Management Thread | Regular Season Edition

[tantalum]

Can't remember which thread it was, but for those who were going on and on about how bad Green is. I just saw a new interview with Tocchet where he reiterated that he consults with Craig Berube, Jon Cooper, and Travis Green in terms of other coaches in the league.

Hello cognitive dissonance. It can't be that maybe there's more going on behind the scenes than people can see from the outside, can it?

Keep in mind thinking the game and coaching can be wildly different things. Being an assistant coach and head coach are also wildly different things. Travis Green seems an intelligent guy. Doesn't mean he's head coach material and thus far in his head coaching career has shown he hasn't done a good job. Can he rectify that? Sure but he has objectively been a below average head coach. Not disastrous but below average.

 

[theguardianII]

What's always impressed me about Allvin, is that in the word of the gambler, "he knows when to hold-em, and when to throw-em". If he figures a guy can't help them, he's as good as gone, even if it was Allvin who signed him in the first place.

So players like Kuzmnko, Mikheyev, Beauvillier, Dickinson and Podkolzin were all flipped, often after only a single season. And Kuzmenko and Podkolzin were players that Allvin actually re-upped, before deciding to cut his losses.

It's such a refreshing approach. Under Benning, even when it became obvious that the guy they signed was a huge mistake and would never live up to expectations, he simply couldn't pull the trigger. And he even re-upped guys like Sutter and Gudbranson, after disappointing seasons.....somehow hoping they'd magically regain their form, whatever that was.

And I think Allvin is hardly done yet with the start of the season a week away. If he can make a deal that improves the hockey club even marginally, he'll do it. And if some guy they like pops up on waivers, he'll be active.

Flipped for what?
Flipped at what expense?

Or cut at all costs regardless of outcome?
Just these three;

Kuz was in only his second year in the league.
Mik was recovering from a very serious knee injury.
Zadorov was asking for 275K, never seriously injured.

Cost - Not counting the players that contributed to the 109pts.
1rst rnd 2024
4th rnd 2024
5th rnd 2024
3rd rnd 2026
2nd rnd 2027
*5th rnd 2024*
AAA RHD prospect
B prospect LHD
2 yrs of 710K retention
Lafferty and/or the added *5th rnd pick in 2024* to get him.

These late picks are important says Allvin.

Return -
26 gms - Lindholm & 54 gms - Zadorov both vital in playoffs. Lindholm 1rst in pts forwards, Zadorov 2nd in pts by defence
4th rnd 2027
Gone for nothing

?????? Good?????

Even though he inherited the OEL contract the buyout was .... well they said at the time they didn't want to add a pick because they were so important so they ended up with 8 years of dead cap space instead of 4 yrs at a lesser cost cap hit of 3.5 mil.
They probably could have traded him by adding one of those supposed priceless traded picks and retained only half of their obligation to his contract, 3.5 mil ending in 2026, instead they get a 2.3+ mil cap hit this year and 4.7+ mil cap hits the next 2 yrs followed by 4 yrs of 2+ mil.
But keeping the draft picks was so vitally important then, really?
What changed?

 

[God]

Can't remember which thread it was, but for those who were going on and on about how bad Green is. I just saw a new interview with Tocchet where he reiterated that he consults with Craig Berube, Jon Cooper, and Travis Green in terms of other coaches in the league.

Hello cognitive dissonance. It can't be that maybe there's more going on behind the scenes than people can see from the outside, can it?

I mean, Tocchet has clearly communicated in interviews that he has specific systems play in mind that seem to be working (perhaps with the exception of holding onto the puck for a perfect shot, but even he's talked about loosening that up).

Green's system was relying on the goalie to save his ass and having the D hit two wingers parked at centre ice for a breakaway, or whatever. And then he'd get mad when anyone asked him a question about it. And he was still shit in NJ, and I doubt he's learned anything.

 

[Hit the post]

Being an assistant general manage and general manager are also wildly different things. Dave Nonis seems an intelligent guy. Doesn't mean he's GM material and thus far in his GM career has shown he hasn't done a good job. Can he rectify that? Sure but he has objectively been a below average GM. Not disastrous but below average.

Edited to talk about Dave Nonis.

I mean, Tocchet has clearly communicated in interviews that he has specific systems play in mind that seem to be working (perhaps with the exception of holding onto the puck for a perfect shot, but even he's talked about loosening that up).

Green's system was relying on the goalie to save his ass and having the D hit two wingers parked at centre ice for a breakaway, or whatever. And then he'd get mad when anyone asked him a question about it. And he was still shit in NJ, and I doubt he's learned anything.

As opposed to Torts who had no system..



edit: and f*ck you Tarantino.

 

[arttk]

Flipped for what?
Flipped at what expense?

Or cut at all costs regardless of outcome?
Just these three;

Kuz was in only his second year in the league.
Mik was recovering from a very serious knee injury.
Zadorov was asking for 275K, never seriously injured.

Cost - Not counting the players that contributed to the 109pts.
1rst rnd 2024
4th rnd 2024
5th rnd 2024
3rd rnd 2026
2nd rnd 2027
*5th rnd 2024*
AAA RHD prospect
B prospect LHD
2 yrs of 710K retention
Lafferty and/or the added *5th rnd pick in 2024* to get him.

These late picks are important says Allvin.

Return -
26 gms - Lindholm & 54 gms - Zadorov both vital in playoffs. Lindholm 1rst in pts forwards, Zadorov 2nd in pts by defence
4th rnd 2027
Gone for nothing

?????? Good?????

Even though he inherited the OEL contract the buyout was .... well they said at the time they didn't want to add a pick because they were so important so they ended up with 8 years of dead cap space instead of 4 yrs at a lesser cost cap hit of 3.5 mil.
They probably could have traded him by adding one of those supposed priceless traded picks and retained only half of their obligation to his contract, 3.5 mil ending in 2026, instead they get a 2.3+ mil cap hit this year and 4.7+ mil cap hits the next 2 yrs followed by 4 yrs of 2+ mil.
But keeping the draft picks was so vitally important then, really?
What changed?

if your question is, was it worth it to spend so much assets to get us into a competitive window. The answer is yes. The only asset of value that was trade is like the 1st, 2nd and they are not even that big of a loss considering we finished quite high and the 1st is like a 28th OA.

I think a big part that you have omitted in the return section is how much cap that freed up that allowed us to add all the players that we have added and setting up the culture that should take us into contender space. If we end up contending for the next 3-5 years (ending up in round 2, 3, finals), would it upset anyone that we trade away every single 1st,2nd,3rd rounder in the next 3 years, f*** no.

 

[rypper]

If we end up contending for the next 3-5 years (ending up in round 2, 3, finals), would it upset anyone that we trade away every single 1st,2nd,3rd rounder in the next 3 years, f*** no.

I can predict one poster who will still be hung up over trading Kuzmenko.

 

[AlainVigneaultsGum]

I can predict one poster who will still be hung up over trading Kuzmenko.

Still missing that fifth we gave up for Lafferty tbh.

 

[tantalum]

if your question is, was it worth it to spend so much assets to get us into a competitive window. The answer is yes. The only asset of value that was trade is like the 1st, 2nd and they are not even that big of a loss considering we finished quite high and the 1st is like a 28th OA.

I think a big part that you have omitted in the return section is how much cap that freed up that allowed us to add all the players that we have added and setting up the culture that should take us into contender space. If we end up contending for the next 3-5 years (ending up in round 2, 3, finals), would it upset anyone that we trade away every single 1st,2nd,3rd rounder in the next 3 years, f*** no.

It's not just to get in to the window but the canucks had a reasonable chance at a playoff run. They were buyers. Buyers don't typically win deadline/near deadline deals. Unless they win the cup.

But mainly I don't understand the thesis that this discussion was started on. Plenty of people evaluate and criticize/approve trades. I don't really recall anyone just accepting any deal as a good deal by Alvin/Rutherford because they made it. Nor, it should be pointed out, did anyone just say a deal was bad because Benning made it. This is a pretty good board for discussing the merits of individual moves. We all have our blind spots and hills to die on but in general it's pretty even keeled.

 

[RobsonStreet]

thanks for illustrating for me

when even the mildest criticism is shut down with "this has very obviously been one of the best-run organizations in the NHL" it's pointless to ever be critical if you expect any kind of discussion

and i'm just pointing out why there's no substantive discussion of management, not trying to convince you or anyone else they are actually bad

Imagining your internal world as complex and other people’s internal worlds as simple is a choice.

If it were easy to shut down debate using rhetoric, either the pro or anti Benning folks would have shouted the other out of the room. That’s not what happened.

What I see now seems more like a fanbase holding a majority opinion with a couple people on social media trying to position themselves as smarter than everyone.