we keep making draft picks" is as lazy, (or maybe just unnecessarily black-and-white) as "bedard-itis". i am in full agreement with you on direction!! you are correct, no team would just hoard picks at this stage, it is fantasy hockey manager / ea sports shit. but real teams have to really decide when and how they define their contending windows, and we can still disagree and discuss if the window the canucks are deciding to execute on makes sense.

 

[Diogenes92]

You're also forgetting the addition of Hronek for a full season, maybe we're overrating him but he's definitely a big addition. Addition by subtraction by gettinng rid of OEL, and then on top of that Cole and Soucy, and then Blueger and Suter, and then the changes in structure and discipline from Tocchet, and then hopefully less of a circus with management clearly not believing in their coach and saying so publicly.

If you call out these things in isolation it doesn't look like much, but taken together it's not unreasonable to expect improvement. Not saying it makes us a contender but it collectively it's consistent movement in the right direction.

What I'm saying is that I don't see a huge improvement on the horizon.

Hronek adds depth to the D, but is he really a #3 2nd pair anchor and core player as management and some fans are already stating? I'm not so sure.

Another issue at hand is that if there isn't a significant improvement in terms of points and at least a playoff berth, what does that mean for Petey's future with the team?

There is a lot riding on this season when the Canucks don't even have the odds in their favour to make the playoffs.

 

[vancityluongo]

Colorado is an example I like coming back to. They started with a core of MacKinnon/Rantanen/Landeskog/Girard and Makar on the way, and for two years were a wildcard seed not making much noise. Then over the next 3 years they add Grubauer, Kadri, Nichuskin, Burakovsky, Kadri, Toews, Lehkonen, Manson, etc, and that was the dominant stacked team that won the Cup. And they added those players basically out of their own pile of upcoming draft picks.

There are teams that can come out of a rebuild looking pretty stacked like currently New Jersey, and then there's teams that spend years tinkering and adding before finally winning. I feel like there's a lack of appreciation here for the latter when looking at the Canucks prospective future. And often when people look at those playoff teams and the depth they're a bit oblivious that they're comparing teams that loaded up at the deadline to a team in the off season.

agreed with this completely - and where one might define it as "possible" - i think it perfectly illustrates just how hard the challenge of putting together a contender right now is.

like i said, let's even pretend that hronek is already our version of toews and we've landed a top pairing defenseman for not much like the avs did. we still need to turn a tyson barrie (tyler myers) into a kadri-level top-6 staple, have a prospect on the verge of playing in europe (one of hoglander, kravtsov or podkolzin) breakout into a possession monster like nichushkin did, add a couple more top-6 wingers using just draft picks... or in other words, have a lot of things go very right, and a lot of other things continue to hold.

it's possible, but it's a very tall order.

 

[Diogenes92]

If they piss the bed this year Peter will want out and there will be some substantial moves. The rage crew will get their wish and can high five each other and say they knew it all along.. I’m still not sure if it would get burned to the ground like the bitters want but change would happen. Big change.

I just want to see some playoffs for the Canucks this season. There’s lots of ways to build and rebuild on the fly. It doesn’t always have to be a tear down.

Odds are that the plan wouldn't change at all. I could easily see a Calagry/Tkachuk trade scenario where they want to continue to compete in the present. Big mistake, but more than likely.

Believe or not, so do I. The only caveat is that I don't believe in this core or team to do much damage. As I stated before, I'd be happy to eat crow.

 

[arttk]

Odds are that the plan wouldn't change at all. I could easily see a Calagry/Tkachuk trade scenario where they want to continue to compete in the present. Big mistake, but more than likely.

Believe or not, so do I. The only caveat is that I don't believe in this core or team to do much damage. As I stated before, I'd be happy to eat crow.

If the core does its job and the team crashes out, it’s fine. That means we just need to add more depth. The thing we don’t want to see if TML type of core performance where they just disappear.

 

[CpatainCanuck]

2021/2022: 6 wins in the first 22 games
2022/2023: 6 wins in first 19 games

Canucks are trending in the right direction...I just hope they trend harder this year.

 

[Lindgren]

I don't remember there ever being an off-season in which so much of the optimism heading into the year was based on expectations for the coaching. It's going to be fascinating.

 

[RandV]

agreed with this completely - and where one might define it as "possible" - i think it perfectly illustrates just how hard the challenge of putting together a contender right now is.

like i said, let's even pretend that hronek is already our version of toews and we've landed a top pairing defenseman for not much like the avs did. we still need to turn a tyson barrie (tyler myers) into a kadri-level top-6 staple, have a prospect on the verge of playing in europe (one of hoglander, kravtsov or podkolzin) breakout into a possession monster like nichushkin did, add a couple more top-6 wingers using just draft picks... or in other words, have a lot of things go very right, and a lot of other things continue to hold.

it's possible, but it's a very tall order.

Yeah I was looking at doing some replies to my posting there but it gets kind of circular. What I try to get across is that there isn't really a proven 'model' to win the Stanley Cup, otherwise why wouldn't anyone everyone else be doing it? Rather to actually win the Cup you have to pull off some manner of what Colorado accomplished there, and it can take a few years to get it right.

 

[Grub]

Finally back after a long hiatus. I'm quite optimistic about this season, I think the off season moves were great after fixing the entire D-core. Of course I was quite optimistic about last season too, but I think last season's collapse had to do with our D-core, we scored goals but gave up too many.

The forward group right now is one of the deepest I can remember since the Sedin's peak season. If we can get a good start to the season, I think we can reach the playoffs as a wild card team.

2021/2022: 6 wins in the first 22 games
2022/2023: 6 wins in first 19 games

Canucks are trending in the right direction...I just hope they trend harder this year.

This.

Our slow start has always been a problem. Not only that, we start winning games near the END of the season to deny us any chance of having a top 5 pick.

 

[vancityluongo]

Yeah I was looking at doing some replies to my posting there but it gets kind of circular. What I try to get across is that there isn't really a proven 'model' to win the Stanley Cup, otherwise why wouldn't anyone everyone else be doing it? Rather to actually win the Cup you have to pull off some manner of what Colorado accomplished there, and it can take a few years to get it right.

oh, this discussion absolutely is circular. and agreed completely that there's no one way to do it - even moreso in that if everyone followed a "model", there would be massive arbitrage opportunities doing the opposite. no one in any position, let alone us on this board, can with any confidence predict how to really succeed in the nhl - like, maybe it has nothing to do with winning or losing and for all we know, pettersson might be lukewarm on vancouver because he went through a hard break-up and at age 24/25 wouldn't mind a change of scenery from that. how would anyone model for that?

in any case, i think we're getting to the punch line here - the canucks need to improve somehow, and whether that's through drafting moonshot prospects who hit and become stars, or banking on internal improvement or strategic deadline deals - it's not going to be some methodical script that we can predict, and that likely means that it will involve some form of luck or "magic beans"

and i'm taking an issue with dismissing one option as unrealistic and the proclaiming the other as the only possible viable path that anyone with a brain would pursue.

 

[credulous]

the bottom line is the team needs to add talent. not teddy blueger and carson soucy talent either. real talent. that's how they'll make lasting improvement. it's correct that there's a lot of potential ways to add talent (and a lot of potential ways to subtract it too) but there's definitely ways that are more plausible than others. i can't think of any teams that paved their path to contention with ufa signings and i don't think there are any that did it with swapping out the bottom of the roster every 12 months

if posters here are frustrated by the pace or timing of the moves management have made it's only because they still seem like the same old conservative "day by day"/"brick by brick" moves that this market has been sold for ten years now. it's time to commit one way or another

 

[arttk]

if posters here are frustrated by the pace or timing of the moves management have made it's only because they still seem like the same old conservative "day by day"/"brick by brick" moves that this market has been sold for ten years now. it's time to commit one way or another

If you think this management is making the same moves as Benning then that’s your problem.

 

[I Hart Conor Garland]

Doesn't it feel like every year is THE year where we will get all the questions answered and arguments settled? It felt that way last year and again this year. I'm getting strong gambling compulsion PTSD but I'm really hoping there's a clearer answer this year for better or worse instead of another late rally, injury excuses, 1-2 player scape goat etc.

But Covid. But Gillis.