Management Thread | The Song Remains the Same Edition

[Canucker]

no it isn't that simple - addressing those problems (which i am not disagreeing with) do not get addressed at a trade deadline. doing what they did i don't think is ignoring what the problems were. in the reality of WHAT happened - not ignoring those problems they should have added defensive players to the team to help it which would have been true short sightedness.

simply playing out the season and letting an inspired group (for once) try and make it - none of these things that are wrong with the team are not fixed in a trade deadline or through some random moves in an offseason

I disagree...management identified problems with the team, clearly had an early idea of what they wanted to do but once they got on a heater, they folded....their plan went out the window. They knew the team was winning through smoke and mirrors but capitulated to the whims of an owner and fanbase that hadn't had a taste of success in a long time...then they wimped out during the offseason and now they are reaping what they've sowed...the fact that they doubled down on a team that they fully understood was fatally flawed. The problems with this team cannot be solved in one trade deadline or offseason, but they have to start fixing the problems at some point because they're not going to fix themselves, unless they're prepared to wait out bad contracts.

 

[mriswith]

So basically this endless argument - essentially - is boiling down to one side saying i knew i was right and the other side saying there was nothing to be right about due to reality.. i think this is what i have read the past several pages?

everything was dead under benning and green. the players, the fans .. everything. a new group comes in and speaks about what they saw with a dead team - they stunk. then they came to life, played exciting hockey, fought to make it meaningful hockey, got the city excited and seemed to come together (even the cliched fighting through injuries to key players to stay alive storyline)..

i don't understand why a new group (that we need to remember this as a business still needs to build trust with their employees) was going to cut their throats and gut the team. very likely they said to themselves in february - well ok shit.. looks like they are going for it. call it a bump or whatever tired nickname it has now the team played meaningful inspired games for a long time and fought to get as close as they could, and management let them do it. ok, show us what you got.

the talk about failing the deadline or not moving the ufa players (i saw a couple times) who were all these ufa players that could have been moved to get the assets? motte? lammiko.. and how did we blow a deadline when it was talked about how valuable miller was at his salary for TWO runs for a team - and a leaked offer was a 1st rounder, lundqvist and chytil? wow, great f***en value for TWO runs.. late first rounder, a bum stalled flaw dman and at the time a middling find his way young player (even though i liked him at the time) - doesn't seem like there was that much value to have in the first place.

management was going to give this group a chance with how they were playing, the team said no, let us try and fix this and they did it. that is like THE most normal thing in a company to happen when new management comes in. one thing i don't think i've read yet, in all the 'dumb management' tone is that they DIDN"T buy into the bump and add to the team, making those deadline expensive deals to try and help them get there. THAT is something managements do all the time, but these guys didn't which sure as hell doesn't get mentioned.

it is also totally reasonable to believe that from their initial assessment of the team to say, December this year that it hasn't changed, that they are now just being proven correct by the players/results/coaches etc..

overall i'm not exactly sure what the argument is about really - i mean i feel i am fairly rational when it comes to this stuff, have followed this game for over 30 years, played for many and i enjoy studying and learning trends/financials etc.. but last year if i had a choice between playoff berth or the long overdue rebuild or tool or pivot or whatever the nuance word of the hour is i would have said playoffs.

Based mostly on the contract situation of the players on our team and partially on the state of our farm, we maxed out the potential of the team last year.

There was no new information to be seen by playing out this season.

And each year after this, barring massive change, the team will get picked apart by entropy just to keep most of the same squad, let alone add significant pieces.

The team needs options more than anything else. Futures and cap space create options, no futures and no cap space eliminate options.

Some of us preferred proactively creating more futures and more cap space at the cost of being less competitive in the immediate (1-2 years) future.

Others preferred to double down on Benning's group and let the entire plan for improvement rest on trying to hit hail mary's and home runs ex nihilo while adding a bunch of contracts with the potential to be crippling in 3+ years .

 

[Ernie]

These are just snippets, though. What his truth and how he felt is between him and himself only. Our situation has changed drastically since then, keep in mind and he's allowed to change his mind with new information presented to him. I'll leave his response to him.

I think it's entirely fair to change your mind. But that's not what we're talking about. This team is not good and waving some magic wand in the shape of a goalie won't change that. But yup - I'm sure he'll confirm his switch to the Kraken at that time, because that's what happened.

 

[Reverend Mayhem]

I think it's entirely fair to change your mind. But that's not what we're talking about. This team is not good and waving some magic wand in the shape of a goalie won't change that. But yup - I'm sure he'll confirm his switch to the Kraken at that time, because that's what happened.

Hey, I get it. I don't think good goaltending would really take us all that far anyways, the entire D needs to be re-structured which is not happening with OEL still here forever and Myers for next year. I'm not taking sides, but obviously something changed between his posts then and now and I would like to hear him out at least.

 

[andora]

I disagree...management identified problems with the team, clearly had an early idea of what they wanted to do but once they got on a heater, they folded....their plan went out the window. They knew the team was winning through smoke and mirrors but capitulated to the whims of an owner and fanbase that hadn't had a taste of success in a long time...then they wimped out during the offseason and now they are reaping what they've sowed...the fact that they doubled down on a team that they fully understood was fatally flawed. The problems with this team cannot be solved in one trade deadline or offseason, but they have to start fixing the problems at some point because they're not going to fix themselves, unless they're prepared to wait out bad contracts.

because they played out the heater does not prove a plan went out the window. it is easy to say things like this but that is quite circumstantial. all i'm saying is that playing that out doesn't necessarily change what guys upstairs are thinking. what is the fallout? they sacrificed a draft pick in 2022 where they might have to get a draft pick in 2023, or 2024. ok.

i think it is reasonable to acknowledge that when a person or group takes over a leadership role, the most effective way to approach the job is to manage and implement as if you will be there forever (all the talk of vision/plan etc..) - so at the end of the day it's just as easy for me to presume that they upstairs approach this as if they are here forever.. so playing out a heater to see what the players can do, gain the experience, get some footing with the fans and 'folding' for six months isn't necessarily a big deal when you are planning for years beyond.

as a separate question, do you think that if someone came calling last deadline looking for myers or oel or pearson or dickinson and were willing to pay those moves wouldn't have been made? NOTHING moved last season/deadline with term.. and a leaked deal for the teams most valuable offensive asset was pretty piss poor based on the narrative that it would be a top offensive player for not one but 2 runs..

and while some of the problems aren't fixed by getting RID of players, some problems are attempted to be addressed by adding players (bottom forward depth, ufa young depth, mikheyev etc...) - and likely say some of the problems were gotten ride of last year (myers/boeser/pearson for example) - there would be far less scrutiny over who was added. but because we dont have room to capitalize on all the amazing middle players around the league who we have added get dumped on.

 

[andora]

Based mostly on the contract situation of the players on our team and partially on the state of our farm, we maxed out the potential of the team last year.

There was no new information to be seen by playing out this season.

And each year after this, barring massive change, the team will get picked apart by entropy just to keep most of the same squad, let alone add significant pieces.

The team needs options more than anything else. Futures and cap space create options, no futures and no cap space eliminate options.

Some of us preferred proactively creating more futures and more cap space at the cost of being less competitive in the immediate (1-2 years) future.

Others preferred to double down on Benning's group and let the entire plan for improvement rest on trying to hit hail mary's and home runs ex nihilo while adding a bunch of contracts with the potential to be crippling in 3+ years .

so all in all we are potentially seeing this happen this year rather than last year - so a year later than some wanted.

 

[Canucker]

because they played out the heater does not prove a plan went out the window. it is easy to say things like this but that is quite circumstantial. all i'm saying is that playing that out doesn't necessarily change what guys upstairs are thinking. what is the fallout? they sacrificed a draft pick in 2022 where they might have to get a draft pick in 2023, or 2024. ok.

i think it is reasonable to acknowledge that when a person or group takes over a leadership role, the most effective way to approach the job is to manage and implement as if you will be there forever (all the talk of vision/plan etc..) - so at the end of the day it's just as easy for me to presume that they upstairs approach this as if they are here forever.. so playing out a heater to see what the players can do, gain the experience, get some footing with the fans and 'folding' for six months isn't necessarily a big deal when you are planning for years beyond.

as a separate question, do you think that if someone came calling last deadline looking for myers or oel or pearson or dickinson and were willing to pay those moves wouldn't have been made? NOTHING moved last season/deadline with term.. and a leaked deal for the teams most valuable offensive asset was pretty piss poor based on the narrative that it would be a top offensive player for not one but 2 runs..

and while some of the problems aren't fixed by getting RID of players, some problems are attempted to be addressed by adding players (bottom forward depth, ufa young depth, mikheyev etc...) - and likely say some of the problems were gotten ride of last year (myers/boeser/pearson for example) - there would be far less scrutiny over who was added. but because we dont have room to capitalize on all the amazing middle players around the league who we have added get dumped on.

I think their original plan went out the window, then their secondary plan went out the window and now they're back to the first plan...I am of the mind that if you have a plan, you enact that plan...have the courage of your convictions. Playing out the heater, despite knowing that your team has significant failings that need to be addressed is either burying your head in the sand or kicking the can down the road...it's not fixing the problem. Now I'm not going to argue that I think there were tons of people knocking down our doors to get their hands on OEL or Tyler Myers, but there were opportunities to make moves....moving Miller should have happened, yes it was a bit of a stinker of a deal, but the team needed the cap flexibility and they needed some younger pieces...they could have taken the QO for Boeser (or taken him to arbitration), they could have left Mikheyev for someone else to pay for....all those things could have built them some additional flexibility to fix a big problem with the team.

 

[RebuildinVan]

Cap geek says we have $7.6m available at the TDL. Am I reading that right...and would this management group use that to launder for more picks?

 

[Vector]

Cap geek says we have $7.6m available at the TDL. Am I reading that right...and would this management group use that to launder for more picks?

Yes, they have just over 7.6m in LTIR space after putting Pearson on LTIR. They can use that to act as a broker but only have 2 retention spots left. I suspect they will probably save one for a Boeser deal. That leaves only one to be used as a broker.

 

[andora]

Yes, they have just over 7.6m in LTIR space after putting Pearson on LTIR. They can use that to act as a broker but only have 2 retention spots left. I suspect they will probably save one for a Boeser deal. That leaves only one to be used as a broker.

well f*** it then let's get involved in patrick kane - for atleast 10 minutes patrick kane can be a canuck

 

[Vector]

well f*** it then let's get involved in patrick kane - for atleast 10 minutes patrick kane can be a canuck

I had Kane, Toews, JVR, Klingberg, and Henrique as the only players that really fit the profile.

 

[andora]

I had Kane, Toews, JVR, Klingberg, and Henrique as the only players that really fit the profile.

watch it be Kane and boston
or toews and the rangers

something just totally off the wall

 

[RebuildinVan]

well f*** it then let's get involved in patrick kane - for atleast 10 minutes patrick kane can be a canuck

As soon as I saw that a big Kane rentention could get a decent pic from both sides

 

[PuckMunchkin]

This is so weird to me. Management had a plan coming into the season and when things trended downward, they pivoted and changed the plan for this season. That's kinda how everything works in the real world. You have a plan and it's not working, you change. There is fundamentally nothing wrong with that. And the bit about us being fortunate, there is nothing really fortunate about it. They are leaning hard into losing right now by shutting guys down, playing Silovs, getting players to practice instead of resting for game day and essentially broadcasting to everyone that, winning doesn't matter process does. If you paid attention to the interview with Waddell, Allvin were negotiating with teams for the highest pick and he got it.

After all these years of Benning executing a plan and double downing, triple downing regardless how the season is doing, like I am genuinely surprised that posters are like dunking on this management group for pivoting. If they go into next season and the season after where their initial plan fails and they have to pivot again, then that's when we should really be hammering them because like how can you make the same mistakes over and over again.

Its not about pivoting.

I was obvious to everyone, except 3 posters on these forums, and our management, that these next few years we were going to suck no matter what.

If they got the state of the team this wrong, are they the right people to manage the rebuild?

 

[PuckMunchkin]

This isn't a 'lack of vision' relative to other teams.

Literally no owner or organization in sport would do this from the position we were in. It's not how things work.

It's super easy for fans in video-game mode to say 'do this!' when it isn't their money getting lost by the $millions and they don't have to look the people reporting to them in the face and tell them they aren't trying to compete.

It also remains an incredibly intellectually dishonest argument to act like the results we've seen this year have been an accurate representation of the team on paper going into the season. If Thatcher Demko gives us league average goaltending numbers we're somewhere in the playoff bubble picture.

Lets say this mantra of yours is the gospel.

Thank f***in god we didn't get league average goaltending this year.

Forcing our managements hand to actually do what needed to be done.


If we had league average management these past 12 months we would not have the cap issues and glut of wings we currently have.

 

[arttk]

Its not about pivoting.

I was obvious to everyone, except 3 posters on these forums, and our management, that these next few years we were going to suck no matter what.

If they got the state of the team this wrong, are they the right people to manage the rebuild?

Is it obvious to everyone that Demko was going to suck and OEL was going to fall off an absolute cliff and be a literal pylon?

Like what @MS has said, if we would’ve gotten average goal tending and not historic bad goaltending we would be in the wild card racex.

I think it’s a pivot in the sense that they are changing what they are doing for the rest of the year. I don’t really think they are going to shift away from a retool but all of the moves they will make for the rest of the year will be to maximize draft capital so they can accrue enough future assets now so they can free themselves to trade picks in coming years.

Also just saying what I think they are doing.

 

[Hodgy]

Yes, they have just over 7.6m in LTIR space after putting Pearson on LTIR. They can use that to act as a broker but only have 2 retention spots left. I suspect they will probably save one for a Boeser deal. That leaves only one to be used as a broker.

I assume retention spots reset on July 1st? If so, I wonder if it makes more sense to retain as a broker on two trades at the deadline (assuming you can pick up like two thirds in this draft) and wait to trade Boeser until after July 1st? There isn’t really a rush to trade him and I actually think his value will only go up.

 

[Vector]

I assume retention spots reset on July 1st? If so, I wonder if it makes more sense to retain as a broker on two trades at the deadline (assuming you can pick up like two thirds in this draft) and wait to trade Boeser until after July 1st? There isn’t really a rush to trade him and I actually think his value will only go up.

Part of the problem with that is by filling out all slots you've shut down, presumably, the majority of the Boeser trade opportunities from the end of the post-season and through the draft. So it's weighing the compensation for doing that (which is usually later round picks pretty far into the future) against the flexibility of trading Boeser/Myers/Garland with retention.

I don't think either is a bad strategy you just have to be comfortable that the second category of trades won't happen until after July 1st.

 

[I Hart Conor Garland]

Hey, I get it. I don't think good goaltending would really take us all that far anyways, the entire D needs to be re-structured which is not happening with OEL still here forever and Myers for next year. I'm not taking sides, but obviously something changed between his posts then and now and I would like to hear him out at least.

There is nothing to hear out. He is consistent in that his takes are formed by his opinion that a team in our position would never realistically rebuild.

 

[TruGr1t]

Management has made a few key errors to date that have materially contributed to the results this season. Mostly completely missing the market on forwards, predicating their entire plan on the cap going up, the inexplicable Miller contract, and the Boeser signing. Outside of that it’s been pretty average work, all things considered. They also naively thought they could move OEL/Myers, I suspect, though for various reasons you can’t.

The plan was always to ditch inefficient salary. They just haven’t been able to do that. The great sin is their inability to move any salary whatsoever effectively led to the Miller deal and moves to make the cap situation even more inefficient through allocation of salary to the wings.

Now the roster is a complete dog’s breakfast of salary inefficiency that makes it impossible to see how anyone could fix the blue line in any meaningful way over the next ~3 years.

If they make the playoffs in that time span it will be a fluke.

 

[Canucker]

There is nothing to hear out. He is consistent in that his takes are formed by his opinion that a team in our position would never realistically rebuild.

lol..."our position" being what? A team at the cap ceiling, with a barren prospect pipeline, and a completely inept defensive group that relied on elite level goaltending to try and make it to a potential wild card seeding? Yeah, why would a team like that ever consider rebuilding?

 

[Hit the post]

lol..."our position" being what? A team at the cap ceiling, with a barren prospect pipeline, and a completely inept defensive group that relied on elite level goaltending to try and make it to a potential wild card seeding? Yeah, why would a team like that ever consider rebuilding?

Gillis was so bad, we can still blame him for the awful management of Jim Benning.

 

[racerjoe]

Management has made a few key errors to date that have materially contributed to the results this season. Mostly completely missing the market on forwards, predicating their entire plan on the cap going up, the inexplicable Miller contract, and the Boeser signing. Outside of that it’s been pretty average work, all things considered. They also naively thought they could move OEL/Myers, I suspect, though for various reasons you can’t.

The plan was always to ditch inefficient salary. They just haven’t been able to do that. The great sin is their inability to move any salary whatsoever effectively led to the Miller deal and moves to make the cap situation even more inefficient through allocation of salary to the wings.

Now the roster is a complete dog’s breakfast of salary inefficiency that makes it impossible to see how anyone could fix the blue line in any meaningful way over the next ~3 years.

If they make the playoffs in that time span it will be a fluke.

Its funny, how I agree with a fair bit here, but come to a completely different conclusion with where this team is, and this management team. I agree with what you were saying is their mistakes for the most part. I do think they thought they could move the wingers and misjudged the market, and that Boeser contract was a mistake.

With their goal I don't think Miller was a mistake. If they wanted to win you keep your best players. If they wanted to rebuild yes they should have moved him, for a retool, 1 of Miller or Horvat should have been moved, with what Horvat signed for I have no problem with keeping miller over him.

I also think some things were looked at longer term. I don't think they thought they could move OEL. I think they obviously looked at it, but doubt they thought it was realistic. I think they looked at clearing space with a longer view then just right now.

I think people get caught judging the team now for a longer term project. They talked about a two year plan, we are 1 year in. Before Benning was fired no one thought this could be turned around in a year. So lets give them the time they asked for... maybe they are terrible, but judging a have done plan for the full one is a bad argument.

I do think the D can be turned around much quicker especially with this offseason. I don't see Myers, or Schenn back. That is most of the RHD side, and I can see an upgrade on the Left. That would be half the top six changed. That would be drastic. I hope, but doubt we buy out OEL, and that too would be even more massive.

 

[canucksfan]

Its funny, how I agree with a fair bit here, but come to a completely different conclusion with where this team is, and this management team. I agree with what you were saying is their mistakes for the most part. I do think they thought they could move the wingers and misjudged the market, and that Boeser contract was a mistake.

With their goal I don't think Miller was a mistake. If they wanted to win you keep your best players. If they wanted to rebuild yes they should have moved him, for a retool, 1 of Miller or Horvat should have been moved, with what Horvat signed for I have no problem with keeping miller over him.

I also think some things were looked at longer term. I don't think they thought they could move OEL. I think they obviously looked at it, but doubt they thought it was realistic. I think they looked at clearing space with a longer view then just right now.

I think people get caught judging the team now for a longer term project. They talked about a two year plan, we are 1 year in. Before Benning was fired no one thought this could be turned around in a year. So lets give them the time they asked for... maybe they are terrible, but judging a have done plan for the full one is a bad argument.

I do think the D can be turned around much quicker especially with this offseason. I don't see Myers, or Schenn back. That is most of the RHD side, and I can see an upgrade on the Left. That would be half the top six changed. That would be drastic. I hope, but doubt we buy out OEL, and that too would be even more massive.

I don't see how the defense can be turned around this off-season. The team has little cap space and very few trade chips. Furthermore, teams seem to be hanging onto their good defensemen.

 

[Canucker]

I don't see how the defense can be turned around this off-season. The team has little cap space and very few trade chips. Furthermore, teams seem to be hanging onto their good defensemen.

I think they CAN do a decent overhaul of the defense, but unless they go the buyout route we're going to be stuck with OEL...if we were able to sign Jake Livingstone and perhaps package a few assets (Hoglander, Rathbone, Dermott, draft picks, etc) together to trade for a defender who may have fallen out of favor, or a team looking to make room for other defensemen we can at the very least build a defense with a reasonably new look. I'm curious what will happen with Myers...I'm not entirely sure how you get rid of him, it sounds easy enough once the bonus is paid, but he still has a $6m cap hit and trade protection...so I'm not sure how easy it will actually be.