Management Thread | Regular Season Edition

[F A N]

So it's awesome to hear from Laurence Gilman again on S&P (why didn't Aquaman just go simple in 2014 and promote him to GM?), but I learned something about the practicalities of cap management from him in today's hit --

When the Canucks send down Bains and Brännström between games, it is not a paper transaction, and they are obliged to report to Abbotsford in person. Now Gilman didn't know how rigorously the NHL would actually be checking for their car moving down Highway 1, but (i) it does matter if they are caught practicing with the NHL team while officially off the roster, and (ii) when the 2011-era Canucks were sending players down to the Moose to maximize cap space, they did literally send them on planes to Winnipeg and the NHL apparently did require proof.

I find this kind of bewildering (and also kind of an environmental disaster). And while I never felt the urgency to get the farm team out of Utica before, knowing this now, that's a huge difference-maker. That's two flights plus an hour's ride from Syracuse, and not something that can be done casually or repeatedly.

I'm surprised by this. I seem to have heard reports in previous years where the player (who has been re-assigned/papered down) will be staying in town.

I was under the impression that the team can give a player some time before they have to report to to the AHL team and if they are immediately recalled they wouldn't need to make the trip?

 

[SillyRabbit]

I've been quite supportive of the management group thus far, but I really don't understand how they looked at least year's defensive core (which was already quite thin) and not only failed to upgrade it but actually made it worse.

We are lacking two top four defenceman. Not one, two.

And while there are some available out there, they will not be cheap.

I really don't understand how they looked at this defensive core and felt confident in it heading into the season.

 

[rypper]

I've been quite supportive of the management group thus far, but I really don't understand how they looked at least year's defensive core (which was already quite thin) and not only failed to upgrade it but actually made it worse.

We are lacking two top four defenceman. Not one, two.

And while there are some available out there, they will not be cheap.

I really don't understand how they looked at this defensive core and felt confident in it heading into the season.

I think the knew it was an unfinished product. They'll trade for a top 4 defender soon (like they always do.) But a move that wasn't there in the off season. Take a chance on a project add some depth going into the season to weather the storm until they go get the player they really like.

 

[SillyRabbit]

I think the knew it was an unfinished product. They'll trade for a top 4 defender soon (like they always do.) But a move that wasn't there in the off season. Take a chance on a project add some depth going into the season to weather the storm until they go get the player they really like.

I mean I feel like there were options as simple as just re-signing Zadorov?

The price for a top 4 defenceman is going to be steep this year.

The way I see it playing out is:

A) We don't get the quality of top 4 defender that we're looking for and our defensive core remains weak
B) We have to pay a high price to get a solid top 4 defender and people are unhappy with how much we paid

I hope I'm wrong though. The Zadorov trade last year was a great trade so management has shown they have the ability to pull stuff like that off.

 

[tantalum]

I've been quite supportive of the management group thus far, but I really don't understand how they looked at least year's defensive core (which was already quite thin) and not only failed to upgrade it but actually made it worse.

We are lacking two top four defenceman. Not one, two.

And while there are some available out there, they will not be cheap.

I really don't understand how they looked at this defensive core and felt confident in it heading into the season.

I think they have two top 4 guys (well top 2 guys) and then a couple guys that can function as a 4/5 but are not able to anchor a second pairing. They are missing that #3 that can stabilize Soucy or Myers, bumping the other down to the third pairing.

 

[Bertuzzzi44]

I've been quite supportive of the management group thus far, but I really don't understand how they looked at least year's defensive core (which was already quite thin) and not only failed to upgrade it but actually made it worse.

The biggest surprise of the playoffs was the great defensive play of the Canucks. The bottom 4 were terrific while Hronek & Hughes struggled and were deliberately targeted.

Playoff D Rankings:
1. Zadorov
2. Myers
3. Soucy

4. Hughes
5. Hronek
6. Cole


It’s wild how drastically different the playoffs are, it’s a totally different game, the Soucy-Myers pairing transformed into an elite shutdown pairing, Cole was great in the 1st series but was spent and terrible in the 2nd series, Big Z looked like Pronger while our 2 best defenceman in the regular season became liabilities at times.

 

[theguardianII]

This season should be making it crystal clear that the core of Boeser, Pettersson, Miller, Hughes, Demko and Garland are not good enough.

Last year the group added some that could have been added to that core.

But for some reason rather than keeping the majority of the new players added they decided to shed pretty much all and depend on a core that has been together for 6+ years and only had one good season.

The team has had 100 pt players, a Norris trophy rookies of the year, Vezina conversations, multiple 30+ goal scorers. All from this core at one time or another. But they failed then and with the revamping of the only successful season in a decade they appear set to bottom out again.

The fallacy of the 200 foot player. Not every team has all their players or their top scorers being the ideal 200 foot players.
Players that may not be perfect on defence are a constant scoring threat keeping the opposing defence more honest, keeping them from pinching or trying to not get caught on the wrong side of the puck. Pasternak, Ovechkin? Panarin? McDavid? Mathews? No, offence first and on winning teams.
Those scorers back off the defence earlier making openings for defence to rush through zones, gaps for drop passes to slower snipers. Force the other team to adjust.

This is why the line of Kuzmenko, more offensive threat, Pettersson, at one time a Selke candidate and distributor and scoring threat thanks to Kuz pushing the defence back and Mikheyev, a defensive player to make up for Kuz's lack but also a lightening fast player to forecheck and again push the defence back, suck forwards deep, opening up areas of the ice.
That is why that line worked so well.

But Tocchet doesn't want that kind of player.

This group suffers so much if only one of the core not counting Demko right now, is "off"

Since 2018 this "core" has been together with only one winning season.
This year this group, is essentially a new group, is searching for an identity and chemistry, that they had last year.

How bad is the team when a 3rd liner is expected to change the outcomes.

The players picked up are not scoring threats so the other teams can pinch much more and get so deep odd man rushes become more common.

There is a coaching problem, a system problem, a depth problem at every level.

IMO it is going to take big trade(s) to recapture last year's swagger. The core needs to be freshened. 2018 - 2024

 

[HairyKneel]

This season should be making it crystal clear that the core of Boeser, Pettersson, Miller, Hughes, Demko and Garland are not good enough.

Last year the group added some that could have been added to that core.

But for some reason rather than keeping the majority of the new players added they decided to shed pretty much all and depend on a core that has been together for 6+ years and only had one good season.

The team has had 100 pt players, a Norris trophy rookies of the year, Vezina conversations, multiple 30+ goal scorers. All from this core at one time or another. But they failed then and with the revamping of the only successful season in a decade they appear set to bottom out again.

The fallacy of the 200 foot player. Not every team has all their players or their top scorers being the ideal 200 foot players.
Players that may not be perfect on defence are a constant scoring threat keeping the opposing defence more honest, keeping them from pinching or trying to not get caught on the wrong side of the puck. Pasternak, Ovechkin? Panarin? McDavid? Mathews? No, offence first and on winning teams.
Those scorers back off the defence earlier making openings for defence to rush through zones, gaps for drop passes to slower snipers. Force the other team to adjust.

This is why the line of Kuzmenko, more offensive threat, Pettersson, at one time a Selke candidate and distributor and scoring threat thanks to Kuz pushing the defence back and Mikheyev, a defensive player to make up for Kuz's lack but also a lightening fast player to forecheck and again push the defence back, suck forwards deep, opening up areas of the ice.
That is why that line worked so well.

But Tocchet doesn't want that kind of player.

This group suffers so much if only one of the core not counting Demko right now, is "off"

Since 2018 this "core" has been together with only one winning season.
This year this group, is essentially a new group, is searching for an identity and chemistry, that they had last year.

How bad is the team when a 3rd liner is expected to change the outcomes.

The players picked up are not scoring threats so the other teams can pinch much more and get so deep odd man rushes become more common.

There is a coaching problem, a system problem, a depth problem at every level.

IMO it is going to take big trade(s) to recapture last year's swagger. The core needs to be freshened. 2018 - 2024

Glad you got that off your chest

 

[bossram]

Glad you got that off your chest

It's a message board. He's allowed to, y'know, post stuff.

 

[HairyKneel]

It's a message board. He's allowed to, y'know, post stuff.

Absolutely but he is like negative 99 % of the time. The team was a garbage fire for 8 years prior and look like they have competent management finally yet he wants o take a machete to everything in every post he makes. It's bizarre. Like he was asleep when Elmer was coiling the sheets on a daily basis. I'm not enamored with every move current management has made but this over the top doomsday negativity seems a bit much. Did he expect a cup by now since Elmo got gassed?

 

[Reverend Mayhem]

Some of y’all in this thread done lost yo mind

 

[Bertuzzzi44]

This season should be making it crystal clear that the core of Boeser, Pettersson, Miller, Hughes, Demko and Garland are not good enough.

Give the Core a chance, last year this core took the Oilers to game 7 of the 2nd round and may have it made it to the finals if Boeser & Demko weren’t out. This season the pressure is on to perform especially in the playoffs and I’m confident they’ll step up.

 

[arttk]

I'm surprised by this. I seem to have heard reports in previous years where the player (who has been re-assigned/papered down) will be staying in town.

I was under the impression that the team can give a player some time before they have to report to to the AHL team and if they are immediately recalled they wouldn't need to make the trip?

Might depend on situation, if they are sent down for the purpose of termination or with no intention of bringing them back to the main roster or any roster, they probably don’t need to check.

 

[F A N]

Might depend on situation, if they are sent down for the purpose of termination or with no intention of bringing them back to the main roster or any roster, they probably don’t need to check.

You are missing the point. We're discussing situations that is commonly referred to as "paper" transactions.

 

[Vector]

@F A N & @Jyrki21 I spent a lot of time over the last couple days trying to figure this out. I talked to a Penguins beat writer and on yesterday's Canucks Conversation David Quadrelli and Patrick Johnston added a bit more info. The short of it, when a player is sent down for cap purposes they do not have to report. However, if it is a game day in the AHL then they do have to report. When the Canucks first sent Brannstrom and Bains down, it wasn't a paper transaction and both had to report, according to Thomas Drance. No idea if they kept doing this or subsequent assignments were paper transactions.

 

[theguardianII]

Absolutely but he is like negative 99 % of the time. The team was a garbage fire for 8 years prior and look like they have competent management finally yet he wants o take a machete to everything in every post he makes. It's bizarre. Like he was asleep when Elmer was coiling the sheets on a daily basis. I'm not enamored with every move current management has made but this over the top doomsday negativity seems a bit much. Did he expect a cup by now since Elmo got gassed?

The team, players on the team were a garbage fire for 8 years. Suddenly they all become .... ?
One hired guy is going to change the way ALL the players play?

I really was on board with Allvin even with the hated OEL buyout with last years team, I have always thought and believed the window was much smaller with that old core group but 2 years ago I thought Allvin added enough high skilled and quality players to extend that window by a year or so.

After a good year, then they blew it up and reverted to that, "eight years of garbage" core group, they took away most or all of the support that allowed some of those players to have career seasons. They gutted that team.

 

[theguardianII]

Give the Core a chance, last year this core took the Oilers to game 7 of the 2nd round and may have it made it to the finals if Boeser & Demko weren’t out. This season the pressure is on to perform especially in the playoffs and I’m confident they’ll step up.

But is wasn't just the core, Lindholm, the top points guy, Zadorov, 2nd in defence points, these guys opened up ice for others just those two alone.

The team that took the Oilers to game seven is gone, this is a new group and even early they have issues.
This is a very easy schedule right now and the team has few serious injuries. Demko has been replaced adequately to date and to expect a 3rd liner to save the team? Really?

Already the idea of "Johusa will restore team identity", what an insult to the Captain and assistants.
I guess they exect him to fight in his first game back.

Last year's team maybe could have got to the finals but that is not this group.

 

[Jyrki21]

@F A N & @Jyrki21 I spent a lot of time over the last couple days trying to figure this out. I talked to a Penguins beat writer and on yesterday's Canucks Conversation David Quadrelli and Patrick Johnston added a bit more info. The short of it, when a player is sent down for cap purposes they do not have to report. However, if it is a game day in the AHL then they do have to report. When the Canucks first sent Brannstrom and Bains down, it wasn't a paper transaction and both had to report, according to Thomas Drance. No idea if they kept doing this or subsequent assignments were paper transactions.

So basically the AHL schedule dictates the timing (or at least whether you’ll need to do anything), it sounds like? Gilman did say they were physically sending guys like Schneider to Winnipeg for real, so I guess those stints included game days (or the rules changed).

 

[Vector]

So basically the AHL schedule dictates the timing (or at least whether you’ll need to do anything), it sounds like? Gilman did say they were physically sending guys like Schneider to Winnipeg for real, so I guess those stints included game days (or the rules changed).

From what I gather, at the time he was AGM of the Canucks they still had to report. It's only in the last 4-5 years where they no longer had to report. The timing could be off, however.

 

[Jyrki21]

From what I gather, at the time he was AGM of the Canucks they still had to report. It's only in the last 4-5 years where they no longer had to report. The timing could be off, however.

Oh interesting…! Maybe the league wants to do its part to reduce its carbon footprint.

Also, that would be a massive b*tch with getting to Utica.

 

[Vector]

Oh interesting…! Maybe the league wants to do its part to reduce its carbon footprint.

Also, that would be a massive b*tch with getting to Utica.

They brought up Utica! Jim Benning's team was never in the situation where they were looking to accumulate cap space so it didn't matter.

Sounds like they realized it was a stupid thing to make these players drive to a place or an airport just to turn around again. Was more of a punishment for the player so the league decided to make it easier on everyone.

 

[IComeInPeace]

Our 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th and 9th leading scorers on this team were all acquired as UFA’s

Also (excluding Quinn Hughes) the teams MVP at this point has likely been another UFA signing in Lankinen.

That’s 6 UFA’s at an average salary of just over $2.25 million playing significant roles on a very good team…

Sure, there have been some possible misses along the way (signing both Forbort and Desharnais instead of just one of them could work out that way), but what this management group has accomplished in free agency is absolutely amazing.

 

[tantalum]

Our 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th and 9th leading scorers on this team were all acquired as UFA’s

Also (excluding Quinn Hughes) the teams MVP at this point has likely been another UFA signing in Lankinen.

That’s 6 UFA’s at an average salary of just over $2.25 million playing significant roles on a very good team…

Sure, there have been some possible misses along the way (signing both Forbort and Desharnais instead of just one of them could work out that way), but what this management group has accomplished in free agency is absolutely amazing.

Ya but can they mentor? That average salary suggests absolutely not!

Seriously, there will always be misses but as long as the hits significantly outweigh them then things are moving in the correct direction.

 

[theguardianII]

No Boeser, No Demko and EP playing worse than Blueger for over 70 games now.
That is over 22 million in cap space. That's allows signing big name FAs in summer. Marner, Rantanen, ?
If Demko is already replaced, so far.
EP is easily replaced playing how he is playing now.
Boeser will be replaced on Miller's line just as Horvat's 30+ goals were.

 

[Lat]

No Boeser, No Demko and EP playing worse than Blueger for over 70 games now.
That is over 22 million in cap space. That's allows signing big name FAs in summer. Marner, Rantanen, ?
If Demko is already replaced, so far.
EP is easily replaced playing how he is playing now.
Boeser will be replaced on Miller's line just as Horvat's 30+ goals were.

And yet the Canucks are 7-2-3 when not firing on all cylinders...

Not sure how you can consider adding a UFA Marner or Rantanen given the cap situation in the next 2 seasons. You aren't going to flip Demko or EP with zero salary coming back.