Management Thread | Who needs draft picks Edition

[Bleach Clean]

I don't think you need to be a TB or Colorado, but even a team like Florida in 2019 with a similar core - Barkov (young top 5 C), Ekblad (young top 15 D), Huberdeau (top 5-7 W), Weegar (massive add as a #2-3 RHD) a f*** ton of young prospects and players, draft capital, and cap space - effectively blew out their window with the Bobrovsky signing, even with a strong GM in Zito making relatively astute moves. They reset with Tkachuk and still should be good for the next 5 years, but will they ever have an elite team? The margin for error is just so small.

Like, I don't disagree that directionally it makes sense to try to build rather than rebuild. But I think the pace of the build can't be too aggressive, especially given the metaphorical debt on the balance sheet. And as such, I would sacrifice a year or two on the front end of that 5-year window with the hopes of the more concentrated window culminating over 3-4 years where the team is actually seen as a contender.

That doesn't have to entail tanking for a shot at Bedard or whatever, but young contributing players are increasingly moving the needle on their ELCs. And between the Pettersson raise, OEL's continued contract or buyout hit, assuming a sunk cost on one of Garland/Boeser, etc., it seems like they will need those high value ELC contracts just to keep pace with the Edmonton/Vegas/LA level teams in the division, let alone to take a step past them. And in the case of an LA or Edmonton, they just have more assets capital and flexibility to continue taking steps forward. We have to red paperclip to a house, while they have war chests with 50% downpayments ready.

Now, if they move JT Miller (similar to Florida with Huberdeau) for a 22 year old, or move Demko in a three-way deal that lands Jeremy Swayman from Boston, now that changes things. You can push out that window a bit. Those are the kinds of things I would suggest.

You've argued this well. Immediately, I would have isolated the following:

1. The opposite position to the core + re-tool vs core + rebuild argument is not the TBay/COL/PIT design. That will never happen here. Those teams were actually rebuilt. It misrepresents the rebuild here as one done properly, to make it easier to refute.

2. The margin for an elite team is small, exactly. Agreed. Has this management shown you that they are high level performers?

3. Point in bold is bang on. You have to sacrifice somewhere for all the mistakes and lack of assets. Like you, I would rather the team do it in the front end of whatever plan they have in mind.

If the only requirement to making a good team is good moves by management, more teams should be good, no? Like, every fan base wants this. Can this team be turned around? Sure, anything _CAN_ happen. But is it likely to happen given their cap, pipeline and anchors? No, it's rather unlikely.

 

[racerjoe]

JR has done this twice with two different teams... so yes I think they have. If you want to look at his time with the Canucks specifically honestly I think there is two things you can nit pick at. They should have been more aggressive and signing Boeser. I think both of these could prove to end up in their favour too, even if they were bad at the time.

 

[bossram]

JR has done this twice with two different teams... so yes I think they have. If you want to look at his time with the Canucks specifically honestly I think there is two things you can nit pick at. They should have been more aggressive and signing Boeser. I think both of these could prove to end up in their favour too, even if they were bad at the time.

I think the situation he walked into in Vancouver is considerably more difficult than with Pittsburgh. Carolina it's hard to talk about because back then is essentially a different universe in terms of managing an NHL team.

JR himself basically admitted he's f***ed after actually taking 10 seconds to look at the Canucks cap sheet.

 

[supercanuck]

I guess before it was "pulling a Benning", it was called "pulling a Keenan."

Wish I had better PS skills

 

[racerjoe]

I think the situation he walked into in Vancouver is considerably more difficult than with Pittsburgh. Carolina it's hard to talk about because back then is essentially a different universe in terms of managing an NHL team.

JR himself basically admitted he's f***ed after actually taking 10 seconds to look at the Canucks cap sheet.

It’s definitely a tough situation and harder, but he has still done it.

The quote wasn’t that he was f***ed, just that he hasn’t been as good as he wanted.

 

[bossram]

It’s definitely a tough situation and harder, but he has still done it.

The quote wasn’t that he was f***ed, just that he hasn’t been as good as he wanted.

Not talking about that quote.

IIRC there was a different comment about how the cap situation is worse than he expected.

 

[racerjoe]

Not talking about that quote.

IIRC there was a different comment about how the cap situation is worse than he expected.

I must have missed it than.

 

[Gstank]

Im excited to see if Rutherford can get the Practice Facility that he was talking about when he first came to Vancouver. I think it would be a huge addition for the organizations ability to maximize the assets the they can pitch to UFAs.

I think the Fact the Abby has dedicated skills coaches who are working with the player day in and day out is a nice draw for players like Juuslen or Wolanin where they are currently AAAA guys who could develope into depth/bottom pairing NHLers with good coaching. It givess the organization good cheap depth as well a good reputation among agents for their clients who are bonfided NHLers yet but expectational AHL players or College/undrafted UFAs

 

[andora]

It’s not one, VAN has been re-tooling for some time (management change withstanding). Their pipeline is non-existent because of it. The Hronek trade is just the latest of that line.

I moved this over here to get it out of the draft thread

I know what you are saying by going back to previous management.. basically that the overall deep health of the organization long term should override a current management and retooling.. i think i said that right

But i make the break when management changed.. personally i agree with the approach they are going.. basically because i would rather use the elite talent i have and their skills to push towards something like the playoffs rather than wait put contracts and collect mid rounders.

As long as they continue to adding subtle future pieces as well while trying to supplement the active team i like it.

 

[valkynax]

Wish I had better PS skills

View attachment 678086

This man failed at failing.

And no, that's not a double negative or two wrongs make one right either.

 

[4Twenty]

I moved this over here to get it out of the draft thread

I know what you are saying by going back to previous management.. basically that the overall deep health of the organization long term should override a current management and retooling.. i think i said that right

But i make the break when management changed.. personally i agree with the approach they are going.. basically because i would rather use the elite talent i have and their skills to push towards something like the playoffs rather than wait put contracts and collect mid rounders.

As long as they continue to adding subtle future pieces as well while trying to supplement the active team i like it.

Whether you like it isn’t the point.


Dating back to acquiring JT Miller in 2019 the Canucks have been moving tons of futures for now help.

That’s the starting point. There isn’t any extreme exaggeration.

No first in 2020 (how high would it have been without JT Miller).

No first (9th overall) or second in 2021.

No 2nd in 2022.

2024 2nd already gone for cap compliance to start this season.

That was the organization prior to the Hronek deal.

People liked trading picks and going for shortcuts 6-8 years ago too.

Doubting the Canucks are attempting a retool with a significant asset handicap to me is idiocy. Not just wanting to be positive. Just straight up dumb.

Tampa in their retool drafted in the 2nd round 7 times in a 3 year period. The Canucks are retooling with basically none of that asset base.

 

[arttk]

.

Tampa in their retool drafted in the 2nd round 7 times in a 3 year period. The Canucks are retooling with basically none of that asset base.

And all those picks amounted to nothing. Tampa is successful not because they amass a ton of picks or whatever. They are successful because they created a great development program and just slow developed kids they drafted.

They didn’t amass their depth by doing like some prolong tank over 6-7 years. They got Stamkos and Hedman and then had like one more year of tank and then they were done. 90% of the talent you see on their team were added post tank via a slow build process.

 

[andora]

Whether you like it isn’t the point.


Dating back to acquiring JT Miller in 2019 the Canucks have been moving tons of futures for now help.

That’s the starting point. There isn’t any extreme exaggeration.

No first in 2020 (how high would it have been without JT Miller).

No first (9th overall) or second in 2021.

No 2nd in 2022.

2024 2nd already gone for cap compliance to start this season.

That was the organization prior to the Hronek deal.

People liked trading picks and going for shortcuts 6-8 years ago too.

Doubting the Canucks are attempting a retool with a significant asset handicap to me is idiocy. Not just wanting to be positive. Just straight up dumb.

Tampa in their retool drafted in the 2nd round 7 times in a 3 year period. The Canucks are retooling with basically none of that asset base.

Who is doubting they are starting with an asset handicap?.. not i.. i dont think i said that..

I mean ffs.. they chose the direction and they have what they have to work with. As a whole i dont mind what they have done at all minus the boeser deal. My opinion of course.. and i prefer it now with the players we have versus 5 years of waiting

 

[Peen]

i don’t want to imagine the world where the isles miss and then there’s the potential for that unprotected first the following season being the piece that goes the other way

but rn with that pick being around 18th, it’s easier to stomach. obviously need to see where the remainder of the offseason goes now…

 

[4Twenty]

And all those picks amounted to nothing. Tampa is successful not because they amass a ton of picks or whatever. They are successful because they created a great development program and just slow developed kids they drafted.

They didn’t amass their depth by doing like some prolong tank over 6-7 years. They got Stamkos and Hedman and then had like one more year of tank and then they were done. 90% of the talent you see on their team were added post tank via a slow build process.

You almost got it.

 

[arttk]

You almost got it.

Well it seems like you still don’t get it

 

[4Twenty]

Well it seems like you still don’t get it

More swings. More moveable assets.

How could they seamlessly replace former core like Tyler Johnson, Yanni Gourde etc

The picks not turning out is not the point. Brayden Point was their 4th swing in 2014. Same with Cirelli the next year.

Howden and Hajek the next year turned into JT Miller and Ryan Mcdonagh.

You need a stable of assets to turn a good core into a contender.


But everything is awesome in Vancouver. The less picks you have. The better you draft.

It’s also funny that bottoming out to draft 10th in 2012 and 3rd overall in 2013 is ignored. It’s just part of some slow build.

 

[andora]

More swings. More moveable assets.

How could they seamlessly replace former core like Tyler Johnson, Yanni Gourde etc

by trading more of their own draft picks

The picks not turning out is not the point. Brayden Point was their 4th swing in 2014. Same with Cirelli the next year.

Howden and Hajek the next year turned into JT Miller and Ryan Mcdonagh.

You need a stable of assets to turn a good core into a contender.

so basically they just used their former first round drafted players, plus additional draft picks to bring in players that are age appropriate to their team

But everything is awesome in Vancouver. The less picks you have. The better you draft.

It’s also funny that bottoming out to draft 10th in 2012 and 3rd overall in 2013 is ignored. It’s just part of some slow build.

the 3rd overall was the drouin one right? which they made a good trade young guy for young guy - at the time i remember the reaction was kinda split..

i think the emphasis when looking at Tampa Bay isn't a collection of assets (or how many times they picked etc..) - is that they were and are a very aggressive team that knows how to USE draft picks in deals (including a ton of picks for picks draft day stuff from what i remember) - has any team traded or put in play more first rounders than tampa in the past decade?

tampa is used sooo often, and rightfully so because they won back to back and still went for a 3rd, and will be going for a 4th this year, but i don't i ever see this stuff brought up about them and how effectively they use their draft picks in trade - where it is misrepresented as they burned and turned a lot of players for picks and built the right way

i think they probably got more of their surplus draft picks from simply trading down versus actually moving players out - i didn't look that up but if it's wrong, i'm sure it is close. The WAY tampa has approached what they have done - there is NO reason this team cannot do the same once the problem contracts are dealt with (i can hear it now, problem contracts there goes more assets to get rid of and now you have less than nothing to work with... EMPTY EMPTY !!!) -

i don't see why an effective now and future based philosophy can't be done.

 

[credulous]

tampa built their core (stamkos, kucherov, point, cirelli, hedman, sergachev, cernak, vasilevskiy) through drafting and development. they've mostly supplemented that core with other players they've drafted and developed (like johnson, gourde, killorn, ross, perbix and palat). the players they've bought in trades have almost always been depth additions like coleman, goodrow, hagel and jeannot who can provide production on cheap contracts. the only real exceptions are sergachev (who they traded for at 19), cernak (who was a throw in prospect in a salary dump transaction and who was mostly developed in the tampa system), jt miller (who didn't work out in tampa) and mcdonagh who is really the only core piece tampa has ever acquired in trade at close to their "true" value

there isn't a single team in the nhl that approaches team construction more differently than the vancouver canucks than the tampa bay lightning. trading picks for surplus value like hagel or goodrow when you already have an elite core is not even close to using picks to try to assemble that elite core in the first place

 

[carrotshirt]

Looks like Livingstone (who many hoped would sign here) has signed in Nashville.

 

[Vector]

 

[andora]

Haters gonna hate

 

[arttk]

More swings. More moveable assets.

How could they seamlessly replace former core like Tyler Johnson, Yanni Gourde etc

The picks not turning out is not the point. Brayden Point was their 4th swing in 2014. Same with Cirelli the next year.

Howden and Hajek the next year turned into JT Miller and Ryan Mcdonagh.

You need a stable of assets to turn a good core into a contender.


But everything is awesome in Vancouver. The less picks you have. The better you draft.

It’s also funny that bottoming out to draft 10th in 2012 and 3rd overall in 2013 is ignored. It’s just part of some slow build.

You don’t get it do you, Tampa bay didn’t draft better because they drafted more or had “more swings”. Just look at their draft list, their success rate didn’t improve in drafts when they had more picks. hell if anything they had their most successful draft year when they only had 6 picks in 2011 and they didn’t even have a 3rd and 4th that year.

You guys use Tampa as an example of successful rebuilds when the fact is the way Tampa built their team is 100% misrepresented. They did a slow ass BUILD that took like 8 years. They didn’t just say oh f*** it, we don’t have enough with Stamkos and Hedman and tanked more to get more depth.

Nobody is arguing that we should trade away all our picks. If anything some of us arguing we should keep as many picks and get more and look at all avenues to add a couple more good players every season and build upon the core

 

[4Twenty]

by trading more of their own draft picks

so basically they just used their former first round drafted players, plus additional draft picks to bring in players that are age appropriate to their team

the 3rd overall was the drouin one right? which they made a good trade young guy for young guy - at the time i remember the reaction was kinda split..

i think the emphasis when looking at Tampa Bay isn't a collection of assets (or how many times they picked etc..) - is that they were and are a very aggressive team that knows how to USE draft picks in deals (including a ton of picks for picks draft day stuff from what i remember) - has any team traded or put in play more first rounders than tampa in the past decade?

tampa is used sooo often, and rightfully so because they won back to back and still went for a 3rd, and will be going for a 4th this year, but i don't i ever see this stuff brought up about them and how effectively they use their draft picks in trade - where it is misrepresented as they burned and turned a lot of players for picks and built the right way

i think they probably got more of their surplus draft picks from simply trading down versus actually moving players out - i didn't look that up but if it's wrong, i'm sure it is close. The WAY tampa has approached what they have done - there is NO reason this team cannot do the same once the problem contracts are dealt with (i can hear it now, problem contracts there goes more assets to get rid of and now you have less than nothing to work with... EMPTY EMPTY !!!) -

i don't see why an effective now and future based philosophy can't be done.

Thank you for this reply. I appreciate the effort.

With regards to point one. It’s not just picks. It’s also drafted prospects.

They traded a lot of things. Because they accrued a lot of things.


Imagine if while they’re were plummeting to the bottom of the standings to pick 3rd that they traded futures for now help….no Sergachev.

Tampa is used often because they’re the best run organization in the sport and I was calling them such years before winning cups. They won the cups because they didn’t start selling the future until they had the horses. There’s a reason I mention the level of futures they acquired from 14-16. And it’s impossible to ignore how it impacted the more recent seasons.

the “I think probably…” statement takes seems lazy and the rest of your statement is just wishful thinking.

 

[4Twenty]

You don’t get it do you, Tampa bay didn’t draft better because they drafted more or had “more swings”. Just look at their draft list, their success rate didn’t improve in drafts when they had more picks. hell if anything they had their most successful draft year when they only had 6 picks in 2011 and they didn’t even have a 3rd and 4th that year.

You guys use Tampa as an example of successful rebuilds when the fact is the way Tampa built their team is 100% misrepresented. They did a slow ass BUILD that took like 8 years. They didn’t just say oh f*** it, we don’t have enough with Stamkos and Hedman and tanked more to get more depth.

Nobody is arguing that we should trade away all our picks. If anything some of us arguing we should keep as many picks and get more and look at all avenues to add a couple more good players every season and build upon the core

I disagree they did a slow build.
Stamkos/Hedman 2008 and 2009 draft.

2011 conference finals with old guard (St Louis and Lecavalier).

Has a couple barren years. 2013 3rd overall pick.

Started to target futures.

Lots of picks acquired.

Cup finals in 2015. Been a cup contender ever since.