Management Threads | Structure. Standards. Habits.

[strattonius]

I don't get it. Some of you can sensibly see that Benning was an utter disaster and systemically destroyed the last decade of this organization; But then one breath later complain at current management for not having our roster a finely tuned playoff lock for the coming season. There's been little time and they just convinced Aquilini to plunge 20M down the toilet on a player he had just been convinced would shape our blueline - it must have been an organized pitch.

 

[bossram]

This 'playoffs now no matter what' narrative is BS. This isn't Benning. The oldest player they've acquired is 27.

They're trying to build around the very good young players they have, as well as create an environment those very good young players want to stay in.

It's the only thing they can do with the mess that they inherited. The crowd who wants the magical full tank from this or the even more magical 2-year rebuild where Pettersson and Hughes are still there at the end of it are living in fantasy land championing things that would never ever happen in real life, and then having a temper tantrum when those things predictably don't happen.

And yeah, of course there's some urgency. There damn well should be after the last 3 seasons have been derailed after the promise of 2020.

But for sure, keep on going with the Chicago FOMO for transactions that should have happened in 2016. That ship has sailed.

I mean yeah, would a rebuild be overall the right direction in my view? Yes. But I know they're not going that route.

Instead of hemorrhaging yet more assets to make the playoffs now, they could gradually build up the player and asset base. Use the Horvat trade picks. Have traded Miller previously. Instead of signing Mikheyev, use the cap space to take on a somewhat useful cap dump player for payment....or actually address the team's area of need in the Marino trade. Move Beauvillier for something.

There's a range between "scorched earth" and whatever it is the team is doing now.

There's no guarantee Petey or Hughes will want to stay after they see the results of the current "plan" either.

 

[credulous]

I don't get it. Some of you can sensibly see that Benning was an utter disaster and systemically destroyed the last decade of this organization; But then one breath later complain at current management for not having our roster a finely tuned playoff lock for the coming season. There's been little time and they just convinced Aquilini to plunge 20M down the toilet on a player he had just been convinced would shape our blueline - it must have been an organized pitch.

i don't really blame them for not having rebuilt the roster into a playoff lock. however if they keep making moves that only really benefit the next two years (oel buyout, the kuzmenko contract, hronek and horvat trades) then they really need to make the playoffs to convince me they were the right moves

 

[m9]

I don't get it. Some of you can sensibly see that Benning was an utter disaster and systemically destroyed the last decade of this organization; But then one breath later complain at current management for not having our roster a finely tuned playoff lock for the coming season. There's been little time and they just convinced Aquilini to plunge 20M down the toilet on a player he had just been convinced would shape our blueline - it must have been an organized pitch.

I think the mess previous management made has put a ceiling on this group for the next few years - barring some incredible luck or the best management we've had here, this isn't going to be a perennial contending team. It's the same reason why some (myself included) would have preferred a different direction. But, I will judge them based on the execution of the direction they took.

But I absolutely don't buy that they were in such a bad spot that when management was fired in December of 2021 that they couldn't create a team in the playoff mix for 2023-24. The contracts still on the books from that time for this upcoming season are certainly manageable. There is no excuse for another season like what we saw last year.

 

[rypper]

I don't know why exactly, but I think they'll make the playoffs next season. This can be used later as a receipt by me to gloat, or by others to rub in my face, fun for everyone!

 

[bossram]

Problem is that you actually believe is playoff now no matter what. That would imply us trading this years first, next years first, any prospects we have which simply is not true.

Some of us see them going to the, make the playoffs without mortgaging the future and spending only assets we get from trades for players we don’t want route( not trade our 1st this or next year, Pod, Hog, Lekkerimaki).

Not even true contenders trade every single one of their premium picks every season. If this is the bar for going "all-in", then I guess no team is. Vegas has their own first this draft. By your standards, I guess they were just biding their time and fell into the Stanley Cup by accident.

Again, this is a team that is consistently capped out, consistently at a draft pick deficit, has a poor prospect pool, and just exercised a massive buyout to give themselves a modicum of breathing room. Are these the actions of a team that is not "all-in"?

 

[m9]

I don't know why exactly, but I think they'll make the playoffs next season. This can be used later as a receipt by me to gloat, or by others to rub in my face, fun for everyone!

I'm optimistic they can be in the 7th-10th range depending what happens these next couple of weeks.

I think they need to clear out a wing contract. That should give them 15 million+ to acquire two bottom-six forwards and two defensive or all-around defensemen. If they nail those moves, they will definitely be in the mix.

I guess that's why I think they should on the hook here a bit for this season. They're setup with some pretty attainable goals. If they spend another off-season chasing things they don't need then that's on them.

 

[rypper]

Are these the actions of a team that is not "all-in"?

I think we need to see what they do with the space. I'd say the driving force behind the buyout was clearing an inefficient contract out to allow them to make other deals.

(Ie. They able to have serious discussions on say Garland while other teams know they're already over the cap.)

I think they're going to make moves to continue to try to be competitive and make the playoffs, but future focused and not just for next year kind plan.

 

[arttk]

Not even true contenders trade every single one of their premium picks every season. If this is the bar for going "all-in", then I guess no team is. Vegas has their own first this draft. By your standards, I guess they were just biding their time and fell into the Stanley Cup by accident.

Again, this is a team that is consistently capped out, consistently at a draft pick deficit, has a poor prospect pool, and just exercised a massive buyout to give themselves a modicum of breathing room. Are these the actions of a team that is not "all-in"?

when Leafs went all in, they trade this year and next years 1st, when Tampa goes all in, they trade a 1st, 2nd,3rd, 4th and 5th. Vegas traded their 1st and their like few remaining prospects, Boston traded their 1st and bunch to stuff.

What you think the “all” stands for when you use the term “all in”?

If you feel like I am not interpreting what you are saying right then don’t use the term all in.

 

[RandV]

Having 13M devoted to a paring that can’t defend and is a main cause of a historically bad PK is a shit situation. Having those two guys on inflated contracts with NMC and NTC makes it almost impossible for them to move.
With that much cap commitment to a paring that suck, it’s very hard to fix the D because there is no cap for it and also no prospects in the pipe to do it.

Just inherit a historically bad PK and overpaid, unimproveable D core alone is messy. Then you add on top of that the fact there is no draft or prospects assets that is available to facilitate trades or to ride through this mess makes things even more messy.

Yeah I mean you can't really emphasize that enough. If you could just pluck players for free over to the Canucks, you could have say Alex Pietrangelo and Brett Pesce for a smaller cap hit, make that swap and we're a playoff team. Things obviously don't work that way but considering what Benning paid to get Myers and OEL it's not unreasonable to ask that maybe we could have had positive contributions on the blue line for that cap hit.

Also a bit harder to pin down but from the last 3 drafts we're missing two 1sts, two 2nd, and two 3rd round picks.

 

[bossram]

when Leafs went all in, they trade this year and next years 1st, when Tampa goes all in, they trade a 1st, 2nd,3rd, 4th and 5th. Vegas traded their 1st and their like few remaining prospects, Boston traded their 1st and bunch to stuff.

What you think the “all” stands for when you use the term “all in”?

If you feel like I am not interpreting what you are saying right then don’t use the term all in.

The Leafs went out and traded to get a 1st back. Again, Vegas is holding their own first round pick for this season. By your definition of "all-in", even these contenders are not "all-in".

My definition of "all-in" is that a club is repeatedly and continually making a series of short-sighted moves in order to improve the roster immediately, at the cost of the long-term.

 

[arttk]

The Leafs went out and traded to get a 1st back. Again, Vegas is holding their own first round pick for this season. By your definition of "all-in", even these contenders are not "all-in".

My definition of "all-in" is that a club is repeatedly and continually making a series of short-sighted moves in order to improve the roster immediately, at the cost of the long-term.

Sure if you want to say as long as you retain a 1st rounder it’s not all in, I can agree with that definition. So with that only really Boston and Tampa and Edmonton went all in.

I don’t think everyone needs to know what your own personal definition of a well defined and understood term is. When you go to the casino and you say go all in, do you think other people will get that oh you should put all the chip except the most expensive ones in? When somebody tells you oh a sports team went all in, you know exactly what they mean, there is a reason we use well defined so we don’t need to explain what it means.

You are either trying to exaggerate things or you are too damn lazy to actually say, this org is trading a lot but still preserving some core future pieces to get into the playoffs.

And all their moves are a mix of short sighted and long sighted. They made a bunch of moves for younger guys like Stud, Bear, Kravstov, Raty that’s longer thinking and they traded a 2nd to get rid of Dickinson and got a future piece back in bloom. There are like short sighted moves like resigning Boeser, and nuking OEL and reupping Miller. To only say that they made a bunch of short sighted moves while ignoring all the other longer term moves is also an exaggeration.

 

[m9]

The Canucks were out of the playoff race by December so it's not really fair to compare if they went "all-in" vs teams that were buying rentals months later. I think through the off-season and early into the season they were making moves consistent with a team that was trying to make the playoffs. Would I term it as "all-in"? No.

I also don't think "all-in" means you have to throw all of your picks/assets in. Like, the OEL trade was an "all-in" move. They were trading a ton of future assets (picks & cap space) for pieces to help their immediate team.

 

[mriswith]

I don't get it. Some of you can sensibly see that Benning was an utter disaster and systemically destroyed the last decade of this organization; But then one breath later complain at current management for not having our roster a finely tuned playoff lock for the coming season. There's been little time and they just convinced Aquilini to plunge 20M down the toilet on a player he had just been convinced would shape our blueline - it must have been an organized pitch.

A lot of us wanted them to take their time and do it right.

Sell the UFA aged guys and build around the real core of Petey/Hughes, accepting that we were going to be bad for the next two years when mgmt took over no matter what, so use that time as development and mini-stockpile years instead of just spinning our wheels, burning assets and still being bad like we ended up doing.

Instead new mgmt has been trying and failing to compete immediately. Every move has been prioritizing the immediate short term since they took over.

If they're choosing to prioritize competing immediately and short term competitiveness instead of building with the medium or long term in mind then they will be judged on how competitive they are immediately. I won't accept judging them over a long time frame when every action they take is for immediate gratification and sometimes compromises the future.

 

[bossram]

Sure if you want to say as long as you retain a 1st rounder it’s not all in, I can agree with that definition. So with that only really Boston and Tampa and Edmonton went all in.

I don’t think everyone needs to know what your own personal definition of a well defined and understood term is. When you go to the casino and you say go all in, do you think other people will get that oh you should put all the chip except the most expensive ones in? When somebody tells you oh a sports team went all in, you know exactly what they mean, there is a reason we use well defined so we don’t need to explain what it means.

You are either trying to exaggerate things or you are too damn lazy to actually say, this org is trading a lot but still preserving some core future pieces to get into the playoffs.

And all their moves are a mix of short sighted and long sighted. They made a bunch of moves for younger guys like Stud, Bear, Kravstov, Raty that’s longer thinking and they traded a 2nd to get rid of Dickinson and got a future piece back in bloom. There are like short sighted moves like resigning Boeser, and nuking OEL and reupping Miller. To only say that they made a bunch of short sighted moves while ignoring all the other longer term moves is also an exaggeration.

This appears to be a ridiculous assertion, considering we are debating the meaning of "all-in". Your definition of all-in is so restrictive that a team would have to trade their entire draft class to accomplish it. To continue the poker analogy, your definition of "all-in" would be that the player is literally putting all of the money have across all their bank accounts into the middle.

The Canucks' moves of consequence are largely for the short-term. The "long-sighted" (wut) moves you referenced were of little-to-no consequence or came at a negligible cost. They still aren't long-term moves. They were also age-gap moves where draft picks or pure prospects were moved for players farther along in their development curve. They were moves to speed up the competitive timeline. Yes, more short-sighted.

Dickinson dumping? Short-sighted. They moved out draft capital to gain cap space in the immediate-term.

Where are the moves to alleviate their long-term cap situation? To replenish their draft pick or prospect pool?

 

[I Hart Conor Garland]

That makes no f***ing sense. Like you said, team gets good and make playoffs. Are you suggesting the Canucks are trying to build a shit team that makes the playoffs? How does a shit team make the playoffs?

Demko

 

[pitseleh]

Here’s what I think has to happen this offseason for it to be a success:

- Keep pick 11 unless someone gives you a cost controlled, quality young player for it. This team needs a few cost controlled players to build off any success they have this season and next, and pick 11 is by far their best shot at having that. They can’t move it unless replaced with something with similar upside.

- Dump a winger to make more cap space. Ideally Boeser, Beauvillier or Garland in that order. They need more space to upgrade core positions.

- Move any assets outside of Pettersson/Kuzmenko/Hughes/Hronek/11 for the best young defender moved this summer with a reasonable amount of control. Don’t get outbid unless someone else gives up a premium asset you can’t match.

- Pick up one more top-4 quality defender that plays on the opposite side of the other new acquisition. If they take a defender with pick 11, they should probably focus on a potential cap dump who can still play, like Grzelak. If not, then some term for someone like Soucy is fine.

- Find a good under the radar signing for 3C without blowing the bank. Basically someone that provides surplus value without hamstringing the team in a couple of season due to the size of contract.

With that, I think they make enough progress to justify the path they’re on. Bonus points for:

- Ditch the Miller contract before it kicks in and separately add a 2C to replace him. Will likely have to give up some PP utility in doing so but should be able to replace his EV value.

- Dump Myers without paying a ton.

 

[arttk]

This appears to be a ridiculous assertion, considering we are debating the meaning of "all-in". Your definition of all-in is so restrictive that a team would have to trade their entire draft class to accomplish it. To continue the poker analogy, your definition of "all-in" would be that the player is literally putting all of the money have across all their bank accounts into the middle.

The Canucks' moves of consequence are largely for the short-term. The "long-sighted" (wut) moves you referenced were of little-to-no consequence or came at a negligible cost. They still aren't long-term moves. They were also age-gap moves where draft picks or pure prospects were moved for players farther along in their development curve. They were moves to speed up the competitive timeline. Yes, more short-sighted.

Dickinson dumping? Short-sighted. They moved out draft capital to gain cap space in the immediate-term.

Where are the moves to alleviate their long-term cap situation? To replenish their draft pick or prospect pool?

I mean if you look at what Boston, Toronto, Tampa, Vegas, Edmonton, Rangers have done is without a doubt all in. They have all spent as much as their cap allowed in trades to push their team to the next level. When we mention all in, that’s what we all naturally refer to.

Future thinking moves, Raty was part of a Horvat return, to call that at a negligible cost is funny considering he is suppose to be the reason we took back Beauvelier. By your definition then anything that is not drafted related is too damn short sighted for you eh. What a way to view things. They have to 100% into rebuild to have any type of future vision. Betting on young kids to breakout at a low cost, that’s apparently short sighted. I imagine signing guys from college and European FA is too short sighted as well right?

With Dickinson, yeah if they didn’t get anything back other than getting rid of a pick, that would be a very short term move. They did get a prospect back, one that is actually on track to be a 3rd line guy which would be a pretty decent outcome for a 2nd rounder. I guess he’s not high risk high reward enough for you to be considered a future thinking move.

Their plan has always been to retool and if it’s not telegraphed already, whatever cap space they have they will spend. There is no such thing as be forward thinking with cap. I guess the only real planning is to have enough to extend Petey and eventually Kuz and Hughes.

A future thinking move that somehow you don’t realize is what they have done in the farm when it comes to beefing up development. There is more to prospect than just pure draft draft draft. Almost all of our prospects took a giant step in Abby this last season after all the changes they made in development coaches. That is actually the shit that matters rather than just throw everything away for picks and hope for the best.

So I guess that is the point for you, they are not rebuilding and swapping all assets for picks so therefore everything they do in your mind is going all in. You seem to have a very warped definition of what all in means.

Like honestly, we get it you guys are f***ing butthurt as f*** that this management group won’t rebuild. If you have so much f***ing patience for a f***ing 4-7 year rebuild then have some f***ing patience to see how they do after churning through all of Benning’s cap anchors. If they can’t right the ship then they are probably going to get fired and Hughes and Petey will demand out and you guys can finally enjoy another 4-7 years of pure suckage and getting stomped to the ground by the f***ing Flames and Oilers.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

What do you not get? Getting told you are axed is a similar experience regardless of industry. If you tell OEL he is getting bought out a week or two or days earlier you don’t think he’s going to think and stress about it? He’s still losing 1/3 of his pay. You don’t think he’s going to ask his agent to try to salvage it somehow only to eventually get stonewalled by the Nucks because they know they won’t pay any asset to make a trade happen. That’s why you don’t ever give people a heads unless there is a benefit in doing so which in this case there isn’t.

It’s funny to be called out as having an agenda by the guy with an obvious agenda.

Oh look who has an agenda here and need evidence to support the agenda.

Lumping in “not giving OEL more heads up about a buyout” with the BB thing is pretty telling about how you feel about this management group.

Nevermind the fact you added Dickinson there because you want to add another line item to make things look worse lol.

Hilarious.

 

[arttk]

Hilarious.

obviously you have never experienced it

 

[PuckMunchkin]

obviously you have never experienced it

Which one?

Getting fired as a IT worker or being the subject of the largest cash buyout in NHL history?

 

[arttk]

Which one?

Getting fired as a IT worker or being the subject of the largest cash buyout in NHL history?

Getting told you will be let go days or weeks before it actually happen. I don’t know maybe you can ask your boss if they want to lay you off , have them tell you a couple weeks in advance and see how you feel about it.

It’s really not that different, tech workers were getting a very generous package( not anywhere in OEL’s neighborhood) but like OEL, a lot of engineers were losing million in stocks (like how OEL was losing 12M in future earnings). When people learn they might lose that much future earnings in advance, they freak the f*** out.

Oh so you do recognize that he is the recipient of the largest cash buyout in history. Tell me again how does it benefit OEL to know know a couple days or weeks in advance that he will be getting bought out? With that knowledge he can? How does that improve relationship with other players and agents?

 

[racerjoe]

I mean yeah, would a rebuild be overall the right direction in my view? Yes. But I know they're not going that route.

Instead of hemorrhaging yet more assets to make the playoffs now, they could gradually build up the player and asset base. Use the Horvat trade picks. Have traded Miller previously. Instead of signing Mikheyev, use the cap space to take on a somewhat useful cap dump player for payment....or actually address the team's area of need in the Marino trade. Move Beauvillier for something.

There's a range between "scorched earth" and whatever it is the team is doing now.

There's no guarantee Petey or Hughes will want to stay after they see the results of the current "plan" either.

I may not be understanding what you are saying here, so if I have what you mean wrong, I am sorry, my bad.

But your non rebuild idea is to trade Miller and Horvat for picks? Isn't that still a rebuild?

Marino has been talked about to death and the team really just didn't have the assets to make that trade. Rathbone is not viewed as an equal or even close to asset, and our pick wasn't as good. I wanted Marino last off season, I just didn't think he would go for what he ended up going for.

 

[arttk]

I mean yeah, would a rebuild be overall the right direction in my view? Yes. But I know they're not going that route.

Instead of hemorrhaging yet more assets to make the playoffs now, they could gradually build up the player and asset base. Use the Horvat trade picks. Have traded Miller previously. Instead of signing Mikheyev, use the cap space to take on a somewhat useful cap dump player for payment....or actually address the team's area of need in the Marino trade. Move Beauvillier for something.

There's a range between "scorched earth" and whatever it is the team is doing now.

There's no guarantee Petey or Hughes will want to stay after they see the results of the current "plan" either.

You know that you pretty much outline a rebuild.

When your retool hinges purely on getting picks and said picks not busting. The probability of it becoming a rebuild is more than quite likely.

Let’s ignore the fact that the odds of those picks busting is above 50%. Even if all the picks hit magically, they are 3 years away from hitting the NHL and unless they are like super rookies, you won’t get meaningful contribution until 4 or 5 years away. Meanwhile, the act of trading away your most important players and cap for picks, you have created a team that is quite poor and will very likely tank hard. But wait! There is cap and we can get players right? But the FA market is shit and doesn’t offer anyone that can remotely fill those holes. How about trades? Wait you just said we should not trade any picks so how are we getting players?

It all goes back to, yeah you just want to rebuild. Even your non rebuild ideas will lead to an accidental rebuild.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

Getting told you will be let go days or weeks before it actually happen. I don’t know maybe you can ask your boss if they want to lay you off , have them tell you a couple weeks in advance and see how you feel about it.

It’s really not that different, tech workers were getting a very generous package( not anywhere in OEL’s neighborhood) but like OEL, a lot of engineers were losing million in stocks (like how OEL was losing 12M in future earnings). When people learn they might lose that much future earnings in advance, they freak the f*** out.

Oh so you do recognize that he is the recipient of the largest cash buyout in history. Tell me again how does it benefit OEL to know know a couple days or weeks in advance that he will be getting bought out? With that knowledge he can? How does that improve relationship with other players and agents?

Just tell me one thing and you can PM me if you dont want to post it.

Do you ACTUALLY believe this is how the world works or are you just taking the position because it serves your argument of everything-management-does-is-fine?