Management Threads | Structure. Standards. Habits.

[credulous]

That makes no f***ing sense. Like you said, team gets good and make playoffs. Are you suggesting the Canucks are trying to build a shit team that makes the playoffs? How does a shit team make the playoffs?

i dunno you seem to think getting in the playoffs is the goal and will somehow translate into more success somehow. i think getting in the playoffs is a side effect of building a good team and achieving success

getting in the playoffs should be the furthest thing from your mind if you're trying to build a winner. you get that for *free* when you build a good team. you don't need to account for it

 

[arttk]

i dunno you seem to think getting in the playoffs is the goal and will somehow translate into more success somehow. i think getting in the playoffs is a side effect of building a good team and achieving success

getting in the playoffs should be the furthest thing from your mind if you're trying to build a winner. you get that for *free* when you build a good team. you don't need to account for it

Having a team to be a consistent playoff team is not a goal is a milestone.

 

[Cancuks]

It all boils down to the quality and depth of defense. We had a Cup winning quality defense in 2011 with Erhoff, Edler, Hamhuis, Bieksa, Salo as our core. The combination of skill, speed, shot blocking ability and physicality.

Last year we had Hughes and Schenn, the ghost of OEL, a chaos giraffe, an often injured and unreliable Ethan Bear, and a bunch of AHL or college free agents.

Just stack that defense against Vegas and it's laughably one-sided.

Next year, we're planning on going in with Hughes, a possibly injured Hronek, a chaos giraffe, an injured Bear, a bunch of AHLers and second year college free agents. One could make the arguement without Schenn and if they don't add some physicality that next year's version of "defense" could be even worse off.

I expect Rutherford and his figurehead Allvin recognize this and will overpay a Ryan Graves in free agency but anyone expecting different results next season is setting themselves up for a world of disappointment.

 

[bossram]

@bossram: I highly doubt Canucks management believes they can win the cup by squeaking into the playoffs and "getting lucky". Rutherford has clearly stated the team can't rely on hot goaltending.

On the other hand, I'm pretty sure they believe they have the key pieces to build a team that has a reasonable chance to win the cup and that qualifying for the playoffs is an important early milestone on their roadmap not only because it will make FAQ happy but because it will indicate the team is moving in the right direction.

As a long suffering fan who survived the Benning years, I am not totally convinced but I am willing to see how their plan unfolds before I draw any definitive conclusions. They've made some good moves but they've also made some mistakes and this year we'll get a good indication if they've learned from them and whether their plan is working.

If they don't think they're a contender right now, they're certainly not operating like it.

I disagree that they have enough quality, core pieces to have a "reasonable" chance at the Cup.

Regardless though, current management is likely never going to build a top tier stacked contender, but they're aiming to build a team that can regularly make the playoffs. Jim Benning was a guy that had been losing the game badly and asking for another chance hoping for a Hail Mary to save him. You don't have to equate the two together.

Then that's a failure and they shouldn't have the jobs. If they're not going to build a credible contender, then their plan really is nothing beyond "get in and anything can happen".

They're going all-in just to try and squeak in the playoffs, let alone become a contender. And they haven't even shown they can accomplish that yet.

I think we need to snap out of the mentality of let’s not make the playoffs if you are not a contender.

There is nothing wrong to be a consistent playoff team and every season you look at ways to upgrade the roster to get better until you become a contender. Being a consistent playoff teams and having lower picks doesn’t mean you can’t improve over time.

They're not a consistent playoff team, or anything even remotely close to it. Sure, if you're a consistent playoff team and need to sacrifice draft picks/cap space/prospects etc. to get into the next level, that's one thing. To be doing that in the hopes that they can maybe make the playoffs, that's another.

 

[strattonius]

They're going all-in just to try and squeak in the playoffs, let alone become a contender. And they haven't even shown they can accomplish that yet.

I view 'all in' a little differently and I'm sure management does too.

They traded Horvat, everyone got excited. They then flipped those assets for Hronek and now everyone is clamoring 'all in! All in!'.

Trying to build a competitive roster with the core we have in place is not an 'all in' moment. That will likely be in a couple years when this management needs a result to keep their jobs. At the moment they are just trying to improve a severely deficient roster.

 

[bossram]

I view 'all in' a little differently and I'm sure management does too.

They traded Horvat, everyone got excited. They then flipped those assets for Hronek and now everyone is clamoring 'all in! All in!'.

Trying to build a competitive roster with the core we have in place is not an 'all in' moment. That will likely be in a couple years when this management needs a result to keep their jobs. At the moment they are just trying to improve a severely deficient roster.

They've been consistently completely capped out, continually trade away picks, have a terrible prospect pool (as of now before they select at #11), have resorted to paying to dump salary, and just engaged in one of the largest ordinary buyouts in the NHL to just get enough breathing room to be cap compliant.

These are actions that an all-in contender does. I think a team that is not "all-in" would behave quite differently.

 

[RandV]

Then that's a failure and they shouldn't have the jobs. If they're not going to build a credible contender, then their plan really is nothing beyond "get in and anything can happen".

They're going all-in just to try and squeak in the playoffs, let alone become a contender. And they haven't even shown they can accomplish that yet.

Tampa, Colorado, last season Boston, are 'top tier contenders'. Seattle, Winnipeg, Minnesota, Long Island, are what you're categorizing as "get in and anything can happen".

What I'm talking about is the larger group in between: Vegas, Dallas, Edmonton, LA, Toronto, Florida, Carolina, New York. Good teams that have regularly made the playoffs without that final success, with Vegas graduating from the group this season. This is the range I'm talking about and where management is aiming for.

Being a top tier contender requires a whole lot of luck and is usually only like 2-4 teams in any given season. In a 32 team league it's not really reasonable to expect that, and it's not required to win the Cup as you can do so from the 5-12 range.

 

[strattonius]

They've been consistently completely capped out, continually trade away picks, have a terrible prospect pool (as of now before they select at #11), have resorted to paying to dump salary, and just engaged in one of the largest ordinary buyouts in the NHL to just get enough breathing room to be cap compliant.

These are actions that an all-in contender does. I think a team that is not "all-in" would behave quite differently.

They are in the midst of cleaning a large dump that was left behind and are changing roster cap allocation.

We have different views of what all in is.

 

[MS]

I think we need to snap out of the mentality of let’s not make the playoffs if you are not a contender.

There is nothing wrong to be a consistent playoff team and every season you look at ways to upgrade the roster to get better until you become a contender. Being a consistent playoff teams and having lower picks doesn’t mean you can’t improve over time.

This fanbase is so weird right now and I continually don't even know how to react to it.

The reactions to perfectly normal (and correct) decision-making and planning are just this mess of Benning trauma and tanking FOMO and false equivalencies.

 

[arttk]

This fanbase is so weird right now and I continually don't even know how to react to it.

The reactions to perfectly normal (and correct) decision-making and planning are just this mess of Benning trauma and tanking FOMO and false equivalencies.

Seriously.
Going all in and I mean ALL IN by trading every pick and all assets and cap to build a team barely good enough to squeak into the playoffs is a distinctively Benning only mantra.
There is no reason to think any other GM would think that way, especially a POHO that has built 2 championship team in different ways.

 

[Bojack Horvatman]

It all boils down to the quality and depth of defense. We had a Cup winning quality defense in 2011 with Erhoff, Edler, Hamhuis, Bieksa, Salo as our core. The combination of skill, speed, shot blocking ability and physicality.

Last year we had Hughes and Schenn, the ghost of OEL, a chaos giraffe, an often injured and unreliable Ethan Bear, and a bunch of AHL or college free agents.

Just stack that defense against Vegas and it's laughably one-sided.

Next year, we're planning on going in with Hughes, a possibly injured Hronek, a chaos giraffe, an injured Bear, a bunch of AHLers and second year college free agents. One could make the arguement without Schenn and if they don't add some physicality that next year's version of "defense" could be even worse off.

I expect Rutherford and his figurehead Allvin recognize this and will overpay a Ryan Graves in free agency but anyone expecting different results next season is setting themselves up for a world of disappointment.

The state of the blueline is the way it is for 3 reasons:

1. We have only drafted 3 defensemen in the first 2 rounds of the draft in the last 15 years. Also none in the first 2 rounds since 2018. It's possible to get good D in the later rounds, but the guys taken in the first 2 rounds are going to have a much more likely to be a hit. When you only have drafted a few defencemen, it is likely only 1-2 of them hit. Of course the team is going to be hurting for D. It doesn't help that we have traded away so many picks and have very little to show for it.

2) Our development has been terrible.

3) Terrible coaching and systems.

I think new management has done a good job at fixing 2 and 3, but hasn't figured out 1 yet. We don't have 2nds for the next 2 seasons. It's very tough to build a defense through trade and free agency. They are very expensive. Just look what we paid for Hronek, who we will really only get 1 cheap year of. We need to start devoting our on defenders, and a big part of it is having picks.

 

[bossram]

Tampa, Colorado, last season Boston, are 'top tier contenders'. Seattle, Winnipeg, Minnesota, Long Island, are what you're categorizing as "get in and anything can happen".

What I'm talking about is the larger group in between: Vegas, Dallas, Edmonton, LA, Toronto, Florida, Carolina, New York. Good teams that have regularly made the playoffs without that final success, with Vegas graduating from the group this season. This is the range I'm talking about and where management is aiming for.

Being a top tier contender requires a whole lot of luck and is usually only like 2-4 teams in any given season. In a 32 team league it's not really reasonable to expect that, and it's not required to win the Cup as you can do so from the 5-12 range.

I don't think the Canucks are remotely close to being in that larger group either. With the transactions they've made, they're pretty much trying to be next season's Winnipeg Jets.

They are in the midst of cleaning a large dump that was left behind and are changing roster cap allocation.

We have different views of what all in is.

Clearing out Benning's mess doesn't mean they had to bleed more assets and keep adding cap commitments.

This fanbase is so weird right now and I continually don't even know how to react to it.

The reactions to perfectly normal (and correct) decision-making and planning are just this mess of Benning trauma and tanking FOMO and false equivalencies.

Or it's possible that some people think that whatever management is trying to do will not lead the team to becoming a credible Cup threat.

 

[tradervik]

I disagree that they have enough quality, core pieces to have a "reasonable" chance at the Cup.

Sure, that's a reasonable position. I'm on the fence.

 

[MS]

Or it's possible that some people think that whatever management is trying to do will not lead the team to becoming a credible Cup threat.

They're doing literally the only thing they can sensibly and reasonably do with the roster and players they've been handed.

 

[bossram]

They're doing literally the only thing they can sensibly and reasonably do with the roster and players they've been handed.

Not even remotely true. They have a wide array of organizational pathways. They've chosen the "playoffs now no matter what pathway". That's a decision.

 

[MS]

Not even remotely true. They have a wide array of organizational pathways. They've chosen the "playoffs now no matter what pathway". That's a decision.

This 'playoffs now no matter what' narrative is BS. This isn't Benning. The oldest player they've acquired is 27.

They're trying to build around the very good young players they have, as well as create an environment those very good young players want to stay in.

It's the only thing they can do with the mess that they inherited. The crowd who wants the magical full tank from this or the even more magical 2-year rebuild where Pettersson and Hughes are still there at the end of it are living in fantasy land championing things that would never ever happen in real life, and then having a temper tantrum when those things predictably don't happen.

And yeah, of course there's some urgency. There damn well should be after the last 3 seasons have been derailed after the promise of 2020.

But for sure, keep on going with the Chicago FOMO for transactions that should have happened in 2016. That ship has sailed.

 

[m9]

This 'playoffs now no matter what' narrative is BS. This isn't Benning. The oldest player they've acquired is 27.

They're trying to build around the very good young players they have, as well as create an environment those very good young players want to stay in.

It's the only thing they can do with the mess that they inherited. The crowd who wants the magical full tank from this or the even more magical 2-year rebuild where Pettersson and Hughes are still there at the end of it are living in fantasy land championing things that would never ever happen in real life, and then having a temper tantrum when those things predictably don't happen.

And yeah, of course there's some urgency. There damn well should be after the last 3 seasons have been derailed after the promise of 2020.

But for sure, keep on going with the Chicago FOMO for transactions that should have happened in 2016. That ship has sailed.

What makes the current situation for this season such an inherited mess?

They have 5 big inherited contracts on the book for this year that total 31 million: EP, Hughes, Demko, Myers, and Garland. You are getting $31 million worth of value out of that group, if not more. So, no problems there.

Pearson & Poolman will be LTIR. OEL will be a hit in future years, but not this year.

Every other meaningful contract on the books was signed by Allvin/JR.

If they aren't a good team this year, a large portion of that will be because of moves current management made.

 

[arttk]

Not even remotely true. They have a wide array of organizational pathways. They've chosen the "playoffs now no matter what pathway". That's a decision.

Problem is that you actually believe is playoff now no matter what. That would imply us trading this years first, next years first, any prospects we have which simply is not true.

Some of us see them going to the, make the playoffs without mortgaging the future and spending only assets we get from trades for players we don’t want route( not trade our 1st this or next year, Pod, Hog, Lekkerimaki).

What makes the current situation for this season such an inherited mess?

They have 5 big inherited contracts on the book for this year that total 31 million: EP, Hughes, Demko, Myers, and Garland. You are getting $31 million worth of value out of that group, if not more. So, no problems there.

Pearson & Poolman will be LTIR. OEL will be a hit in future years, but not this year.

Every other meaningful contract on the books was signed by Allvin/JR.

If they aren't a good team this year, a large portion of that will be because of moves current management made.

OEL, Myers, not a full draft worth of picks, no prospects in the pipe and fully capped out.

That is the inherited mess.

 

[m9]

OEL, Myers, not a full draft worth of picks, no prospects in the pipe and fully capped out.

That is the inherited mess.

I think the prospect situation/OEL buyout are future issues for sure. But what is "messy" in terms of what they have been handed for this year specifically?

Like I said, they have 5 big inherited contracts that cost $31 million including Myers but getting those five players for $31 million is a reasonable (if not pretty good) pricetag for this season overall as the EP/Hughes/Demko numbers for this year all are good. So, the inherited contracts are a non-issue to me now that OEL is off the books for this year.

Every other non-buriable cap hit was one under the watch of new management.

What we see this year is going to be this management group's creation. Last year they neglected their primary needs to chase secondary needs. There's no excuses for this management group this year - after the OEL buyout they've been put in position to create their playoff team. If they can't do it, it's on them.

 

[MS]

What makes the current situation for this season such an inherited mess?

They have 5 big inherited contracts on the book for this year that total 31 million: EP, Hughes, Demko, Myers, and Garland. You are getting $31 million worth of value out of that group, if not more. So, no problems there.

Pearson & Poolman will be LTIR. OEL will be a hit in future years, but not this year.

Every other meaningful contract on the books was signed by Allvin/JR.

If they aren't a good team this year, a large portion of that will be because of moves current management made.

This is a really superficial, transactional way of looking at things.

The biggest mess they inherited - even moreso than the cap mess - was the losing culture. Just a total disaster stemming from a decade of no standards, no expectations, no leadership. Almost every young player regressing. Most core young players unhappy.

And you don't fix that with status quo or 'maybe we'll just keep losing for another couple years and Petey and Quinn will still be here' or whatever.

As for the actual roster construction, the blueline they inherited was horrific. Quinn Hughes and a steaming, overpaid pile of crap otherwise. And yes, still having Myers and OEL there at $13.25 million was a *massive* inherited mess.

They're doing the right things generally for where they're at and the situation they were presented. When it comes to individual moves, you'll get no argument that they massively shot themselves in the foot with the Boeser extension.

 

[m9]

This is a really superficial, transactional way of looking at things.

The biggest mess they inherited - even moreso than the cap mess - was the losing culture. Just a total disaster stemming from a decade of no standards, no expectations, no leadership. Almost every young player regressing. Most core young players unhappy.

And you don't fix that with status quo or 'maybe we'll just keep losing for another couple years and Petey and Quinn will still be here' or whatever.

As for the actual roster construction, the blueline they inherited was horrific. Quinn Hughes and a steaming, overpaid pile of crap otherwise. And yes, still having Myers and OEL there at $13.25 million was a *massive* inherited mess.

They're doing the right things generally for where they're at and the situation they were presented. When it comes to individual moves, you'll get no argument that they massively shot themselves in the foot with the Boeser extension.

I am asking what specifically is holding them back from creating a playoff team for this season, other than their own mistakes? I am not asking why the team wasn't good for the last two seasons - I agree it wasn't a good situation initially. I'm just wondering at what point they can start taking ownership of their team? Are we not there yet?

And if they can't create a playoff team, why should they not be held accountable for it given that with the OEL buyout and the inherited contracts being a neutral they don't really have any constraints that weren't self-inflicted for this coming season?

They have turned over management, coaching staff, and a large percentage of the roster including key parts of the leadership group. They chose to sign multiple other members of the core group so I will assume that they aren't culture issues. Losing culture should have been fixed by now.

 

[credulous]

i just don't like the direction because i think they're miles from being competitive let alone a real contender. they need to be making risky moves with great payoffs if they hope to get there within the lifetime of quinn hughes contract. instead they're making very conservative deals that shuffle pieces around but don't really improve the outlook

their big signature trades were for hronek who is a twenty five year old second pairing dman and for beauvillier/raty who are a middle six forward on an expiring contract and a prospect without much promise. those guys are all basically known quantities. same with the miller contract. is miller good? yes. is miller going to get better? probably not. i would have preferred they looked for a way to turn him into multiple players that have upside. same with all the bottom of the lineup moves. are joshua, wolanin and pdg decent additions? yeah. are they enough to turn this team around? not even close

unless they can uncover another kuzmenko or two this team isn't going to be appreciably better than it was last year and it was incredibly bad last year

 

[MS]

I am asking what specifically is holding them back from creating a playoff team for this season, other than their own mistakes? I am not asking why the team wasn't good for the last two seasons - I agree it wasn't a good situation initially. I'm just wondering at what point they can start taking ownership of their team? Are we not there yet?

And if they can't create a playoff team, why should they not be held accountable for it given that with the OEL buyout and the inherited contracts being a neutral they don't really have any constraints that weren't self-inflicted?

They have turned over management, coaching staff, and a large percentage of the roster including key parts of the leadership group. They chose to sign multiple other members of the core group so I will assume that they aren't culture issues.

OEL and Myers and the blueline situation were holding them back.

Getting rid of OEL was what they needed to do to move forward, which is what I initially was saying.

And absolutely they should be making the playoffs this year. I'm not saying otherwise. What I'm saying is that the moves like the Hronek trade and OEL buyout that some here are complaining about because they don't fit their personal beliefs on the direction the team should be taking were absolutely the sort of moves they needed to be making to set this team on a track to be making the playoffs this year and moving forward from there.

And again, no argument that they've made one very bad decision which was the Boeser extension. But I think that was more of a bad evaluation that fit the plan than bad planning.

Culture doesn't change overnight. You could see Tocchet's frustration with fitness and commitment levels last year. Hopefully we see the fruits of what he was trying to push next year.

 

[arttk]

I think the prospect situation/OEL buyout are future issues for sure. But what is "messy" in terms of what they have been handed for this year specifically?

Like I said, they have 5 big inherited contracts that cost $31 million including Myers but getting those five players for $31 million is a reasonable (if not pretty good) pricetag for this season overall as the EP/Hughes/Demko numbers for this year all are good. So, the inherited contracts are a non-issue to me now that OEL is off the books for this year.

Every other non-buriable cap hit was one under the watch of new management.

What we see this year is going to be this management group's creation. Last year they neglected their primary needs to chase secondary needs. There's no excuses for this management group this year - after the OEL buyout they've been put in position to create their playoff team. If they can't do it, it's on them.

Having 13M devoted to a paring that can’t defend and is a main cause of a historically bad PK is a shit situation. Having those two guys on inflated contracts with NMC and NTC makes it almost impossible for them to move.
With that much cap commitment to a paring that suck, it’s very hard to fix the D because there is no cap for it and also no prospects in the pipe to do it.

Just inherit a historically bad PK and overpaid, unimproveable D core alone is messy. Then you add on top of that the fact there is no draft or prospects assets that is available to facilitate trades or to ride through this mess makes things even more messy.

 

[m9]

Having 13M devoted to a paring that can’t defend and is a main cause of a historically bad PK is a shit situation. Having those two guys on inflated contracts with NMC and NTC makes it almost impossible for them to move.
With that much cap commitment to a paring that suck, it’s very hard to fix the D because there is no cap for it and also no prospects in the pipe to do it.

Just inherit a historically bad PK and overpaid, unimproveable D core alone is messy. Then you add on top of that the fact there is no draft or prospects assets that is available to facilitate trades or to ride through this mess makes things even more messy.

I'm not trying to make a case for why they should have been better the last year and a half. I may have disagreed with some things they did last year but it was a messier situation and honestly it's in the past so it's almost irrelevant to discuss.

What I am saying is that there is no reason that they shouldn't be able to build a playoff team for this season and if they can't they need to be judged accordingly. OEL is off the books for this year. Using Myers inherited contract while ignoring the extra value they have from the EP/Hughes/Demko contracts doesn't really make sense to me. You would take the inherited contracts in totality (those 4 plus Garland) for $31 million every day of the week for this coming season.