Management Threads | Structure. Standards. Habits.

[rypper]

Except throughout the NHL this happens quite regularly.

Players want to tough it out and often play down their injuries because they want to help the boys.

Its sort of a male health issue in general. Putting stuff off until it becomes something much worse.

Remember the last few seasons when the Canucks listed some players as "day-to-day" and then suddenly they're out for 2 months?

Its really not so clear-cut.

It doesn't happen at the tail end of a blown season. Help the boys? Help with what? There was nothing to play for.

But this is getting away from the main point, the seriousness of the injury. He came in to show the new coach and team who he was. Then shut down to be ready for next season. If he had a nagging repetitive shoulder injury would he have done that? No.

 

[Diogenes92]

It doesn't happen at the tail end of a blown season. Help the boys? Help with what? There was nothing to play for.

But this is getting away from the main point, the seriousness of the injury. He came in to show the new coach and team who he was. Then shut down to be ready for next season. If he had a nagging repetitive shoulder injury would he have done that? No.

You seem really sure about this without having any insider info.

I wish I had your confidence.

 

[MS]

You seem really sure about this without having any insider info.

I wish I had your confidence.

If you’re disagreeing with the position that Hronek’s 23-day injury is some sort of long-term problem, the onus is on you to provide evidence for that, not the opposite.

This was a short-term injury that didn’t require surgery and that the club does not appear terribly concerned about. I haven’t seen any reason not to take that at face value.

 

[andora]

You seem really sure about this without having any insider info.

I wish I had your confidence.

And your theories dont appear to have anything to reference either

I think it is far more reasonable to accept that a professional sports team evaluated a player and deemed him ok enough to play. He played to see where it was at and to show what he is. Said professional sports team evaluated him and decided to shut him down because he still felt it and it wasnt worth it. Does that sound reasonable?

 

[arttk]

Why don't all players just pout their way to winning teams right from the draft on? Why should Connor Bedard waste the next 4-5 years languishing on a shitty rebuilding team? Because these players aren't usually as unhappy with life as you're making them out to be...if you are a GM with any charisma at all, you can sell these players on a vision...if you have a vision that shows QH and Petey as the foundational pillars of the team, and you are willing to pay them and surround them with talent as they are able to, you should be able to convince them to stay for a while...if not, f*** em...trade them for pieces that will stay. These players (and their agents) aren't stupid, they are always calculating money, team environment, tax rates, lifestyles, relationships, capacity for SC contention...and all of these factors will play into any decision they make...its not simply "Waaaa...they took a step back! I want out!". And even if they did, as long as they are under team control they don't get to choose where they go anyhow, they could end up in Arizona or San Jose...until they reach UFA status.



You mean they said "We hate to lose and want to play on a winning team"? Stop the presses. lol

RFA is a powerful retention tool. Bedard is going to be tied to Chicago until he is 26/27 and yeah he can just sign short term and threaten to leave when he is on his last rfa contract, there is nothing to stop him from doing it.

I don't think there are that many star players that ends up spending their 19-27years on a rebuilding team.

.if you have a vision that shows QH and Petey as the foundational pillars of the team, and you are willing to pay them and surround them with talent as they are able to, you should be able to convince them to stay for a while...if not, f*** em...trade them for pieces that will stay. These players (and their agents) aren't stupid, they are always calculating money, team

tanking/rebuilding and hoping the draft picks turns out to be good is not "surrounding them with talent". the process of a rebuild requires the team to be devoid of talent so that is the opposite of what you suggest.

Also it's not that visiony to say, we are going to suck hard and we are going to draft a lot and really well and in 4 years when you are like 28, those reinforcements will be there. just hang in there for 4 more years of sucking.

You mean they said "We hate to lose and want to play on a winning team"? Stop the presses. lol

No, i was referring to this when Quinn said " we don't want to be here for a rebuild"
"We don't want to be here for a rebuild": Quinn Hughes supports Canucks retool | Offside

 

[PuckMunchkin]

Petey and Hughes literally said it in various interviews.

I think we missed the opportunity to tank, which was like 3-4 years ago.

People say a lot of things.

You cannot use it as a fact in your argument.



edit.

When have you heard players say "Yeah I think I would like to go through a rebuild." D

 

[RandV]

The funny thing is that in the last five years you would have been wrong, considering Petey and Quinn signed an extension despite the team being bottom ten in wins since they started.

When they signed those extensions they still had a lot of RFA years in front of them and their covid playoffs was just the season prior. It's an issue now because correct me if I'm wrong, but Pettersson can just accept the QO next year, or if not hold out for a 1 year deal, then walk as a UFA the year after.

While people talk about wanting to take a step back the last few seasons there was also the opportunity to take a step forward following that playoff run, if Benning didn't pull his Jimbo special and walk the team 2 steps back.

 

[Diogenes92]

If you’re disagreeing with the position that Hronek’s 23-day injury is some sort of long-term problem, the onus is on you to provide evidence for that, not the opposite.

This was a short-term injury that didn’t require surgery and that the club does not appear terribly concerned about. I haven’t seen any reason not to take that at face value.

23-day injury?

So, right at the end of the season his injury just disappeared becauee it was no longer being tracked by games missed?

 

[Canucker]

RFA is a powerful retention tool. Bedard is going to be tied to Chicago until he is 26/27 and yeah he can just sign short term and threaten to leave when he is on his last rfa contract, there is nothing to stop him from doing it.

I don't think there are that many star players that ends up spending their 19-27years on a rebuilding team.

tanking/rebuilding and hoping the draft picks turns out to be good is not "surrounding them with talent". the process of a rebuild requires the team to be devoid of talent so that is the opposite of what you suggest.

Also it's not that visiony to say, we are going to suck hard and we are going to draft a lot and really well and in 4 years when you are like 28, those reinforcements will be there. just hang in there for 4 more years of sucking.


No, i was referring to this when Quinn said " we don't want to be here for a rebuild"
"We don't want to be here for a rebuild": Quinn Hughes supports Canucks retool | Offside

I don't agree that it needed to be as stark as "we're going to suck for the next 4 years, so buckle up Buttercup"...the team has been in no way close to being a serious playoff contender for some time now, and they've been under serious cap constraints and had crap for tangible assets they could move to help...If I were Petey/QH, I would be more pissed off that we hadn't tried to rebuild sooner. These guys aren't stupid (I hope), I'm sure they know the state of the franchise and if they don't I'm sure their agents have a pretty good grasp of it...they would have to be pretty ignorant if they couldn't see how poorly Benning left the organization and the obstacles that still remain.

And the idea that this needs to be a tear it down to nothing kind of rebuild is not anything what I would have suggested...you have your core 3 of Demko, Hughes and Petey and build around that...they have some other servicable bits and pieces, and start building around that...and it doesn't just have to be just for draft picks...they already showed the types of moves you can make with the Horvat/Hronek deals. Trade your marketable assets for as much as you can and then flip some hard futures for some immediate/near future help. The idea that moving a few guys like Horvat, Miller, Boeser, Garland, Myers, etc would really constitute a rebuild (and I think thats who most people were really talking about moving in their rebuild) is pretty weak IMO, these are guys who I think a LOT of people, including management) would like to move on from.

Honestly, thats a pretty canned answer from QH...I mean who really wants to be around for a rebuild? I wouldn't take it as some sort of veiled threat, just a guy who wants to win...like most competitive athletes.

 

[MS]

23-day injury?

So, right at the end of the season his injury just disappeared becauee it was no longer being tracked by games missed?

If we weren't miles out of the playoffs, it was a 23-day injury. Probably would have been less than that, actually, if we were in the playoff hunt.

There is just absolutely zero evidence that this is anything to have significant concern over.

 

[Diogenes92]

And your theories dont appear to have anything to reference either

I think it is far more reasonable to accept that a professional sports team evaluated a player and deemed him ok enough to play. He played to see where it was at and to show what he is. Said professional sports team evaluated him and decided to shut him down because he still felt it and it wasnt worth it. Does that sound reasonable?

Do you remember what happened just last season surrounding misdiagnosed injuries?

It wasn't just Pearson. And it wasn't just last season.

This team has an abysmal track record when it comes to evaluating injuries. There are cold hard facts to look at if you are willing.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

People say a lot of things.

You cannot use it as a fact in your argument.



edit.

When have you heard players say "Yeah I think I would like to go through a rebuild." D

I think we have a pretty good idea who 'we" is..?



"I want to stay (in Vancouver) now, but I also want to play for a team that's winning and has the chance to go far into the playoffs every year," Pettersson said in Swedish as translated by Bodin...Elias Pettersson.

 

[Diogenes92]

If we weren't miles out of the playoffs, it was a 23-day injury. Probably would have been less than that, actually, if we were in the playoff hunt.

There is just absolutely zero evidence that this is anything to have significant concern over.

Zero evidence either way.

That's why I am simply giving my opinion on the matter. I never once said I was 100% right.

You're attempting to stonewall it.

 

[Reverend Mayhem]

I'll be concerned about Hronek's health come September. Before that, I don't really see anything concerning.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

At this point I would be far more concerned about Mikheyevs condition to start next season than Hronek.

 

[Vector]

At this point I would be far more concerned about Mikheyevs condition to start next season than Hronek.

Yes, this is the fair concern. The guy that actually had surgery.

 

[MS]

Zero evidence either way.

That's why I am simply giving my opinion on the matter. I never once said I was 100% right.

You're attempting to stonewall it.

The fact that the team has said it's not an issue at all is evidence. The fact it didn't require surgery is evidence. The fact he returned quickly is evidence.

 

[strattonius]

Zero evidence either way.

That's why I am simply giving my opinion on the matter. I never once said I was 100% right.

You're attempting to stonewall it.

You are catastrophizing the situation and when posters are calling you out on it you have no evidence (as you admit) to suggest its as bad as you think it is. Just wind down about it.

 

[andora]

Do you remember what happened just last season surrounding misdiagnosed injuries?

It wasn't just Pearson. And it wasn't just last season.

This team has an abysmal track record when it comes to evaluating injuries. There are cold hard facts to look at if you are willing.

What other ones were last year?

 

[arttk]

I don't agree that it needed to be as stark as "we're going to suck for the next 4 years, so buckle up Buttercup"...the team has been in no way close to being a serious playoff contender for some time now, and they've been under serious cap constraints and had crap for tangible assets they could move to help...If I were Petey/QH, I would be more pissed off that we hadn't tried to rebuild sooner. These guys aren't stupid (I hope), I'm sure they know the state of the franchise and if they don't I'm sure their agents have a pretty good grasp of it...they would have to be pretty ignorant if they couldn't see how poorly Benning left the organization and the obstacles that still remain.

And the idea that this needs to be a tear it down to nothing kind of rebuild is not anything what I would have suggested...you have your core 3 of Demko, Hughes and Petey and build around that...they have some other servicable bits and pieces, and start building around that...and it doesn't just have to be just for draft picks...they already showed the types of moves you can make with the Horvat/Hronek deals. Trade your marketable assets for as much as you can and then flip some hard futures for some immediate/near future help. The idea that moving a few guys like Horvat, Miller, Boeser, Garland, Myers, etc would really constitute a rebuild (and I think thats who most people were really talking about moving in their rebuild) is pretty weak IMO, these are guys who I think a LOT of people, including management) would like to move on from.

Honestly, thats a pretty canned answer from QH...I mean who really wants to be around for a rebuild? I wouldn't take it as some sort of veiled threat, just a guy who wants to win...like most competitive athletes.

If you trade away the following:

Miller - PPG center
Horvat - 60-70pt center
Kuz - 70pt forward
Garland - 50 pt forward
Boeser - 50-60ish point forward

The team is going to suck hard. Yes, I agree some guys are more replaceable than others (Garland, Boeser). But 1st line forwards like Miller and Kuz are the hardest pieces to acquire and there are not available in FA and require a lot of assets to acquire or luck and they are the difference between tanking and not tanking teams. It is super likely that we will continue to suck until you can find an actual replacement for them.

I think i need to also say this, replacing those players isn't really as simple as find a guy who puts as many points and tada you have a replacement, i mean it's that simple if you are f***ing Benning. If you look at what this management group is doing, they are more targeted and they want players that can put up points + play a style they want to implement. So with that, it's going to take a lot longer to replace those guys that you guys want to get rid of.

And the 4 years, yes you can tank last year and then this year you can say enough, no more tanking and you go ham and sign a bunch of FA and take on players that are given away for free. Odds are they you are just going to create a worse version of what we have now probably finishing the season in the mushy middle and getting a highish but not really high pick and then you repeat that over and over again until the picks comes in or you luck out with a bunch of FA. It's like you either rebuild, or you don't rebuild. The last thing you want to do is to go almost all in 1 year and think oh you are done and you can get out. You think if it was that easy every team would've tried that already.

Yes they wanted to trade away Miller, but they were targeting assets that they can use to get a 2C and fill another hole. You guys want to trade him for pure futures and yes if you trade him for pure futures, it will take awhile before you can fill his spot.

 

[Canucker]

If you trade away the following:

Miller - PPG center
Horvat - 60-70pt center
Kuz - 70pt forward
Garland - 50 pt forward
Boeser - 50-60ish point forward

The team is going to suck hard. Yes, I agree some guys are more replaceable than others (Garland, Boeser). But 1st line forwards like Miller and Kuz are the hardest pieces to acquire and there are not available in FA and require a lot of assets to acquire or luck and they are the difference between tanking and not tanking teams. It is super likely that we will continue to suck until you can find an actual replacement for them.

I think i need to also say this, replacing those players isn't really as simple as find a guy who puts as many points and tada you have a replacement, i mean it's that simple if you are f***ing Benning. If you look at what this management group is doing, they are more targeted and they want players that can put up points + play a style they want to implement. So with that, it's going to take a lot longer to replace those guys that you guys want to get rid of.

And the 4 years, yes you can tank last year and then this year you can say enough, no more tanking and you go ham and sign a bunch of FA and take on players that are given away for free. Odds are they you are just going to create a worse version of what we have now probably finishing the season in the mushy middle and getting a highish but not really high pick and then you repeat that over and over again until the picks comes in or you luck out with a bunch of FA. It's like you either rebuild, or you don't rebuild. The last thing you want to do is to go almost all in 1 year and think oh you are done and you can get out. You think if it was that easy every team would've tried that already.

Yes they wanted to trade away Miller, but they were targeting assets that they can use to get a 2C and fill another hole. You guys want to trade him for pure futures and yes if you trade him for pure futures, it will take awhile before you can fill his spot.

Are you suggesting its difficult to find 50-60pt wingers? I mean I wasn't ever suggesting we trade Kuz, unless he wasn't going to re-sign here...and you may not be able to replace a PPG player like Miller, point for point in immediate fashion, but you get SOMETHING back for him, maybe even two SOMETHINGS and some cap flexibility to do more SOMETHINGS....but Boeser and Garland are not really that hard to replace...even if you don't replace the production numbers you can find players who do more in other areas.

I'm not sure what path you think we are currently on, but IMO we're already headed straight for the "mushy middle"...this is the path there...I don't think any of the moves they have made thus far aim us towards the top of our conference, they are to try and stop some of the self-inflicted wounds that kept us from squeaking into a playoff spot last season (leaky defense and a horrific PK). My opinion was that the way forward required a step back, we needed cap flexibility and assets and not push to be a playoff bubble team...aim higher.

Alas a different path was taken...and thats fine, I'll be cheering for wins next year....unless we completely suck and losing becomes more beneficial to the cause.

 

[racerjoe]

It's incredible that people don't understand this. And it isn't like all of Pettersson/Hughes/Demko haven't made this very clear for the last two years, either.

Its this Part I don't understand. They have all said so, but you get people saying but they didn't really mean it right?

 

[vancityluongo]

I didn’t take the comment you were responding to be saying they were going all-in with these moves, just that there’s concern the team thinks this is enough.

These were all necessary moves no matter what else they try to do and they did a good job with them.

But this is offseason is a failure if this is all they accomplish given the direction they’ve chosen. They had the chance to reset a bit, be a bubble team that competes only to make the playoffs for a couple years, then pushes forward. They instead decided to push their chips in to make the next 2-3 years hugely important. This is their window now to push the team to the next level while Pettersson, Demko, Kuzmenko and Hronek are still cheap and Miller still provides value on his contract and not waste yet another year.

This is exactly how I feel.

The direction is forward - okay. And they want to accelerate. Same thing - sure. That's the strategy. It's not a re-tool or a rebuild, it's a build.

But from there, the only way to execute is by going essentially all-in. We need the current versions of the Stone and Pietrangelo moves, on top of the Soucy/Cole/Blueger signings. Are those available? And if they are - can we make them?

Because like you said, there's only a runway of 2-3 year more years before the current advantages they have are gone; but there isn't much dry powder left and we're also well behind the others gunning for the same timeline.

We basically have the same competitive window as the Oilers - two years - before we have to start operating like the Leafs are around the big-4. Which is certainly doable, but it will be tough.

In 2025/26, this team is going to be paying Pettersson, Miller, Kuzmenko (assuming he is re-signed), Mikheyev, Hughes, Hronek (assuming a long-term deal), Soucy, Demko, and OEL (assuming they ditch Garland) close to $60 million. They will need to fill 15 roster spots for ~$30-35 million, including 8-10 important spots where they need quality players.

Between Podkolzin, Hogland, Raty, EP2, Lekkerimaki they might have one or two more quality NHLers? Willander might make the team by then but is probably not going to be a difference maker. That's still a lot of holes to fill and not much money to fill them. And that assumes Miller doesn't regress, everyone else carries on without injuries, etc. - basically a best case scenario for how things unfold.

Filling out that team is likely going to be a much bigger mess than what they are facing today.

100%.

And to avoid or at least have some flexibility to deal with the ~$60M to 8 roster players+OEL issue... they basically have to structure Hronek's extension *now* so that he doesn't have meaningful trade protection after next season, so if (and they need this to be a when, not an if), Wallinder is ready to take his spot, they can trade Hronek and his high salary to fully utilize the value of Wallinder's ELC.

Kuzmenko also maybe turns into a luxury, not a need, and either they have to make due with a new UFA/Euro signing or hope that there's enough further down the lineup to backfill. Can Podkolzin or Lekkerimaki replace that production? Can you get utility out of a guy like Kravtsov? Maybe instead you have to walk from Demko (or trade him) and hope Silovs at half of the cost or less gets you 90-95% of the same performance and you try to make up that loss elsewhere.

Which isn't earth shattering - this is essentially what teams like Tampa and Colorado have had to do as they've had sweetheart deals expire and new market value extensions kick in. Difference/problem is, we may have to do it before we even become a true playoff team.

 

[arttk]

Are you suggesting its difficult to find 50-60pt wingers? I mean I wasn't ever suggesting we trade Kuz, unless he wasn't going to re-sign here...and you may not be able to replace a PPG player like Miller, point for point in immediate fashion, but you get SOMETHING back for him, maybe even two SOMETHINGS and some cap flexibility to do more SOMETHINGS....but Boeser and Garland are not really that hard to replace...even if you don't replace the production numbers you can find players who do more in other areas.

I'm not sure what path you think we are currently on, but IMO we're already headed straight for the "mushy middle"...this is the path there...I don't think any of the moves they have made thus far aim us towards the top of our conference, they are to try and stop some of the self-inflicted wounds that kept us from squeaking into a playoff spot last season (leaky defense and a horrific PK). My opinion was that the way forward required a step back, we needed cap flexibility and assets and not push to be a playoff bubble team...aim higher.

Alas a different path was taken...and thats fine, I'll be cheering for wins next year....unless we completely suck and losing becomes more beneficial to the cause.

I mean there are a bunch who were suggesting to trade Kuz as well.
We know what Miller was going to return, super late 1st like 28-32nd late, Chytil and Lundkvist. Lundkvist is like a right handed but better version of Ratbone and doesn't really fill a hole considering he can only play on the 3rd pair and Chytil is a zero PP, zero PK pure ES center that causes more roster issue than it solves. Also if you are describing as if, well we can get SOMETHING for our PPG center, then it should be obvious you shouldn't make that trade because SOMETHING is not a good endorsement of value.

We have a 100pt center, PPG center, 70ish point winger, 3x50pt winger, 1 PPG 1D and 40-50ish pt 2D and a top5 goalie *if healthy*. We are only really like 1 top 4D and 1 3C away like 5-6 place in the conference standings. I honestly don't know why you guys think we are THAT far away. Like yes, we probably can't get that this year but I think we should be able to cobble together the assets by getting rid of Garland, Myers, Beau and hopefully Pearson if he is healthy enough to fill that 3C hole. Just continue add 2 more pieces every single year and balance that out with cheap players coming in to fill the 4th line and 3rd paring.

 

[Diogenes92]

1. The fact that the team has said it's not an issue at all is evidence.

Disagree.

The fact it didn't require surgery is evidence.

I agree. Although it has happened before that a player chooses not to get surgery and then 6 months down the road needs the surgery. I hope this isn't the case btw.

The fact he returned quickly is evidence.

He also left after 4 games and the team admitted he wasn't fully healthy and didn't want to risk anything getting worse.

Them saying he would've been good for the playoffs means nothing when you see what types of injuries players play through. Look at the Florida roster for example.

NHL players are warriors.