Management Threads | Structure. Standards. Habits.

[credulous]

We have a 100pt center, PPG center, 70ish point winger, 3x50pt winger, 1 PPG 1D and 40-50ish pt 2D and a top5 goalie *if healthy*. We are only really like 1 top 4D and 1 3C away like 5-6 place in the conference standings. I honestly don't know why you guys think we are THAT far away. Like yes, we probably can't get that this year but I think we should be able to cobble together the assets by getting rid of Garland, Myers, Beau and hopefully Pearson if he is healthy enough to fill that 3C hole. Just continue add 2 more pieces every single year and balance that out with cheap players coming in to fill the 4th line and 3rd paring.

this is the problem though. going "all in" for 5th or 6th place in the conference just means a playoff round or two. kuzmenko was a once in a decade euro free agent. hronek cost a first and a second. how are you gonna add 2 pieces every year? how are you going to pay for it? this plan just isn't good

 

[Diogenes92]

You are catastrophizing the situation and when posters are calling you out on it you have no evidence (as you admit) to suggest its as bad as you think it is. Just wind down about it.

Its going both ways to be fair.

But thanks for admitting your bias.

 

[Diogenes92]

What other ones were last year?

Boeser's hand. He was brought back too soon after surgery and reaggravated it.

Demko's offseason injury that they allowed him to play through well into the season until he eventually blew it out.

I vaguely remember Pettersson (season before?) Being listed as day to day and then suddenly being out for over 6 weeks after coming back too soon.

If you want a huge list of Canucks medical staff failures it shouldn't be hard to find more within the last 5 years.

this is the problem though. going "all in" for 5th or 6th place in the conference just means a playoff round or two. kuzmenko was a once in a decade euro free agent. hronek cost a first and a second. how are you gonna add 2 pieces every year? how are you going to pay for it? this plan just isn't good

We still need a legit top 3 D, top 6 forward forward, and middle 6 forward to even have a hope at competing in the playoffs. And thats if they mesh well right away.

 

[arttk]

this is the problem though. going "all in" for 5th or 6th place in the conference just means a playoff round or two. kuzmenko was a once in a decade euro free agent. hronek cost a first and a second. how are you gonna add 2 pieces every year? how are you going to pay for it? this plan just isn't good

i mean i didn't say lets stop once we get to 5-6 place.. Once you get a good base then it's "just" about adding 1 or 2 quality pieces every offseason. Also why i advocate not trading away the 1st and see if we can get to 5-6 place without using our 1st.

23/24 - wildcard
24/25 - add 1-2 pieces and get into 5-6
25/26 - hope Willander and Lekkerimaki and Raty will come in and give a nice boost, swap players who they replaced out and use asset to add another piece to get into 3-4
27/28 - start trading away 1st rounder and whatever to get pieces to get into real contender status

 

[credulous]

i mean i didn't say lets stop once we get to 5-6 place.. Once you get a good base then it's "just" about adding 1 or 2 quality pieces every offseason. Also why i advocate not trading away the 1st and see if we can get to 5-6 place without using our 1st.

23/24 - wildcard
24/25 - add 1-2 pieces and get into 5-6
25/26 - hope Willander and Lekkerimaki and Raty will come in and give a nice boost, swap players who they replaced out and use asset to add another piece to get into 3-4
27/28 - start trading away 1st rounder and whatever to get pieces to get into real contender status

maybe you need to qualify what a "piece" is

the canucks added hronek but it basically cost them horvat so that's neutral. is it kuzmenko and mikheyev? are you suggesting spending ~10 mil in free agency each year? how are you gonna keep this up for 2-3 years? is it cole and soucy? cole needs to be replaced next season. soucy is a luxury depth player. i don't really consider that a "piece"

to add good players you either need to spend assets, you need cap space or you need to get lucky. are you just hoping the canucks get lucky a couple offseasons in a row? it's okay to hope for that but you recognize that's not a plan right?

 

[RandV]

this is the problem though. going "all in" for 5th or 6th place in the conference just means a playoff round or two. kuzmenko was a once in a decade euro free agent. hronek cost a first and a second. how are you gonna add 2 pieces every year? how are you going to pay for it? this plan just isn't good

Let me pull my Colorado list from the other thread. Emerging from the tank as a playoff team, the Avs put up 95 and 90 points seasons and a 1st & 2nd round appearance. This was with the core of MacKinnon/Rantonen/Landeskog, and Makar joining them at the end for the playoffs.

Then over the next 3 seasons following that en-route a Cup win their pro-roster additions were:

2019 - 20
Nazem Kadri - Barrie, Kerfoot, 6th
Andre Burakovsky - 2020 2nd and 3rd round picks
Valeri Nichuskin - UFA signing
2020-21
Devon Toews - 2021 2nd, 2022 2nd
2021-22 (trade deadline deals)
Artturi Lehkonen - Avs 2020 1st and 2024 2nd
Josh Manson - Avs 2019 2nd and 2023 2nd

That's a ton of supporting depth added, basically coming from the draft picks the NHL gives each team every year. What I always take from this is if you want to actually win the Cup it's not so much about a specific 'plan' as it is being very lucky and very good.

And of course now Vegas is the new champs, and you can look at what a great job they did spending assets and $$$ to add Eichel, Stone, and Pietrangelo to put them over the top. It's easy to forget that they also traded Nick Suzuki+ for Max Pacioretty. If one of those other 3 big wins swings the way Pacioretty did they probably don't win the Cup.

 

[arttk]

maybe you need to qualify what a "piece" is

the canucks added hronek but it basically cost them horvat so that's neutral. is it kuzmenko and mikheyev? are you suggesting spending ~10 mil in free agency each year? how are you gonna keep this up for 2-3 years? is it cole and soucy? cole needs to be replaced next season. soucy is a luxury depth player. i don't really consider that a "piece"

to add good players you either need to spend assets, you need cap space or you need to get lucky. are you just hoping the canucks get lucky a couple offseasons in a row? it's okay to hope for that but you recognize that's not a plan right?

a good player that actually fills the hole that we have.

23/24 - cap@88M - cap commmitted 63M - Free 24.8M

5.5M Kuz - 7.35M Petey - 4.75M Miki
HOLE - 8M Miller - 6.5M Boeser
2M? POD/Hog - HOLE - HOLE
780K - 780K - 780K

7.8M Hughes - HOLE
3.25M Soucy - 6.75M Hronek
787K Hirose/Wolanin - 883K Johansen

5M Demko
1M Silovs

2.3M OEL

trade chips from TDL - Myers, Pearson, Garland, Beau.
Holes that needs to be addressed - 3C , Hughes Partner
additional holes that would be nie to be addressed - another top4D, 1/2W
stretch goal - future 2C

I am not even being overly optimstic when i mock this out. I think it's fair to assume 1 of Pod/Hog will be around and 2M might already be generous. Hirose/Wolanin/Johansen/Woo/whatever manning the 3rd paring is not unrealistic as they should get a bunch of NHL time this season.

If you want to be safe and reserve money for Kuz and Petey's new contract, we can earmark like 5M and also additional 2M for OEL's recapture and we still have 17M in cap to really just fill 2 holes and we should have 4 picks from the TDL liquidation sale to do it. Let's you spend all of that on one guy, you have a ton of cap to spend in FA to get the other guy. I am not even worried about the 2W and 3W, they are cheap in FA every off season.

I feel like you guys never actually ever bothered to map shit out and see what our cap situation actually is.

 

[andora]

Boeser's hand. He was brought back too soon after surgery and reaggravated it.

Demko's offseason injury that they allowed him to play through well into the season until he eventually blew it out.

I vaguely remember Pettersson (season before?) Being listed as day to day and then suddenly being out for over 6 weeks after coming back too soon.

If you want a huge list of Canucks medical staff failures it shouldn't be hard to find more within the last 5 years.


We still need a legit top 3 D, top 6 forward forward, and middle 6 forward to even have a hope at competing in the playoffs. And thats if they mesh well right away.

Look at all the teams f***ing up then with aggravations and setbacks. Were these mis diagnosed injuries you are referencing or other things happening

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://dobberhockey.com/2023/03/08/injury-ward-hall-raanta-forsberg-hedman-hronek-more/&ved=2ahUKEwinidKQ8Pj_AhWvHDQIHV_MDX8QFnoECEIQAQ&usg=AOvVaw3t3ep3oCjDjOUNtHhhc2ez

Flyers' Ellis out 4-6 weeks after aggravating lower-body injury

Ryan Ellis' first season with his new team hasn't gone according to plan thus far.The Philadelphia Flyers defenseman will miss an additional four-to-six weeks after aggravating a lower-body injury, head coach Alain Vigneault said Thursday, according to NHL.com's Adam Kimelman.Ellis has suited up...

www.thescore.com

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.nhl.com/oilers/news/blog-smith-suffers-setback/c-329743932&ved=2ahUKEwjKvaLR8fj_AhXjIn0KHbKeC_4QFnoECAwQAQ&usg=AOvVaw2Xoxwz284elK3ZMCASxjJj

Habs D Edmundson suffers injury setback - TSN.ca

Montreal Canadiens defenceman Joel Edmundson has suffered a setback and will be out for another 10 to 14 days.

www.tsn.ca

Etc etc...

 

[pitseleh]

a good player that actually fills the hole that we have.

23/24 - cap@88M - cap commmitted 63M - Free 24.8M

5.5M Kuz - 7.35M Petey - 4.75M Miki
HOLE - 8M Miller - 6.5M Boeser
2M? POD/Hog - HOLE - HOLE
780K - 780K - 780K

7.8M Hughes - HOLE
3.25M Soucy - 6.75M Hronek
787K Hirose/Wolanin - 883K Johansen

5M Demko
1M Silovs

2.3M OEL

trade chips from TDL - Myers, Pearson, Garland, Beau.
Holes that needs to be addressed - 3C , Hughes Partner
additional holes that would be nie to be addressed - another top4D, 1/2W
stretch goal - future 2C

I am not even being overly optimstic when i mock this out. I think it's fair to assume 1 of Pod/Hog will be around and 2M might already be generous. Hirose/Wolanin/Johansen/Woo/whatever manning the 3rd paring is not unrealistic as they should get a bunch of NHL time this season.

If you want to be safe and reserve money for Kuz and Petey's new contract, we can earmark like 5M and also additional 2M for OEL's recapture and we still have 17M in cap to really just fill 2 holes and we should have 4 picks from the TDL liquidation sale to do it. Let's you spend all of that on one guy, you have a ton of cap to spend in FA to get the other guy. I am not even worried about the 2W and 3W, they are cheap in FA every off season.

I feel like you guys never actually ever bothered to map shit out and see what our cap situation actually is.

Who are the 3x minimum wage players on the fourth line? When have the Canucks ever gone that cheap before and who is in the system that would let you project that? Realistically you’re looking at another $1-2 million there.

Where are your extras? The team needs 23 players. That’s another $3 million gone.

Pettersson raise kicks in next year, so that’s another $3-4 million gone.

So your $25 million in space is actually closer to $18 million for a top pairing defender and three top nine forwards. You need to fill those spots in what is going to be an inflationary environment because the flat cap is over. Plus you might still have the worst fourth line and third pairing in the league.

 

[DonnyNucker]

Look at all the teams f***ing up then with aggravations and setbacks. Were these mis diagnosed injuries you are referencing or other things happening

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://dobberhockey.com/2023/03/08/injury-ward-hall-raanta-forsberg-hedman-hronek-more/&ved=2ahUKEwinidKQ8Pj_AhWvHDQIHV_MDX8QFnoECEIQAQ&usg=AOvVaw3t3ep3oCjDjOUNtHhhc2ez

Flyers' Ellis out 4-6 weeks after aggravating lower-body injury

Ryan Ellis' first season with his new team hasn't gone according to plan thus far.The Philadelphia Flyers defenseman will miss an additional four-to-six weeks after aggravating a lower-body injury, head coach Alain Vigneault said Thursday, according to NHL.com's Adam Kimelman.Ellis has suited up...

www.thescore.com

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.nhl.com/oilers/news/blog-smith-suffers-setback/c-329743932&ved=2ahUKEwjKvaLR8fj_AhXjIn0KHbKeC_4QFnoECAwQAQ&usg=AOvVaw2Xoxwz284elK3ZMCASxjJj

Habs D Edmundson suffers injury setback - TSN.ca

Montreal Canadiens defenceman Joel Edmundson has suffered a setback and will be out for another 10 to 14 days.

www.tsn.ca

Etc etc...

He has clearly never played competitive sports and has likely lived a very stationary lifestyle. Broken bones generally heal along a certain timeline. Other injuries do not

 

[Coffee]

Also, the same people pissed off the team isn't doing a tear down rebuild are the same people exaggerating the injury and hoping the trade fails so they can point at it and say "I was right!"

That’s just sad and I don’t think/hope that’s true

 

[arttk]

Who are the 3x minimum wage players on the fourth line? When have the Canucks ever gone that cheap before and who is in the system that would let you project that? Realistically you’re looking at another $1-2 million there.

Where are your extras? The team needs 23 players. That’s another $3 million gone.

Pettersson raise kicks in next year, so that’s another $3-4 million gone.

So your $25 million in space is actually closer to $18 million for a top pairing defender and three top nine forwards. You need to fill those spots in what is going to be an inflationary environment because the flat cap is over. Plus you might still have the worst fourth line and third pairing in the league.

Oh you got me, we paid 880K for Aman, go ahead and minus .1M from the budget. Shit we brokeass now.

If you read what I wrote I already mentioned that accounting for Petey and Kuz and OEL’s cap we will have around 18M to spend.

You fix your top9 and top4 then you start to allocate budget to your 3rd paring and then your 4th line.

The whole point of having extras is that they should be cheap, why the hell would you allocate 3M for like guys who are sitting, there is a reason why we are recruiting cheap vets like Irwin and FA guys so they can get a chance while they are paid like 780-880K.

This is all done without account for any kind of improvements from Pod/Hog and also any surprise rookie coming in.

Even then, you still have around 18M to spend and you can focus most of the money on C and D and and cheap out on the wings.

 

[AwesomeInTheory]

Do you remember what happened just last season surrounding misdiagnosed injuries?

It wasn't just Pearson. And it wasn't just last season.

This team has an abysmal track record when it comes to evaluating injuries. There are cold hard facts to look at if you are willing.

I mean, Takahashi was dumped like a year ago and new personnel were brought in.

Canucks announce new human performance staff hires with various pro sports backgrounds

Today, Vancouver Canucks general manager Patrik Allvin announced the c...

canucksarmy.com

I know folks have been bitching about Roger Takahashi since Jovanovski was on the team, but him being dumped and this crap with Pearson might have some fire with the smoke you're blowing.

But I am super skeptical that Hronek's shoulder issues are chronic or longterm and it's up to you to, uh, sorta provide proof of that.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

Look at all the teams f***ing up then with aggravations and setbacks. Were these mis diagnosed injuries you are referencing or other things happening

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://dobberhockey.com/2023/03/08/injury-ward-hall-raanta-forsberg-hedman-hronek-more/&ved=2ahUKEwinidKQ8Pj_AhWvHDQIHV_MDX8QFnoECEIQAQ&usg=AOvVaw3t3ep3oCjDjOUNtHhhc2ez

Flyers' Ellis out 4-6 weeks after aggravating lower-body injury

Ryan Ellis' first season with his new team hasn't gone according to plan thus far.The Philadelphia Flyers defenseman will miss an additional four-to-six weeks after aggravating a lower-body injury, head coach Alain Vigneault said Thursday, according to NHL.com's Adam Kimelman.Ellis has suited up...

www.thescore.com

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.nhl.com/oilers/news/blog-smith-suffers-setback/c-329743932&ved=2ahUKEwjKvaLR8fj_AhXjIn0KHbKeC_4QFnoECAwQAQ&usg=AOvVaw2Xoxwz284elK3ZMCASxjJj

Habs D Edmundson suffers injury setback - TSN.ca

Montreal Canadiens defenceman Joel Edmundson has suffered a setback and will be out for another 10 to 14 days.

www.tsn.ca

Etc etc...

Dickinson finding out he has a broken hand only after being traded to the Blackhawks.

Letting Mikheyev play through a torn ACL.

These two are the ones that have me really worried about the medical staff. I work in this field and neither of these are normal.

The way I see it. Pearson's is not a Canucks medical staff failure. Only way I can think of laying ANY blame at them is if they recommended unnecessary surgery or had him do something incredibly stupid as rehab that got his hand infected.

 

[arttk]

Dickinson finding out he has a broken hand only after being traded to the Blackhawks.

You honestly believe that anyone with a broken hand don’t m know they have a broken hand?

Oh jeez my hand feels really f***ed up and it’s swelling like crazy, must be fine.

So if none of that happened that means it didn’t even cause any pain. Nobody is going to x-ray your body for funsies if there are no symptoms.

The Miki thing is also overblown mostly by you as well. The agent and the player came out and said Miki wanted to continue to play on despite having the injury and they had multiple doctors, ones not employed by the Canucks to provide 2nd opinions about the condition. And they played while having a doctor monitor his knee weekly or something like that. But yeah, Canucks doctor bad because it fits narrative.

 

[Diogenes92]

Look at all the teams f***ing up then with aggravations and setbacks. Were these mis diagnosed injuries you are referencing or other things happening

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://dobberhockey.com/2023/03/08/injury-ward-hall-raanta-forsberg-hedman-hronek-more/&ved=2ahUKEwinidKQ8Pj_AhWvHDQIHV_MDX8QFnoECEIQAQ&usg=AOvVaw3t3ep3oCjDjOUNtHhhc2ez

Flyers' Ellis out 4-6 weeks after aggravating lower-body injury

Ryan Ellis' first season with his new team hasn't gone according to plan thus far.The Philadelphia Flyers defenseman will miss an additional four-to-six weeks after aggravating a lower-body injury, head coach Alain Vigneault said Thursday, according to NHL.com's Adam Kimelman.Ellis has suited up...

www.thescore.com

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.nhl.com/oilers/news/blog-smith-suffers-setback/c-329743932&ved=2ahUKEwjKvaLR8fj_AhXjIn0KHbKeC_4QFnoECAwQAQ&usg=AOvVaw2Xoxwz284elK3ZMCASxjJj

Habs D Edmundson suffers injury setback - TSN.ca

Montreal Canadiens defenceman Joel Edmundson has suffered a setback and will be out for another 10 to 14 days.

www.tsn.ca

Etc etc...

So, in other words, a bunch of mistakes by team medical staffs?

 

[Diogenes92]

I mean, Takahashi was dumped like a year ago and new personnel were brought in.

Canucks announce new human performance staff hires with various pro sports backgrounds

Today, Vancouver Canucks general manager Patrik Allvin announced the c...

canucksarmy.com

I know folks have been bitching about Roger Takahashi since Jovanovski was on the team, but him being dumped and this crap with Pearson might have some fire with the smoke you're blowing.

But I am super skeptical that Hronek's shoulder issues are chronic or longterm and it's up to you to, uh, sorta provide proof of that.

I'm more or less just trying to say that Hronek hasn't been proven 100% healthy yet and there is no proof to say otherwise...

He may be 98%. He may be 85%. We don't know and may never know.

But it is annoying when certain posters automatically assume that Hronek is fully healed and ready to go for training camp with, wait for it, zero actual evidence.

Almost as a way of defending the overpayment and imo rush job type trade that the Canucks made.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

I'm more or less just trying to say that Hronek hasn't been proven 100% healthy yet and there is no proof to say otherwise...

He may be 98%. He may be 85%. We don't know and may never know.

But it is annoying when certain posters automatically assume that Hronek is fully healed and ready to go for training camp with, wait for it, zero actual evidence.

Almost as a way of defending the overpayment and imo rush job type trade that the Canucks made.

Aren't you assuming that he's chronically injured with zero evidence..?

 

[Diogenes92]

Aren't you assuming that he's chronically injured with zero evidence..?

Jeez. You, too?

Recently he's had concussions in 2022 and two shoulder injuries starting in January 2023 and a reaggravation in February.

I'm going off his recent injury history.

Shoulder problems and concussion problems are some of the worst things to have and they usually don't magically go away (speaking from experience).

 

[Diogenes92]

He has clearly never played competitive sports and has likely lived a very stationary lifestyle. Broken bones generally heal along a certain timeline. Other injuries do not

Ignorant statement of the off-season so far.

 

[racerjoe]

Jeez. You, too?

Recently he's had concussions in 2022 and two shoulder injuries starting in January 2023 and a reaggravation in February.

I'm going off his recent injury history.

Shoulder problems and concussion problems are some of the worst things to have and they usually don't magically go away (speaking from experience).

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Sorry this is must be a joke.

I have read how many pages now of people telling you what has happened and you exaggerating it.

Even a few posters pointing out we should be more concerned about his concussions, but you continued to hammer the shoulder POV. Now you try to make it two separate shoulder injuries... it's just laughable.

And finally you decide to add in the concussions. This has just been comic gold.

 

[drax0s]

I feel like much of the desire for a rebuild from some people is just wanting to feel excitement again after so much failure - some mystery box prospects we can imagine being the light at the end of the tunnel and becoming the next McDavid.

The goal of a teardown rebuild be to come out of the other end with young, top flight 1C, 1D and 1G we can build around right? I mean - don't we already have those pieces? The big issue is money spent on defense that couldn't defend and a lack of cap room to even attempt to augment the quality players we do have. We also have a slight overspend on wing too.

 

[God]

this injury stuff is such a dumb topic so i'm going to change it




i'm not loving the pettersson/miller/blueger/aman centre depth but i can't see anything happening prior to training camp. they might be able to pick up pius suter if they can trade myers, but if that's not possible, maybe someone on a deep team slips through the tracks and we can get them on waivers.

while i like what they've done with the OEL buyout space as temporary stopgaps, it's pretty clear the boeser/garland contracts are still the biggest hindrances to future pickups. looking forward to next year's UFA class, nylander/lindholm/pesce/skjei/forsling would fit our needs pretty well, and the year after bennett/theodore/gavrikov are possible targets (i omitted guys who are prob not gonna be UFA like matthews). it's fine to just have the playoffs as the goal this year, but next offseason needs to have at least 1 big roster acquisition with the deadline of the following offseason for those UFA targets.

frankly, if they're in a playoff position, i would be ok with sending off a 1st rounder to free us of the garland contract if he doesn't have a standout season.

 

[Bleach Clean]

Petey is 24, Hughes 23. They have spent the last 4-5 years on a losing team. I assume the right analogy is when you are in a losing environment and everything as negative as it is. it's a really bad working environment. If we do a rebuild, it will take another 4-5 years. Petey will be 28/29, Hughes will be 27/28.

Can you imagine if you are miserable at work for the past 4 years and then your boss tells you, don't worry, you just need to grind it out for 4-5 more years and the company, not you, the company MIGHT be better but you will be paid regardless of whether or not you leave. there is really no incentive at all for you for staying and you are going to want to leave. It's not that hard to understand.

like what is the incentive for them to want to waste another 4 more years and basically their prime losing other than blind loyalty which nobody should expect these days.

It's amazing that people still think an attempt to re-tool means the team will not take another 4-5 years to win... How are you coming to this conclusion?

A re-tool that prioritizes futures, but is still built around Pettersson-Hughes, has every chance to succeed as the one that burns futures to re-tool around Pettersson-Hughes. There's no difference because the mode itself doesn't equate to success or failure, it's the execution of said mode that does.

When Petterson re-signs, this fearmongering over him leaving will be revisited. I've always felt that it is alarmist and doesn't have any place in a rational discussion about this player, but let's see. It's going to be a long summer.

 

[Reverend Mayhem]

I wrote a long ass post and got deleted. I hate using mobile.

Basically the way I see it, if you are going for it and your goal is the Cup…the way to it is thru a desert with a boat. No one’s fault but previous management. We are at a competitive disadvantage with the OEL buyout but I think it was the correct move. Most of what I see people projecting involve a cap increase which other teams get to use too. This management is fine, but I don’t see them as the miracle men we need.

Go for it now or not I still think we are a rebuild away at any shot for the Cup.