Management Thread | The Song Remains the Same Edition

[PuckMunchkin]

And yet many of the Canucks so called faithful will never take a good long hard look in the mirror, this team doesn't owe us a thing and some yet some of us act like petulant entitled brats, you'd rather run your mouth and try and get people fired than turning the TV off for a bit.

Well to that I say, well done, either sit in the mess you made or shut the f--- up for once.

What is going on here today. Oh my.

 

[Bgav]

The question was what we had coming out of our tank period. And again, I would be signing Horvat.

Here's a fun exercise : take a look at Detroit right now.

They've just done the absolute model tank/rebuild over the last 7 years. 6 top-10 picks! Pick surpluses! Leveraged cap space for assets! Literally did absolutely everything the pro-tank crowd here is wanking over.

And guess what? After that model rebuild, they have basically zero high-end offensive talent. Nothing at C except a pending UFA, same as Horvat. Journeymen in net. One really good defender and one more really good prospect.

The grass is always greener.

Who do you think turns into a contender first? Detroit is stacked with prospects

 

[krutovsdonut]

There are definitely fans who think he did a great job. If you’ve browsed other online communities like Reddit, CanucksCorner, CDC, etc., you would know this.

I don’t buy the argument that Benning was just following orders and, integrity issues aside, the blame should rest on Aquilini. I think Aquilini definitely made him retool instead of rebuild and was largely responsible for the age gap moves. However, I refuse to believe that Benning had no freedom or choice and had to target players like Vey, Baertschi, Gudbranson, Sbisa, Pouliot, etc. Throughout his entire time as GM, his pro scouting was atrocious (both trades and UFAs).

i somewhat agree but the pro scouting of this team was atrocious before benning and his most notorious targets, gudbranson and sutter, were both targeted previously by gillis. that causes me to wonder if he blew the kesler trade and aftermath with a little help, and also that he maybe got a little better as time went on. i quite like his last moves other than the collosal gamble on oel.

anyway, we've been having these debates for years and you've previously attacked and ridiculed me many times for my position that aquaman is the real problem and people's energy was misdirected at benning.

surely now, after what just happened, you can accept there is something to what i have been saying? after all, it's even in your usename these days.

 

[vancityluongo]

The question was what we had coming out of our tank period. And again, I would be signing Horvat.

Here's a fun exercise : take a look at Detroit right now.

They've just done the absolute model tank/rebuild over the last 7 years. 6 top-10 picks! Pick surpluses! Leveraged cap space for assets! Literally did absolutely everything the pro-tank crowd here is wanking over.

And guess what? After that model rebuild, they have basically zero high-end offensive talent. Nothing at C except a pending UFA, same as Horvat. Journeymen in net. One really good defender and one more really good prospect.

The grass is always greener.

Detroit is a great example of how rebuilding doesn't always work out quickly... but they just this season tried to take a step forward, fell back a step and a half, and will enter this draft with three top-40 picks to continue building.

The Canucks are what happens if Detroit now blows all of their assets and tries to go all-in for the next three years, fail, and have two or three more developed assets to show for it (Raymond, Seider, Cossa all progress to Pettersson, Hughes, Demko level players) but nothing in the pipeline. That alone isn't enough to make a good team - but unlike us, Detroit has actual depth in the system and the flexibility to continue to add assets. We cashed in every chip in 2020 and 2021.

One defenseman is also not very charitable - the Chairot error was absolutely unforced, but Seider came into this year looking like one of the better prospects of the decade, and is still on track to be an all-situations #1, Hronek is better than any non-Hughes defenseman we have and Jake Walman is quietly looking like a pretty good find as well. Edvinsson as a bluechip coming up, and then another half dozen long shot guys which should pan out to one or two NHLers.

I'd trade our franchise for theirs in a second. Would you not?

 

[theguardianII]

Uh, what?

We came out of our tank era with Pettersson/Horvat/Miller at C and Hughes on D.

No they didn't, Horvat was a shrewd trade and Miller a very expensive one that is turning sour within a year or two if not not already.

If you are looking those players ages, Miller 30, Horvat 28, Petey 25 and Hughes 24 only two have a window longer than 3/4 years.

The experience in Vancouver is that draft picks CAN'T contribute sooner than 4 or 5 years except for Horvat, Boeser, Pettersson, Hughes or traded picks McCann and Guenther. Imagine if they had made different choices over Virtanen or Juloevi, say Larkin and Tkachuk who also stepped right in. Potato picks.

I fear this management group will go "fan favourite" over hockey sense and winning. This whole year has been an excuse to over pay a 29 year old player "because fans wanted that" I think they don't do anything with Horvat ramping up expectations or fear of his leaving. Too much of "this is the last best offer" all season setting up "we did it for the fans" They know fans here will not boo Horvat but they will have to pay him to not want a cup. I think if Horvat signs here that will take something away from his game and they will lose Pettersson and Hughes.

Cap space is an idiotic excuse. So is "we want a players back, we don't want picks or prospects, we want failed players" Cap space they have, they are using it already, Horvat, Miller with 50% retention, that gives the Canucks over 5 million in cap space and gives other teams 5 million in cap space. Draft picks and prospects are or could be trade assets or future stars, 2 years unless they draft a college prodigy or that Russian kid BUT quite often when those players become available they can step right into the lineup and have an effect.

Rutherford has already said they are gong to do something unpopular and fans will accept, but he has also sorted out fans to those in agreement with their plan and all the idiots of which many and most on forums are the idiots. Any fan not agreeing is an idiot, naïve, stupid, uninformed. We already had the Benning "you don't know what I do" from Rutherford last presser and Allvin paraphrasing he isn't going to listen to fans.

Can this group be turned around?

Sure I think so but it will require smart bold trades, they need TWO top young defencemen, I still think there is a deal on the table with NYI, maybe Romanov or Dobson plus for Miller. NYI defence isn't the issue, scoring is.

Horvat fits everywhere but Columbus may have the best if Jiricek, Sillinger/Johnson are coming back. Again they are in a win now, Laine is 25 soon, Gaudreau 29, most of their top players are in that 3 year age range. They were truly decimated with injuries. IF HORVAT is going to be traded it has to be before the TDL to get max value. Jiricek is a player that could step right in especially if Schenn is a trade then resign guy.

Trading Schenn would get back a A prospect or top draft pick that could be used as an asset to move say OEL, but he would be an UFA so it might cost the Nux a few million per year.

Trading Boeser or Garland with small retention

Of course Kuzmenko is another easy trade, IMO the return is at least a 1rst and he has 31 fans that are GMs

The team can already score goals but teams are built from the back out

Forwards even without Horvat, Kuzmenko although it is sounding like Kuz wants a short term contract which is not good for the Canucks but doable or Miller is a check.

Goaltending if Demko is okay and Deila or Martin as back up Check

Defence needs two or three upgrades minimum and bigger stronger guys. SO a huge not checked yet.

Now these small changes will not make them a cup contender, only top draft picks or draft surprises will do that but it would make them playoff contenders/pretenders which is better than what has been offered up as a team for the last 7/9 years.

 

[Peen]

The only time the Canucks have tanked is a small period in 2017 when they dealt Hansen and Burrows.

That is it.

Being bad unintentionally because of bad process is not the same as intentionally tanking. That isn’t even some dumb semantics debate - it is entirely different.

 

[Breakers]

They better hurry the hell up and make this final contract offer.

My god,
If teams want to get a head start on offers but are being rebuffed because these clowns are dragging their feet.

 

[rypper]

The only time the Canucks have tanked is a small period in 2017 when they dealt Hansen and Burrows.

That is it.

Being bad unintentionally because of bad process is not the same as intentionally tanking. That isn’t even some dumb semantics debate - it is entirely different.

Mike Gillis secret tanked when he flipped Luongo and Schneider for futures in separate deals.

 

[theguardianII]

i somewhat agree but the pro scouting of this team was atrocious before benning and his most notorious targets, gudbranson and sutter, were both targeted previously by gillis. that causes me to wonder if he blew the kesler trade and aftermath with a little help, and also that he maybe got a little better as time went on. i quite like his last moves other than the collosal gamble on oel.

About Gillis's pro scouting

A Oberg and 3rd rnd, 83rd or so pick for Higgins? A solid two way forward that moved up and own the top 9 but could also play on the 4th line.

Lapierre for Perrault and another 80 something

Erhoff for White and Rahmi

Hamhuis and Garrison the to top UFAs those years both come to Vancouver at discounts

Alberts for a 85th pick

Too many to count even the Ballard trade was not as bad, Ballard was the PP qback on two teams and another top dman highly desired league wide.

Not even close with Benning's disasters

 

[Bojack Horvatman]

I'll repeat what I said in the CHI GDT:

This team missed their window to contend while having players on great contracts. EP/Miller/Hughes/Horvat/Kuz were all great value at various points with overlap. Hughes got paid, Miller got paid, OEL brought in as a cap anchor while costing the team a cost controlled rookie. Horvat is going to get paid/traded. EP is going to get paid. Kuz is going to get paid. Demko is nice value still but going to get paid further down the line.

This core isn’t Tampa or Colorado where you can surround them with cheap role players and contend, and even those teams won cups with some core players on great value contracts.

The prospect pool is one of the worst in the league, this team just won't have many top 9F/top 4D contracts that are providing great surplus value over the next few years outside of 3rd/4th line tweeners and #4/#5 dmen tweeners.

Looking at it as black and white as “we have a core” is lazy analysis.

Yup. Said this before as well. We couldn’t compete when Pettersson, Miller, Horvat, Hughes and Boeser were making 20m. We won’t be getting that opportunity back. By the 2024 offseason our core will be probably be about double that and that is if Pettersson just doesn’t take his QO to UFA.

Like you said it’s not like we were a contender, and can just fill the team with cheap depth players. We still have major holes, and need 2-3 more top 4 D with ideally one being a top pairing shut down D. We will need a lot of good cheap players coming up, and we have.
-2 picks in the first 2 rounds of the last 3 drafts. Both skill wingers and Lekkerimaki has had a rough D+1. Also missing a 2nd for 2024.
-Tampa’s farm team is always adding players that they have developed in Syracuse. Our farm system has been a problem since we have lost the Moose. The only player we have developed has the first name Jack and the last name Shit.
-Sure we can sign college and European free agents. These signings will rarely move the needle. There won’t be a Kuzmenko level player every year, let alone being able to sign him.

 

[Peen]

About Gillis's pro scouting

A Oberg and 3rd rnd, 83rd or so pick for Higgins? A solid two way forward that moved up and own the top 9 but could also play on the 4th line.

Lapierre for Perrault and another 80 something

Erhoff for White and Rahmi

Hamhuis and Garrison the to top UFAs those years both come to Vancouver at discounts

Alberts for a 85th pick

Too many to count even the Ballard trade was not as bad, Ballard was the PP qback on two teams and another top dman highly desired league wide.

Not even close with Benning's disasters

They paid nothing for Booth and got a 3rd back in that deal. Then Booth fell off a cliff, although I will acknowledge that his fit was questionable from the start. But they paid nothing.

Ballard was a failure.

Honestly the biggest sore thumb in Gillis’ trade history from 2010 onwards was the Pahlsson trade. I hated the Schneider deal, and still think they could have done better there, but it worked out for them because Schneider’s body gave out and we were bad anyways so it didn’t matter.

 

[theguardianII]

Mike Gillis secret tanked when he flipped Luongo and Schneider for futures in separate deals.

And then trade Luongo for Markstrom who was adjusting to the NHL.

No Miller and the team is right in the hunt for McDavid and Eichel, right there.

And just look around the league, Tortorella is THE BEST COACH for bringing along young prospects. Columbus and now Philly, before Tampa and NYR.

It was set up for the quick tank and rebound with most of the cup core intact. What he could have got back in a Kesler trade who knows but Larkin was the pick over Virtanen. Horvat and Larkin at center.

With the Sedins and most of the core cup finalists as mentors! A winning culture maintained.

 

[BrentSopelsHair]

And yet many of the Canucks so called faithful will never take a good long hard look in the mirror, this team doesn't owe us a thing and some yet some of us act like petulant entitled brats, you'd rather run your mouth and try and get people fired than turning the TV off for a bit.

Well to that I say, well done, either sit in the mess you made or shut the f--- up for once.

As always, blaming the pressure of a passionate fanbase is overwhelmingly huge loser shit. Many teams would kill for the engagement that this franchise is actively pushing away

 

[theguardianII]

They paid nothing for Booth and got a 3rd back in that deal. Then Booth fell off a cliff, although I will acknowledge that his fit was questionable from the start. But they paid nothing.

Ballard was a failure.

Honestly the biggest sore thumb in Gillis’ trade history from 2010 onwards was the Pahlsson trade. I hated the Schneider deal, and still think they could have done better there, but it worked out for them because Schneider’s body gave out and we were bad anyways so it didn’t matter.

But through all that they were competing for first over all in the league and a playoff surety.

Turns out Ballard had some serious injuries I thought it was just AV getting even for a hit on a Montreal player. Mr Ego carried grudges into his coaching. That is why he played Kassian so much because after he orchestrated the Kassian trade, which was for the wrong Kassian, he wanted the one he had coached and was an effective 3rd/4th line energy player that is why Buffalo's coach, Lindy Ruff kept saying "they are not getting the player they think they are" he was referring that to literally, I though he meant they just misjudged the skill level at the time, but the other Kassian would have helped that winning team more.

The stealth tank was set up though, the cap structure, player ages, no goal tending without trading away valuable core players. Set up for another decade of playoff certainty with only two bad years in between.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

And then trade Luongo for Markstrom who was adjusting to the NHL.

No Miller and the team is right in the hunt for McDavid and Eichel, right there.

And just look around the league, Tortorella is THE BEST COACH for bringing along young prospects. Columbus and now Philly, before Tampa and NYR.

It was set up for the quick tank and rebound with most of the cup core intact. What he could have got back in a Kesler trade who knows but Larkin was the pick over Virtanen. Horvat and Larkin at center.

With the Sedins and most of the core cup finalists as mentors! A winning culture maintained.

Nylander / Ehlers

 

[MS]

Who do you think turns into a contender first? Detroit is stacked with prospects

I mean, Detroit is probably in a bit better position.

But I'd rather take my chances with the group we have now than wait 8 more years and hope that Moritz Seider and a bunch of prospects - with little at C and nothing at G - is going to lead me to the promised land.

 

[credulous]

Who do you think turns into a contender first? Detroit is stacked with prospects

even if their prospects don't develop into 'core' players they have the currency to buy them in trades as they become available

vancouver's most attractive asset outside the nhl is probably hoglander or podkolzin and i don't think they fetch much in return

 

[theguardianII]

I mean, Detroit is probably in a bit better position.

But I'd rather take my chances with the group we have now than wait 8 more years and hope that Moritz Seider and a bunch of prospects - with little at C and nothing at G - is going to lead me to the promised land.

Wait 8 more years? Just how long do you think this group has? This group, for the most part have already had 4/5 years and not even earned a playoff spot.

Take what chances? For what? To what end?

Please don't be one of those fans that actually believes anything can happen in the playoffs.

And what about LA, Edmonton, Anaheim or other teams in the division let alone the conference? Most have made moves to be much younger or have many more young players that can make a dent.

This could be the best forward and goaltending this team has over the next, well until when they do the proper rebuild.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

even if their prospects don't develop into 'core' players they have the currency to buy them in trades as they become available

vancouver's most attractive asset outside the nhl is probably hoglander or podkolzin and i don't think they fetch much in return

I've heard this argument for ages..Yes, having good players gives you currency, but when top impact players become available, the asking price is generally 'quality for quality'.....Young depth players from your farm are usually sweeteners or secondary pieces.

 

[hookshott]

Nylander / Ehlers

instead of Virtanen were the obvious choices that Aqua and Benning passed on early....and the rest is history!

 

[Frankie Blueberries]

What is going on here today. Oh my.

I’m not saying the organization astroturfs, but…

 

[Frankie Blueberries]

i somewhat agree but the pro scouting of this team was atrocious before benning and his most notorious targets, gudbranson and sutter, were both targeted previously by gillis. that causes me to wonder if he blew the kesler trade and aftermath with a little help, and also that he maybe got a little better as time went on. i quite like his last moves other than the collosal gamble on oel.

anyway, we've been having these debates for years and you've previously attacked and ridiculed me many times for my position that aquaman is the real problem and people's energy was misdirected at benning.

surely now, after what just happened, you can accept there is something to what i have been saying? after all, it's even in your usename these days.

Gillis’ pro scouting was miles ahead of Benning, I have no idea what you are talking about. When you consider the moves in terms of quality of players acquired, hit/miss ratio, and assets given up in acquiring players, which included Ehrhoff, Hamhuis, Malhotra, Tanev, Torres, Higgins, Demitra, Sundin, Lapierre, Markstrom, Matthias, Garrison, Kassian, etc. Yeah, he had some misses like Booth and Ballard, but the hits and assets given up overshadow them.

Equating pro scouting from pre-Benning to Benning just indicates that you have not followed the team very closely at all and are out of your element in this discussion.

Gillis being interested in Sutter/Gudbranson isn’t a great point since Benning had a few additional seasons of data to go off of, where they weren’t trending very well.

 

[MS]

Wait 8 more years? Just how long do you think this group has? This group, for the most part have already had 4/5 years and not even earned a playoff spot.

Take what chances? For what? To what end?

Please don't be one of those fans that actually believes anything can happen in the playoffs.

And what about LA, Edmonton, Anaheim or other teams in the division let alone the conference? Most have made moves to be much younger or have many more young players that can make a dent.

This could be the best forward and goaltending this team has over the next, well until when they do the proper rebuild.

No, the point is that Detroit took that long to get to where they are now. Actually 7 years, sorry.

If you gave me the choice between trying to fix Pettersson et al with better coaching and a better supporting cast or tanking for another 7 years to end up where Detroit is now, again, I'll take my chances on building around the star players we have - which are better than what Detroit ended up with after their tank.

 

[mriswith]

If Holland is building your team it will take 70 years, just like Benning can spend 8 years "rebuilding" while making zero improvement to the roster or the standings and exiting with a mess of contracts and no farm. I'd take spending 7 years and end where Det is now versus spend 8 years with Benning and end where we are now.

The clock in Det starts with Yzerman in 2019 in my books. And their lack of centres reflects their lack of top 3 picks and only one top 5 pick, the point of tanking is to land that franchise centre in the first couple picks of the draft, not try to be half in half out and pick 6-10 every year.

 

[MS]

If Holland is building your team it will take 70 years, just like Benning can spend 8 years "rebuilding" while making zero improvement to the roster or the standings and exiting with a mess of contracts and no farm. I'd take spending 7 years and end where Det is now versus spend 8 years with Benning and end where we are now.

The clock in Det starts with Yzerman in 2019 in my books. And their lack of centres reflects their lack of top 3 picks and only one top 5 pick, the point of tanking is to land that franchise centre in the first couple picks of the draft, not try to be half in half out and pick 6-10 every year.

Why on earth would we just ignore the first two years of their tank/rebuild where they had top-10 picks and 20 draft selections in 14 rounds?

Why on earth would we just ignore that Detroit was trying to finish bottom-3 in all of those years but that it isn't that simple and automatic to draft #1 overall and get a franchise C?