Management Threads | Structure. Standards. Habits.

[DS7]

well there were a bunch of people advocating for trading away Miller, Horvat, Kuzmenko, Garland, Boeser and any other players not name Petey, Hughes and Demko.
That’s pretty much a tear down rebuild considering it’s super likely Petey, Hughes and Demko will request a trade out of here.

A tear down rebuild starts with Petey and Hughes

 

[DonnyNucker]

I think Eichel was a very special exception since he truly had superstar potential if the surgery he wanted to get was a success. The payoff was huge and worth the gamble.

As I said before, I think that using the worry of injuries card against Detroit would've been a legitimate bargaining chip to use.

If the Canucks had offered the 17th pick for Hronek at the draft, I think Detroit likely bites. They were clearly looking to move on from him as they shopped him at the TDL. Canucks were willing to pay the most.

Well yes, that’s how trades work. If you offer the most you get the player. Management wouldn’t get a whole lot done if they always offered the 2nd best package. Also, you have no idea if DET would take less and you also have no idea if another team wouldn’t scoop in and take him.

 

[Diogenes92]

Well yes, that’s how trades work. If you offer the most you get the player. Management wouldn’t get a whole lot done if they always offered the 2nd best package. Also, you have no idea if DET would take less and you also have no idea if another team wouldn’t scoop in and take him.

And we have no idea of he will actually make a meaningful difference on this team next season.

All hypotheticals.

 

[arttk]

A tear down rebuild starts with Petey and Hughes

If you trade all of the other folks then Petey and Hughes will request a trade and tada, u you get a tear down rebuild.

 

[MarkusNaslund19]

This is all according to management and a coach that just aquired the player. No bias there?

And are you really going to defend the Canucks medical staff opinions on players after their track record?

Oh noooooo...

Your conspiracy theories are shot down and you move to, "what are we just going to trust immunologists on Covid? My uncle Steve posted a meme on facebook that said...".

You're literally discrediting medical personnel, the GM, the team president, and the coach and discarding their opinions as biased to continue holding an opinion that is Literally. Supported. By. Nothing.

 

[Diogenes92]

Oh noooooo...

Your conspiracy theories are shot down and you move to, "what are we just going to trust immunologists on Covid? My uncle Steve posted a meme on facebook that said...".

You're literally discrediting medical personnel, the GM, the team president, and the coach and discarding their opinions as biased to continue holding an opinion that is Literally. Supported. By. Nothing.

The Canucks org has a proven track record of poor medical treatment and diagnosis.

They literally had to hold a midseason press conference to answer for their incompetence last season.

There is precedent for me to draw upon, so why don't you try and relax just a bit?

Its comical how offended people in here get over things such as Hronek's concerning injury history.

 

[F A N]

The fact that he could have kept playing if the season meant anything, that he came back mid injury to show what he was to a new team and coach etc.

He came in and played 4 games and didn't look out of place. If it was a serious injury he wouldn't have done that.

It really doesn't mean much in this sport where players are known to play through injuries including injuries that require surgery. Heck, Shea Weber average over 25 minutes a game in the Stanley Cup players and played for what were career-ending injuries. The criteria for clearing players is basically will it risk further damage. Generally the answer is no.

We disagree on his injury history. I think this shoulder injury is no different from the regular bumps and bruises every player goes through.

I'm guessing you have never suffered a shoulder injury? Basically, aside from suffering soft tissue injuries, it is difficult to rehab the shoulder back to no pain, full strength, 100% stability status. Anybody who has dislocated or separated their shoulder, suffer from shoulder impingement etc. and who hasn't gone through surgery will tell you it isn't 100%. It is rarely similar to a regular bump and bruise where once it's gone you are 100% fine.

But I hope you are right. I've just seen too many instances where a player doesn't require surgery but really they do and they just wanted to see if they can get away with conservative management first.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

But we're in "win-now" mode!

Having Petey, Hughes, Demko forces us to try as hard as we can to make the playoffs and "see what happens".

Little do the retoolies know, but this team is nowhere near a lock for the playoffs with the Hronek, Cole, Soucy additions.

We'll see what excuses the retoolies come up with if the Canucks once again crap the bed at the start of the season.

One of our key players will miss some time with an injury and that will do us in.

I do think, with the Flames imploding, we have a decent chance at the last wild card spot.

But that will be derailed easily if any of Demko / EP40 or Huges miss ~25 games.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

A tear down rebuild starts with Petey and Hughes

This entire debate over retool rebuild and how insane the other is seems to come down to how people define the terms...

Imho they should have tried to cumulate assets and move aging players and tried to clear cap space. Theyve done none of that.

The insistency to push forward and refuse a step back, even when Demkos injury gave them the perfect chance to do so, they just refuse at every turn. We are locked in to mediocrity for the forseeable future with no meaningful advantage on any team. No draft picks no prospects no cap space.

The point is some people here call this insane and others think it is too conservative. Some would call it a retool some a rebuild. Some insist that doing this 100%, no debate, means EP40 bolts others think the current path is leading towards that.

Its a pretty tiresome debate. Ive grown apathic and accepted that no meaningful cup window will be achieved with this current core of players.

 

[DS7]

If you trade all of the other folks then Petey and Hughes will request a trade and tada, u you get a tear down rebuild.

The funny thing is that in the last five years you would have been wrong, considering Petey and Quinn signed an extension despite the team being bottom ten in wins since they started.

Say it long enough and perhaps it is correct, but I give Petey and Hughes more credit in the ability to see the longer picture if they take a step back to reload. Then again in this hypothetical it is the GMs job to convince the players of their vision, similar to how Gillis convinced the twins to sign at below market as UFAs despite missing playoffs two of the last three seasons.

What a lost opportunity the last few years was. Even last year.

The irony is, the refusal to take even one step back for half a season to build more for the future and "compete now" is still likely going to result in them asking for trades anyway. Because we're gunning for it with insufficient assets, a capped ceiling and a below average prospect pipeline still.

 

[valkynax]

The funny thing is that in the last five years you would have been wrong, considering Petey and Quinn signed an extension despite the team being bottom ten in wins since they started.

Say it long enough and perhaps it is correct, but I give Petey and Hughes more credit in the ability to see the longer picture if they take a step back to reload. Then again in this hypothetical it is the GMs job to convince the players of their vision, similar to how Gillis convinced the twins to sign at below market as UFAs despite missing playoffs two of the last three seasons.

What a lost opportunity the last few years was. Even last year.

The irony is, the refusal to take even one step back for half a season to build more for the future and "compete now" is still likely going to result in them asking for trades anyway. Because we're gunning for it with insufficient assets, a capped ceiling and a below average prospect pipeline still.

I think this is the key - we're committing ourselves to cup rush, while ill-prepared to do so.

7 years of asset mismanagement and just horrible team operation overall led us to this point, thanks to the fat dobber.

But, it is the direction that we're set on, and it's too late to change.

This offseason has been decent with no bloated contracts being signed to undeserving retirees, at least there's that.

If all goes well, Willander and some of our other defense prospects can rise up quickly, while players like Soucy can hold the line in the meantime. And simultaneously we'll have to pitch our vision to Pete and Hughes, hoping to extend both with reasonable deals.

 

[arttk]

The funny thing is that in the last five years you would have been wrong, considering Petey and Quinn signed an extension despite the team being bottom ten in wins since they started.

Say it long enough and perhaps it is correct, but I give Petey and Hughes more credit in the ability to see the longer picture if they take a step back to reload. Then again in this hypothetical it is the GMs job to convince the players of their vision, similar to how Gillis convinced the twins to sign at below market as UFAs despite missing playoffs two of the last three seasons.

What a lost opportunity the last few years was. Even last year.

The irony is, the refusal to take even one step back for half a season to build more for the future and "compete now" is still likely going to result in them asking for trades anyway. Because we're gunning for it with insufficient assets, a capped ceiling and a below average prospect pipeline still.

I love how you guys call this a one step back because you know, trading away your whole top6 and almost all your centers away is just a casual step back. It’s only like 300ish points worth, no biggie. Top line forwards, ppg center, all of that are easily replaceable.

Just be f***ing honest about it. You guys don’t want a “step back” and you know what you are suggesting is not simply a step back. you guys want a rebuild and you all know that is no longer palatable so you are now calling it a step back. You know what is actually a step back? Last f***ing season was the definition of a step back, the only problem was that it wasn’t back enough for you guys.

 

[Canucker]

I love how you guys call this a one step back because you know, trading away your whole top6 and almost all your centers away is just a casual step back. It’s only like 300ish points worth, no biggie. Top line forwards, ppg center, all of that are easily replaceable.

Just be f***ing honest about it. You guys don’t want a “step back” and you know what you are suggesting is not simply a step back. you guys want a rebuild and you all know that is no longer palatable so you are now calling it a step back. You know what is actually a step back? Last f***ing season was the definition of a step back, the only problem was that it wasn’t back enough for you guys.

Last season was an unintended "step back"...they were fully primed to try to move forward.

I've been in favor of a rebuild for a long time, and I don't believe for a second that it would have been a foregone conclusion that any rebuild (or step back) scenario will incur a meltdown by Petey and QH and cause them to want out....it might, but I don't think so...and even if it did, so be it. Its a whole lot of pearl clutching over nothing IMO. This is not the path I would have chosen, but so be it, its the path we're on and I'll hope for the best, I'm encouraged by some of the moves and changes, but the bar has been set pretty low. lol

 

[Diogenes92]

Last season was an unintended "step back"...they were fully primed to try to move forward.

That's been the story of this team for basically a decade.

 

[DS7]

I love how you guys call this a one step back because you know, trading away your whole top6 and almost all your centers away is just a casual step back. It’s only like 300ish points worth, no biggie. Top line forwards, ppg center, all of that are easily replaceable.

Just be f***ing honest about it. You guys don’t want a “step back” and you know what you are suggesting is not simply a step back. you guys want a rebuild and you all know that is no longer palatable so you are now calling it a step back. You know what is actually a step back? Last f***ing season was the definition of a step back, the only problem was that it wasn’t back enough for you guys.

Meh, don't try and put words in my mouth. I even said that a rebuild is incompatible now because it is too late, we've wasted our prime window to do so.

Back in 2021, waiting out the Beagle/Roussel/Eriksson contracts and sucking for one year in 2022 is the step back I wanted.

Making the best of a Demko injury, accumulating draft picks in a deep 2023 with players who can make the jump at a cost controlled ELC while Petey and Hughes here is more sustainable is the step back I wanted.

I want a step back because I want Petey and Hughes to win in a sustainable environment rather than a one and done wild card seed.

I think you need to be honest as well, because a wildcard seed and an early exit is really a likely outcome at the end of the day and it means nothing in the grand scale of things. Especially when we have a future dead cap commitment of ~$4 Mil coming in years 2 and 3. This year is really our best shot. And if we can't make it this year you have to seriously evaluate how this team can get to a cup going forward. There HAS to be a season where we suck it up and let the prospect pool accumulate and have contracts ride out. We're simply kicking this can down the road.

 

[arttk]

Last season was an unintended "step back"...they were fully primed to try to move forward.

I've been in favor of a rebuild for a long time, and I don't believe for a second that it would have been a foregone conclusion that any rebuild (or step back) scenario will incur a meltdown by Petey and QH and cause them to want out....it might, but I don't think so...and even if it did, so be it. Its a whole lot of pearl clutching over nothing IMO. This is not the path I would have chosen, but so be it, its the path we're on and I'll hope for the best, I'm encouraged by some of the moves and changes, but the bar has been set pretty low. lol

Petey is 24, Hughes 23. They have spent the last 4-5 years on a losing team. I assume the right analogy is when you are in a losing environment and everything as negative as it is. it's a really bad working environment. If we do a rebuild, it will take another 4-5 years. Petey will be 28/29, Hughes will be 27/28.

Can you imagine if you are miserable at work for the past 4 years and then your boss tells you, don't worry, you just need to grind it out for 4-5 more years and the company, not you, the company MIGHT be better but you will be paid regardless of whether or not you leave. there is really no incentive at all for you for staying and you are going to want to leave. It's not that hard to understand.

like what is the incentive for them to want to waste another 4 more years and basically their prime losing other than blind loyalty which nobody should expect these days.

 

[rypper]

It really doesn't mean much in this sport where players are known to play through injuries including injuries that require surgery. Heck, Shea Weber average over 25 minutes a game in the Stanley Cup players and played for what were career-ending injuries. The criteria for clearing players is basically will it risk further damage. Generally the answer is no.

Playing 4 essentially meaningless games at the end of a blown season are not the same as cobbling your body together for the stanley cup playoffs.

No player would risk further injury over the former but everyone would for the latter.

The debate isn't is he injured, clearly he was. Other posters are claiming it's a "nagging" continuous injury. I'm saying if it was, he wouldn't have come in for 4 essentially nothing games.

 

[MS]

Petey is 24, Hughes 23. They have spent the last 4-5 years on a losing team. I assume the right analogy is when you are in a losing environment and everything as negative as it is. it's a really bad working environment. If we do a rebuild, it will take another 4-5 years. Petey will be 28/29, Hughes will be 27/28.

Can you imagine if you are miserable at work for the past 4 years and then your boss tells you, don't worry, you just need to grind it out for 4-5 more years and the company, not you, the company MIGHT be better but you will be paid regardless of whether or not you leave. there is really no incentive at all for you for staying and you are going to want to leave. It's not that hard to understand.

like what is the incentive for them to want to waste another 4 more years and basically their prime losing other than blind loyalty which nobody should expect these days.

It's incredible that people don't understand this. And it isn't like all of Pettersson/Hughes/Demko haven't made this very clear for the last two years, either.

 

[arttk]

Meh, don't try and put words in my mouth. I even said that a rebuild is incompatible now because it is too late, we've wasted our prime window to do so.

Back in 2021, waiting out the Beagle/Roussel/Eriksson contracts and sucking for one year in 2022 is the step back I wanted.

Making the best of a Demko injury, accumulating draft picks in a deep 2023 with players who can make the jump at a cost controlled ELC while Petey and Hughes here is more sustainable is the step back I wanted.

I want a step back because I want Petey and Hughes to win in a sustainable environment rather than a one and done wild card seed.

I think you need to be honest as well, because a wildcard seed and an early exit is really a likely outcome at the end of the day and it means nothing in the grand scale of things. Especially when we have a future dead cap commitment of ~$4 Mil coming in years 2 and 3. This year is really our best shot. And if we can't make it this year you have to seriously evaluate how this team can get to a cup going forward. There HAS to be a season where we suck it up and let the prospect pool accumulate and have contracts ride out. We're simply kicking this can down the road.

I think we all wanted the team to tank back in 2021, hell we've been wanting to tank since like 2015.

I've already listed out our salary commitment in 25/26. Cap is not an issue, we have essentially 18M to spend to improve on like 3-4 spots. Just scroll up and find my post and you can see.

Like last season when things were going south I was one of the biggest cheerleader for losing. We literally shut down a bunch of guys and played like a bunch of AHLers and had like 2 NHL centers on the team and the team was still winning because the tank teams we played was way shittier than we were. Hell what can you do when Silovs and Delia were winning games?

I disagree that grabbing a bunch of picks and hoping they pan out is at all sustainable. You need incredible draft luck for that to be sustainable. I've been on these boards for like 20 years now and after awhile, you just realize, 90%+ of all picks will just bust. There is a reason why rebuilds are often unsuccessful and the ones that are, takes like 7 years to pull off and incredible luck. If you look at even the tank teams, at most you might have like 3/4 guys from a draft hit and if they hit, they won't be here until like 3-4 yeras from now. The only way for it to be sustainable is if you do that over the course of like 4+ years then you will end up having like 3-4 guys on the door step every season.

Sucking for 1 season and then having MAYBE a couple of guys come in 4 years does not contribute to any kind of sustainability. Hell the fact you liquidated your most valuable asset means that you will have to figure out how to fill that hole while you wait and if those picks don't pan out, then it's all for nothing.

Right now, I see them mostly reallocating assets to get to a wildcard spot, which is fine. What I care about is what they do beyond to get the team to be better. Like I said, there is cap and we need to continue to reallocate assets to get better assets. Trade Garland/Myers/Pearson/Boeser for picks and then use those picks for like 1 better player, use the freed up cap on UFA and etc. The core is fine, we just need to add more season over season.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

If you trade all of the other folks then Petey and Hughes will request a trade and tada, u you get a tear down rebuild.

We dont know that.

If its not true then you too believe its the right course of action?

 

[arttk]

We dont know that.

If its not true then you too believe its the right course of action?

Petey and Hughes literally said it in various interviews.

I think we missed the opportunity to tank, which was like 3-4 years ago.

 

[Diogenes92]

The debate isn't is he injured, clearly he was. Other posters are claiming it's a "nagging" continuous injury. I'm saying if it was, he wouldn't have come in for 4 essentially nothing games.

Except throughout the NHL this happens quite regularly.

Players want to tough it out and often play down their injuries because they want to help the boys.

Its sort of a male health issue in general. Putting stuff off until it becomes something much worse.

Remember the last few seasons when the Canucks listed some players as "day-to-day" and then suddenly they're out for 2 months?

Its really not so clear-cut.

 

[Canucker]

Petey is 24, Hughes 23. They have spent the last 4-5 years on a losing team. I assume the right analogy is when you are in a losing environment and everything as negative as it is. it's a really bad working environment. If we do a rebuild, it will take another 4-5 years. Petey will be 28/29, Hughes will be 27/28.

Can you imagine if you are miserable at work for the past 4 years and then your boss tells you, don't worry, you just need to grind it out for 4-5 more years and the company, not you, the company MIGHT be better but you will be paid regardless of whether or not you leave. there is really no incentive at all for you for staying and you are going to want to leave. It's not that hard to understand.

like what is the incentive for them to want to waste another 4 more years and basically their prime losing other than blind loyalty which nobody should expect these days.

Why don't all players just pout their way to winning teams right from the draft on? Why should Connor Bedard waste the next 4-5 years languishing on a shitty rebuilding team? Because these players aren't usually as unhappy with life as you're making them out to be...if you are a GM with any charisma at all, you can sell these players on a vision...if you have a vision that shows QH and Petey as the foundational pillars of the team, and you are willing to pay them and surround them with talent as they are able to, you should be able to convince them to stay for a while...if not, f*** em...trade them for pieces that will stay. These players (and their agents) aren't stupid, they are always calculating money, team environment, tax rates, lifestyles, relationships, capacity for SC contention...and all of these factors will play into any decision they make...its not simply "Waaaa...they took a step back! I want out!". And even if they did, as long as they are under team control they don't get to choose where they go anyhow, they could end up in Arizona or San Jose...until they reach UFA status.

Petey and Hughes literally said it in various interviews.

I think we missed the opportunity to tank, which was like 3-4 years ago.

You mean they said "We hate to lose and want to play on a winning team"? Stop the presses. lol

 

[MS]

Petey and Hughes literally said it in various interviews.

I think we missed the opportunity to tank, which was like 3-4 years ago.

We did an accidental tank between 15-16 and 18-19 which was at the correct time/opportunity but wasn't maximized because Jim Benning is an absolute moron.

We got the core star players which is the most important part but didn't accumulate the depth of assets we should have and then blocked off our track back up the standings with $40 million in blown cap space.

We should have been signing/trading for Pietrangelos and Stones in 2019 and 2020 but instead we were gutting our core veterans.

 

[TruGr1t]

I love how you guys call this a one step back because you know, trading away your whole top6 and almost all your centers away is just a casual step back. It’s only like 300ish points worth, no biggie. Top line forwards, ppg center, all of that are easily replaceable.

Just be f***ing honest about it. You guys don’t want a “step back” and you know what you are suggesting is not simply a step back. you guys want a rebuild and you all know that is no longer palatable so you are now calling it a step back. You know what is actually a step back? Last f***ing season was the definition of a step back, the only problem was that it wasn’t back enough for you guys.

This is an oversimplification. The main argument for trading Horvat and Miller had a lot to do with salary flexibility, filling holes in the line-up that remain unfilled to this day due to salary constraints, and re-stocking the farm system.

I think that tact turned out to be correct given the flat-cap environment and the pure amount of quality NHLers available for basically nothing in trade because cap space has become essentially the most valuable asset on the market.

I think you could have traded Horvat and Miller, found reasonable veteran replacements on shorter-term contracts with that cap space, improved your depth, and increased your draft and prospect capital. All while probably icing a team with comparable chances at the playoffs.

The reason the organization is icing effectively the same team, with the changes largely around the margins, is because they did not provide themselves avenues to make impact improvements to the roster either via trade or FA. If they wanted to seriously tweak the roster around Pettersson and Hughes, the past 18 months would have been a perfect time given how many players were available for relatively cheap due to contracts and cap concerns.

Instead, the long-term probability of Pettersson signing a new contract is still relatively unknown, and will probably be largely predicated on this roster meaningfully improving next season, which is absolutely no sure thing. They could easily miss the playoffs again next year.

I don't mind some of the recent moves at all, but this regime has been way too conservative and slow on the trigger, and as a result, there is still a rather concerning chance they lose Pettersson if things go south next year.

And they're once again capped out to the gills, with no ability to do anything creative or progressive to improve the roster. And it's no longer just Benning, the cap issue is now Allvin's creation as well.