Management Thread | The Song Remains the Same Edition

[krutovsdonut]

What is remarkable is that there are still clusters of fans who think Benning did a great job. Doesn’t matter what the results for almost a decade indicate, their opinion is set in stone.

i doubt anyone thinks benning did a great job, but i think many watching this current 100% benning-free f***ery unfold feel as strongly as ever that benning did not do as bad a job as others like you think. i have said for years that you can judge benning for agreeing to be an errand boy, but you can't judge how well he did that job without knowing the errands his idiot boss gave him.

benning's problem for me remains that he was willing to be a consigliore and then that he was stuck being consigliore for sonny and not michael and then nobody whacked sonny. unfortunately there is no michael in that family. just a sonny and some fredos.

but i digress. we can now see very clearly that aqualini finds ways to compromise the autonomy of everyone he hires. even the great gillis could not make trades or change direction when aquaman disagreed and then was forced to hire a coach he didn't choose or want, and even the great linden could not use his supreme canuck moral authority and reputation to take control of the team's destiny as poho. in fact, linden famously got fired for trying to do the job of a poho and set team direction.

more recently, right after he was hired with full autonomy jr apparently found himself trapped in an absolute shit show with aquaman controlling hockey ops decisions by pretending he cared about a coach's salary to force a personnel decision on jr that he did not want to make.

with all that context, it is kind of understandable now that benning could not trade hamhuis because his idiot boss interfered, and almost certain that most or all of the significant decisions this team has made during that era were aquaman's to make and benning's to implement. without doubt aquaman may have approved benning's ideas, but the direction was set by aquaman and the details were reviewed an approved by aquaman.

the difference may be that jr has perhaps served notice he will just throw aquaman under the bus every time he f***s with the team going forward, even if that means throwing a player or coach with him. i say perhaps, because i am still not sure jr actually chose tochett as opposed to being steered there by the owner from among the limited mid-season candidates. so jr may not have gotten his full way beyond ditching bb.

and even if he did get his way, that doesn't mean jr was more competent than benning as a poho/gm, just more competent at managing an insanely interfering boss so he can do what needs to be done as a poho/gm, a skill most gm/pohos do not need to master to anything like the degree a canuck gm/poho must do.

so as to benning, i think he absolutely missed the retool by screwing up the kesler trade, screwed it up a second time with the sutter trade, and made some crazy anticipatory extensions and signings that over time eroded the team's capital, but then he did make some corrections and in 19-20 had a playoff team that got screwed by covid. to assess what he did in his last years i'd need to know what he was dealing with, and especially who decided both marky and tanev had to go and who decided to add oel.

i do also think benning should have been gone after he missed the retool. i think it is a bad idea to keep a gm in position after their big bets have missed regardless of whether it is their fault. those misses weigh the gm's rep down in a way that influences future decisions.

anyway, fingers crossed that jr won a full victory here and aquaman has taken a huge hit. that would be more important to the team's future than tochett's suitability as a coach.

 

[Frankie Blueberries]

i doubt anyone thinks benning did a great job, but i think many watching this current 100% benning-free f***ery unfold feel as strongly as ever that benning did not do as bad a job as others like you think. i have said for years that you can judge benning for agreeing to be an errand boy, but you can't judge how well he did that job without knowing the errands his idiot boss gave him.

There are definitely fans who think he did a great job. If you’ve browsed other online communities like Reddit, CanucksCorner, CDC, etc., you would know this.

I don’t buy the argument that Benning was just following orders and, integrity issues aside, the blame should rest on Aquilini. I think Aquilini definitely made him retool instead of rebuild and was largely responsible for the age gap moves. However, I refuse to believe that Benning had no freedom or choice and had to target players like Vey, Baertschi, Gudbranson, Sbisa, Pouliot, etc. Throughout his entire time as GM, his pro scouting was atrocious (both trades and UFAs).

 

[PuckMunchkin]

I have zero issues with this.



Yup.

Rutherford has been around a long time without weird shit like this happening. Guy is a professional.

The weird shit that’s happening appears to be them trying to assert autonomy and separate hockey ops from ownership. Which I think is what everybody wants.

This whole season is so incredibly similar to the 1997-98 Canuck season it’s beyond belief. That year, Burke was hired. Keenan/Messier insanity was over! Except it wasn’t because Burke was stuck with Keenan by ownership. And the whole season was an absolute circus, and the team actually got worse than the year before. All kinds of bizarre shit happened as Burke tried to wrestle autonomy from a lot of stupid people both above and below him. And at the end of the first year he looked like a disaster and was very unpopular. Then things improved. Hopefully the same thing happens here.

With no tanking or acquiring high draft picks?

 

[canuckster19]

The order of operations that these clowns do tasks is so embarrassing.

Reminds me of those memes,

3X3+3/3

It's gotta be four right?!

80% of people can't answer this question

 

[MS]

With no tanking or acquiring high draft picks?

We already did a tank and acquired high draft picks.

And we're likely getting another top-10 pick this year.

Also the high picks in '98 and '99 didn't move the needle during the WCE years.

 

[Nucker101]

We already did a tank and acquired high draft picks.

And we're likely getting another top-10 pick this year.

How many teams come out of a tank era with nothing in their pipeline at defense or center and end up turning their teams around?

 

[PuckMunchkin]

We already did a tank and acquired high draft picks.

And we're likely getting another top-10 pick this year.

Top 10 pick wont help us in our contention window, as in next year and the year after that.

I think you were one of the loudest voices arguing how what Benning did was not a rebuild because it is not enough to passively suck and use most of the picks you are handed by the league, you need to make those years of suck count.

Its not enough to have a core of 2 players.

 

[MS]

How many teams come out of a tank era with nothing in their pipeline at defense or center and end up turning their teams around?

Uh, what?

We came out of our tank era with Pettersson/Horvat/Miller at C and Hughes on D.

 

[theguardianII]

The trade window is opening up.

Lots of scouts and GMs at the game.

The players playing like they are auditioning.

Kuzmenko increased his contract value a ton.

How to tank without tanking, cap out. A bad contract that can be traded before July 1.

Players for immediate trades would be Schenn and Kuzmenko, with a few bottom 6 guys available too.

With 50% retention, maybe OEL but that is a 3 year cap hit but also a 3 year cap saving with maybe a prospect or pick coming back. Better than a buyout that cost more and lasts, 8 years, much longer. A buyout would also allow OEL to sign with Calgary, Seattle, Calgary at a cap savings contract financed by the Canuck buyout.

A retention of 15% for Boeser for 2 more years or even a 12.5% retention, 1 million, for MIller for seven years, Rutherford already stated management is thinking that Miller's contract will be absorbed with cap increases so this is easy.

Fans are not the only people that think this stuff up, fans will hit on what the front office thinks more often than not.

But fans think of winning, management thinks of long term employment and the most important for them is fans in the seats. If winning is needed then they will, but in Canada the hope of winning is enough for too many fans.

But were all those GMs here and not knocking on one of the four GMs doors or making a phone call?

 

[PuckMunchkin]

Uh, what?

We came out of our tank era with Pettersson/Horvat/Miller at C and Hughes on D.

I would really be reluctant counting Horvat (about to be shipped off) and Miller (wrong side of 30) as parts of our core.

Having a +33 year old enigmatic offense only winger, who isn't particularly fast, on a 8mil contract for another 4 years does not sound enticing to me.

 

[MS]

I would really be reluctant counting Horvat (about to be shipped off) and Miller (wrong side of 30) as parts of our core.

Having a +33 year old enigmatic offense only winger, who isn't particularly fast, on a 8mil contract for another 4 years does not sound enticing to me.

The question was what we had coming out of our tank period. And again, I would be signing Horvat.

Here's a fun exercise : take a look at Detroit right now.

They've just done the absolute model tank/rebuild over the last 7 years. 6 top-10 picks! Pick surpluses! Leveraged cap space for assets! Literally did absolutely everything the pro-tank crowd here is wanking over.

And guess what? After that model rebuild, they have basically zero high-end offensive talent. Nothing at C except a pending UFA, same as Horvat. Journeymen in net. One really good defender and one more really good prospect.

The grass is always greener.

 

[Canucker]

Top 10 pick wont help us in our contention window, as in next year and the year after that.

I think you were one of the loudest voices arguing how what Benning did was not a rebuild because it is not enough to passively suck and use most of the picks, you need to make those years of suck count.

Its not enough to have a core of 2 players.

What is our "core"? I think that needs to be established...Obviously Petey and Quinn are your main core, unless they decide to (and find a way to) get rid of Miller he's going to have to be considered a member of the core group, Demko is likely a part of the core, if they re-sign Kuzmenko to a deal with some term and protection he'll be part of the core. Right there you've got a core of 5 players, and that doesn't include the possibility of Podkolzin/Hoglander, and hopefully any return for Horvat...I think a "core" group can be put together pretty quickly, whether or not its a good core will be up for debate...I think if we draft inside the top 10 we can maybe add that player into the core in 2-3 years...I think the dead cap weight (OEL, Boeser and Myers primarily) and the barren pipeline (especially at D) are the only things really holding us back from at least being an interesting team to follow.

I do agree very much that if you are going to suck....suck hard. Thats why I really wished we would have sucked hard during the "bubble" season...if you're going to be shitty, do it while your building is empty, its not like you were going to lose a lot of revenue due to people staying home. lol

 

[PuckMunchkin]

The question was what we had coming out of our tank period. And again, I would be signing Horvat.

Here's a fun exercise : take a look at Detroit right now.

They've just done the absolute model tank/rebuild over the last 7 years. 6 top-10 picks! Pick surpluses! Leveraged cap space for assets! Literally did absolutely everything the pro-tank crowd here is wanking over.

And guess what? After that model rebuild, they have basically zero high-end offensive talent. Nothing at C except a pending UFA, same as Horvat. Journeymen in net. One really good defender and one more really good prospect.

The grass is always greener.

I think he said "in the pipeline" as in prospects that you can reasonably expected inject in to your line-up, guessing on ELCs.

 

[Nucker101]

Uh, what?

We came out of our tank era with Pettersson/Horvat/Miller at C and Hughes on D.

I don't think Miller is a center. Horvat is getting traded(I know you think this is a dumb move by the team, but it's reality so we have to assume it's going to happen because all signs point to this being the case).

EP and Hughes will be all that's left to show from down the middle including current prospects, that's why the Canucks situation is unique and calls for a rebuild and not some magical re-tool.

And as PM said above, I meant contributing ELC's or cost controlled 2nd contract RFA's that play at premium positions.

 

[Nucker101]

I'll repeat what I said in the CHI GDT:

This team missed their window to contend while having players on great contracts. EP/Miller/Hughes/Horvat/Kuz were all great value at various points with overlap. Hughes got paid, Miller got paid, OEL brought in as a cap anchor while costing the team a cost controlled rookie. Horvat is going to get paid/traded. EP is going to get paid. Kuz is going to get paid. Demko is nice value still but going to get paid further down the line.

This core isn’t Tampa or Colorado where you can surround them with cheap role players and contend, and even those teams won cups with some core players on great value contracts.

The prospect pool is one of the worst in the league, this team just won't have many top 9F/top 4D contracts that are providing great surplus value over the next few years outside of 3rd/4th line tweeners and #4/#5 dmen tweeners.

Looking at it as black and white as “we have a core” is lazy analysis.

 

[credulous]

Here's a fun exercise : take a look at Detroit right now.

okay? they don't have a top center but they have kasper and niederbach on the way and they'll probably either keep larkin or sign horvat. they also have probably the best prospect pool in the entire league. shai buium and carter mazur would be vancouver's best prospects and they're probably not even in detroit's top 10

 

[Canucker]

The question was what we had coming out of our tank period. And again, I would be signing Horvat.

Here's a fun exercise : take a look at Detroit right now.

They've just done the absolute model tank/rebuild over the last 7 years. 6 top-10 picks! Pick surpluses! Leveraged cap space for assets! Literally did absolutely everything the pro-tank crowd here is wanking over.

And guess what? After that model rebuild, they have basically zero high-end offensive talent. Nothing at C except a pending UFA, same as Horvat. Journeymen in net. One really good defender and one more really good prospect.

The grass is always greener.

Yeah, I would think some of the luster has come off of Yzerman as a GM now...he's made some good moves, but he's also made some questionable ones and his team really hasn't taken any significant leaps forward...he's a good GM, but he's not some management messiah like a lot of people have made him out.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

What is our "core"? I think that needs to be established...Obviously Petey and Quinn are your main core, unless they decide to (and find a way to) get rid of Miller he's going to have to be considered a member of the core group, Demko is likely a part of the core, if they re-sign Kuzmenko to a deal with some term and protection he'll be part of the core. Right there you've got a core of 5 players, and that doesn't include the possibility of Podkolzin/Hoglander, and hopefully any return for Horvat...I think a "core" group can be put together pretty quickly, whether or not its a good core will be up for debate...I think if we draft inside the top 10 we can maybe add that player into the core in 2-3 years...I think the dead cap weight (OEL, Boeser and Myers primarily) and the barren pipeline (especially at D) are the only things really holding us back from at least being an interesting team to follow.

I do agree very much that if you are going to suck....suck hard. Thats why I really wished we would have sucked hard during the "bubble" season...if you're going to be shitty, do it while your building is empty, its not like you were going to lose a lot of revenue due to people staying home. lol

That is a good question.

Don't think it is set in stone.

I think they are the players that are going to form the backbone of your team that you will contend for the cup with.

It has to be a group that wants to compete together.

On my discounting of Demko from this list... I feel like in today's NHL goalies are hard to see as parts of the core. Only Vasilevsky bucks this trend. He seems to be good enough to compete for the cup year after year after year. Everyone else fluctuates... At least Carolina,Colorado and Toronto seem to have moved to a disposable goalie strategy. I think that is probably the right way.

The management obviously counts Miller as part of the core. If they didn't they would not have chosen him over Horvat.

The NHL is a complicated efficiency contest. Your cap structure needs to be under control. Tampa is the poster boy example of this. Colorado lucked in to this with MacKinnon's previous insanely team friendly extension.

I don't think there is any one correct answer to your question.

To me the biggest issue with where we are at is that only Quinn Hughes of our core comes with cost certainty (well I guess Miller, but that certainty is that he is certainly going to be overpaid starting next year)

Yeah, I would think some of the luster has come off of Yzerman as a GM now...he's made some good moves, but he's also made some questionable ones and his team really hasn't taken any significant leaps forward...he's a good GM, but he's not some management messiah like a lot of people have made him out.

Its the process that matters.

He has the right process. It does not guarantee results every time. Just makes them more likely.

 

[credulous]

The NHL is a complicated efficiency contest. Your cap structure needs to be under control. Tampa is the poster boy example of this. Colorado lucked in to this with MacKinnon's previous insanely team friendly extension.

this is why i'm so skeptical of vancouver's plans to compete with this core. st louis and colorado won with significant parts of their core on efficient contracts and fell off when they had to pay those players 'post championship' contracts. tampa bought themselves a few extra years of contention with team friendly bridge contracts and by aggressively pursuing and paying for efficient players like goodrow, coleman and hagel but this is probably their last year their cap structure will remain intact. next year they have to pay cirelli, cernak and sergachev and they'll be in tough to replace the depth they'll lose as a result (killorn, ross and cole)

vancouver are already paying 'post championship' style contracts to players like miller, hughes, oel and -- soon -- pettersson. and trying to add in free agency it's very hard to find efficient deals. tampa got ridiculed for giving up two firsts for hagel but that's the kind of commitment winning teams are willing to make to get efficient deals. vancouver can't really play in that market with their lack of depth

 

[PuckMunchkin]

this is why i'm so skeptical of vancouver's plans to compete with this core. st louis and colorado won with significant parts of their core on efficient contracts and fell off when they had to pay those players 'post championship' contracts. tampa bought themselves a few extra years of contention with team friendly bridge contracts and by aggressively pursuing and paying for efficient players like goodrow, coleman and hagel but this is probably their last year their cap structure will remain intact. next year they have to pay cirelli, cernak and sergachev and they'll be in tough to replace the depth they'll lose as a result (killorn, ross and cole)

vancouver are already paying 'post championship' style contracts to players like miller, hughes, oel and -- soon -- pettersson. and trying to add in free agency it's very hard to find efficient deals. tampa got ridiculed for giving up two firsts for hagel but that's the kind of commitment winning teams are willing to make to get efficient deals. vancouver can't really play in that market with their lack of depth

Yep.

Like I keep saying...

All the post contention run problems without actually contending.

 

[Josepho]

Yeah, I would think some of the luster has come off of Yzerman as a GM now...he's made some good moves, but he's also made some questionable ones and his team really hasn't taken any significant leaps forward...he's a good GM, but he's not some management messiah like a lot of people have made him out.

I don't know about that but they (along with LA) are really good examples of how prospect depth is extremely overrated and rebuilds largely hinge on getting the star players.

Toronto did an extremely good job selling off their assets but would probably be in a dramatically different position if they didn't win that 2016 lottery.

 

[Canucker]

That is a good question.

Don't think it is set in stone.

I think they are the players that are going to form the backbone of your team that you will contend for the cup with.

It has to be a group that wants to compete together.

On my discounting of Demko from this list... I feel like in today's NHL goalies are hard to see as parts of the core. Only Vasilevsky bucks this trend. He seems to be good enough to compete for the cup year after year after year. Everyone else fluctuates... At least Carolina,Colorado and Toronto seem to have moved to a disposable goalie strategy. I think that is probably the right way.

The management obviously counts Miller as part of the core. If they didn't they would not have chosen him over Horvat.

The NHL is a complicated efficiency contest. Your cap structure needs to be under control. Tampa is the poster boy example of this. Colorado lucked in to this with MacKinnon's previous insanely team friendly extension.

I don't think there is any one correct answer to your question.

To me the biggest issue with where we are at is that only Quinn Hughes of our core comes with cost certainty (well I guess Miller, but that certainty is that he is certainly going to be overpaid starting next year)


Its the process that matters.

He has the right process. It does not guarantee results every time. Just makes them more likely.

I agree...I think its pretty fluid...2 years ago I don't think many, if anyone, really imagined that Boeser wouldn't be a part of the core, but here we are.


I don't disagree about Yzerman's process, he's a smart guy, overall he does well but it doesn't mean he's infallible and I think it serves as a good message that even if JR and PA run a reasonably successful operation it's not going to be easy to repair the damage done from a VERY poor manager....to liken it to a baseball analogy...

Jim Benning's Batting Average - .198
League Average - .243
Steve Yzerman - .302

Even if JR/PA bat .280 (I'd say they're only batting .225 right now), they're still going to miss a lot over the course of their tenure, just like everyone else...just hopefully not nearly as much as Jim Benning....just try to be better than average, and at this point it's almost seeming like a tall ask. lol

 

[credulous]

florida is a good object lesson in how things are going wrong for the canucks and how hard it will be to pull out of it

florida did everything right and found cheap, efficient players to compliment their core and used future assets to go out and get more core players but they missed their contention window and now they are in a situation where they can't afford to retain those efficient players and lack the assets to replace them. they're going to have to get lucky again to find players they can both afford and that improve the quality of the team

 

[PuckMunchkin]

I agree...I think its pretty fluid...2 years ago I don't think many, if anyone, really imagined that Boeser wouldn't be a part of the core, but here we are.


I don't disagree about Yzerman's process, he's a smart guy, overall he does well but it doesn't mean he's infallible and I think it serves as a good message that even if JR and PA run a reasonably successful operation it's not going to be easy to repair the damage done from a VERY poor manager....to liken it to a baseball analogy...

Jim Benning's Batting Average - .198
League Average - .243
Steve Yzerman - .302

Even if JR/PA bat .280 (I'd say they're only batting .225 right now), they're still going to miss a lot over the course of their tenure, just like everyone else...just hopefully not nearly as much as Jim Benning....just try to be better than average, and at this point it's almost seeming like a tall ask. lol

The problem is they way I see it, JR&PA seem to think they are playing golf when they are actually in a baseball game...

To me they don't seem to grasp how far from normal the situation this team is in, actually is.

Lets hope I'm totally wrong.

 

[AwesomeInTheory]

And yet many of the Canucks so called faithful will never take a good long hard look in the mirror, this team doesn't owe us a thing and some yet some of us act like petulant entitled brats, you'd rather run your mouth and try and get people fired than turning the TV off for a bit.

Well to that I say, well done, either sit in the mess you made or shut the f--- up for once.

Go back to CDC.