Management Discussion | You can’t handle the Rebuild!

[racerjoe]

He's being paid as a centre, not a winger. We all know that he's much more of a winger.

Debatable, I say that as when I thought he would be a centre, the easiest comparable Zibanejad is paid 8.5 mil and I believe had an extra year.

 

[Just A Bit Outside]

Miller should never have been offered a contract.

Full stop.

Last year was a complete outlier and he’s a headcase.

They should have open dialog with his agent to state as such.

Thus a trade, at this years TDL at the latest, should have been the intention.

As for Horvat, you still present an offer or two but only one that works for the team going forward. If not, it’s where we are at now with trading him by the deadline.

The keys should have been handed to EP but I understand some reservation in the summer when last year was a mixed bag (for many a reason).

But you give yourself flexibility and don’t back yourself into a corner.

But mgmt got bamboozled by this teams run under BB much like previous mgmt got bamboozled by the bubble.

Neither could see what this team really is and doubled down.

Now they are f***ed and can’t get out of it unless they trade a shit ton of picks, take on other shitty contracts or just pray to god this team somehow turns around.

 

[TruGr1t]

I can't bite on the idea going into the season with Miller not under contract was even a realistic option. I can't think of very many people who even discussed that as a reasonable option. They should have traded him for whatever they could get, but I can't fault management for not having the hindsight vision to go into this season with both Miller and Horvat, not under contract. That was pretty much uniformly viewed as a bad idea in the summer.

I mean, it would have looked like a great idea now, but it would have been insanely risky.

 

[BrentSopelsHair]

Henderson hit the nail on the head here. Blaming the fans and media is a strawman, ownership and management built this problem from the ground-up.

Love it when total morons from outside of Vancouver chime in with "Oh it's a volatile market, players won't want to play there", conveniently forgetting that this market has been served dogshit by this franchise for a decade without any indication that that is going to slow or stop in the coming future. How compliant and submissive are we supposed to be?

Players from the 1994 and 2011 teams are basically deified in the market, and I am pretty sure that EP is the most popular person in Canada west of the Rockies.

We've been an easy target for a long time with a loud fanbase and a shit team, but saying that players are poorly treated in Vancouver is not correct. They are treated the same way that stars are in other leagues like the NBA or the Premier League, where fans are informed and expect the best, and will let players hear it if they're being shits. They re abnormal for the NHL, where there's a bizarrely antiquated and ridiculous expectation of some form of "decorum", which essentially translates to "don't criticize anyone ever who is employed by a team, unless they are trying anything new"

 

[Knight53]

What a f***ing disaster of a management team. Clownshow

 

[Bgav]

For what its worth, I think Miller is paid for being a PPG player not a 99 point season.

Not to say we should have signed him, or we didnt cave or anything like that, just looking at scorers and stats, he is paid as a PPG player.

PPG Wingers that aren't good defensively don't get paid that much money.

 

[gringo]

They want to blame fans for having some sort of standard of what we want to see in terms of on ice product?

The media blamed fans for the “bad treatment” of Benning too.

The media is part of the problem. Gaslighters all of them.

 

[Just A Bit Outside]

Vancouver is a volatile market?

f*** you we are!

Ok, maybe we are.

 

[Diogenes92]

I can't bite on the idea going into the season with Miller not under contract was even a realistic option. I can't think of very many people who even discussed that as a reasonable option. They should have traded him for whatever they could get, but I can't fault management for not having the hindsight vision to go into this season with both Miller and Horvat, not under contract. That was pretty much uniformly viewed as a bad idea in the summer.

I mean, it would have looked like a great idea now, but it would have been insanely risky.

Why would it be risky? It was necessary.

Retain 50% on both of those contracts at the deadline and you get a king's ransom. It's like a combined 5mil cap hit for 2 first line players.

It would've been the perfect start to a rebuild or possibly sped it up into a retool with all of the assets aquired.

 

[racerjoe]

PPG Wingers that aren't good defensively don't get paid that much money.

I would ask you to show your work.

If the next season were to start today, JT would be the 40th highest paid Forward, I would imagine he ends up in the mid 40's once Kane, Pasternak and a few others sign.

 

[Frankie Blueberries]

PPG Wingers that aren't good defensively don't get paid that much money.

Gaudreau got just shy of $10 mill when he was a career PPG player. I recognize Gaudreau is a more talented player than Miller, but that would explain the $2 mill difference in cap hits.

 

[rypper]

If vancouver is a "volatile" market it's not because it hasn't been earned. 8 years of a complete directionless idiot running the team will do that.

 

[me2]

I would ask you to show your work.

If the next season were to start today, JT would be the 40th highest paid Forward, I would imagine he ends up in the mid 40's once Kane, Pasternak and a few others sign.

What about in 6 years time?

 

[racerjoe]

What about in 6 years time?

Where will the cap be then? I think he will be much lower than 40th that is for sure. Hell I think there is a very good chance Bo passes him on that list.

I didn't want to sign him, but I think some of the narrative is just false.

 

[timw33]

Volatile market kinda feels like "fans won't accept losing! they can't handle a rebuild!" when in reality it's volatile because of the decade of directionless failing and shit product being shovelled down our throats and saying "this team is actually really close you're asking for too much this takes time!"

 

[sting101]

THIS IS NOT A VOLATILE MARKET??

In all seriousness that's not an excuse and were not bad we just want something to get behind and keep getting served up bad teams with bad ownership lies and poor work ethics

People are frustrated because we have talent have had plenty of time yet were still a fuxxing mess

 

[arttk]

PPG Wingers that aren't good defensively don't get paid that much money.

List of wingers that makes 7+
Connor - 7.1
Keller - 7.15
Tarasenko - 7.5
Svechnikov - 7.75
Robertson- 7.75
Fiala - 7.875
Johansen - 8
Voracek - 8.25
Wheeler - 8.25
Stamkos - 8.5
Forsberg - 8.5
Liane - 8.7
Kaprizov - 9
Skinner - 9
Rantanen - 9.25
Stone - 9.5
Tkachuk - 9.5
Kucherov - 9.5
Ovi - 9.5
Gaudreau - 9.75
Kane - 10.5
Marner - 10.9
Panarin - 11.6

Caveat being that Connor, Keller, svechnikov, Robertson all signed after the ELC?

I guess considering the same factors, the real comparable are Skinner, Gaudreau, Stone, Kaprizov, Forsberg, Wheeler and Fiala. So Miller is paid between Fiala and Wheeler, seems to be pretty fair.

 

[m9]

Exactly......chisel off when you're not good and add when you're legit

It's just so simple. I can talk myself into Andrew Alberts for a 3rd if we're going on a playoff run and he can upgrade the 7/8. If we're a legit top team/contender I'll go on the ride and pay the bill later. Just don't piss away picks/prospects because you need warm bodies to make sure you come in 19th overall instead of 23rd.

Arguing about the value of these depth pieces vs the acquisition cost just misses the point completely. Not to say it isn't an interesting discussion.. but it needs to be framed within the context of the timing for all of these moves. Why are we buying at the deadline? Or buying cap space in the pre-season? We shouldn't be.

 

[AwesomeInTheory]

Vancouver is a volatile market?

f*** you we are!

Ok, maybe we are.

No more than, say, Edmonton (see Pronger claiming fans broke into his family's house and the whole fallout from that to present day), Toronto (Simmons & his hot dog fables, numerous players getting put to the screws by media/fans alike, eg, Bryan McCabe for just ONE example or JFJ getting dragged, Nonis getting dragged, Dubas getting dragged, etc.), Montreal (do I need to say ANYTHING here? From the 'Subbinators' to, well, that should be enough...)

Like, come the f*** on this is a uniquely Vancouver thing.

 

[F A N]

Pedan was not showing well and wasn’t improving, other prospects in the isles system was climbing past him.

Leivo, Dickinson are also different cases. Leivo was good for us and then he had that catastrophic injury that nuked his mobility. Dickinson is a NHL player who is horribly overplayed because Benning misidentified him as a defensive center when he’s just a winger.

Pedan was showing well post draft until the year we traded for him. I brought up Leivo because he was the type of acquisition that MS was using to differentiate current management's targets from Benning's. Dickinson, ironically, is playing the 3C role for Chicago, providing his usual defense, and oddly winning over 51% of his faceoffs. Regardless, he too was an acquisition that fit into the type of acquisition that MS was using to differentiate current management's targets from Benning's.

 

[sting101]

List of wingers that makes 7+
Connor - 7.1
Keller - 7.15
Tarasenko - 7.5
Svechnikov - 7.75
Robertson- 7.75
Fiala - 7.875
Johansen - 8
Voracek - 8.25
Wheeler - 8.25
Stamkos - 8.5
Forsberg - 8.5
Liane - 8.7
Kaprizov - 9
Skinner - 9
Rantanen - 9.25
Stone - 9.5
Tkachuk - 9.5
Kucherov - 9.5
Ovi - 9.5
Gaudreau - 9.75
Kane - 10.5
Marner - 10.9
Panarin - 11.6

Caveat being that Connor, Keller, svechnikov, Robertson all signed after the ELC?

I guess considering the same factors, the real comparable are Skinner, Gaudreau, Stone, Kaprizov, Forsberg, Wheeler and Fiala. So Miller is paid between Fiala and Wheeler, seems to be pretty fair.

Nothing wrong with Miller at 8million given his play for this team. Issue is term

 

[Bgav]

List of wingers that makes 7+
Connor - 7.1
Keller - 7.15
Tarasenko - 7.5
Svechnikov - 7.75
Robertson- 7.75
Fiala - 7.875
Johansen - 8
Voracek - 8.25
Wheeler - 8.25
Stamkos - 8.5
Forsberg - 8.5
Liane - 8.7
Kaprizov - 9
Skinner - 9
Rantanen - 9.25
Stone - 9.5
Tkachuk - 9.5
Kucherov - 9.5
Ovi - 9.5
Gaudreau - 9.75
Kane - 10.5
Marner - 10.9
Panarin - 11.6

Caveat being that Connor, Keller, svechnikov, Robertson all signed after the ELC?

I guess considering the same factors, the real comparable are Skinner, Gaudreau, Stone, Kaprizov, Forsberg, Wheeler and Fiala. So Miller is paid between Fiala and Wheeler, seems to be pretty fair.

Thanks for writing it out. I guess I shouldn't have said "don't get paid". Should have said shouldn't. I would take every player over Miller except for:

Johansen - 8
Voracek - 8.25
Wheeler - 8.25
Skinner - 9


The thing that pisses me off is this team isn't even close to being good. Even if you think he's worth the money, he's not worth it for the canucks

 

[arttk]

Nothing wrong with Miller at 8million given his play for this team. Issue is term

Totally agree with that, it’s almost guaranteed that he will not be worth it like 4 years into his extension.

I guess the question is, how many inefficient contracts can you have before it becomes a blocker for you to be a contender and also are there outs built into that contract so it makes it easier to trade around then.

 

[racerjoe]

Totally agree with that, it’s almost guaranteed that he will not be worth it like 4 years into his extension.

I guess the question is, how many inefficient contracts can you have before it becomes a blocker for you to be a contender and also are there outs built into that contract so it makes it easier to trade around then.

I am not sure about that. I didn't want to sign him, but if the cap does go way up over the next two years like it has been predicted, 8 mil may not be that high of a cap hit when he falls off.

 

[arttk]

Pedan was showing well post draft until the year we traded for him. I brought up Leivo because he was the type of acquisition that MS was using to differentiate current management's targets from Benning's. Dickinson, ironically, is playing the 3C role for Chicago, providing his usual defense, and oddly winning over 51% of his faceoffs. Regardless, he too was an acquisition that fit into the type of acquisition that MS was using to differentiate current management's targets from Benning's.

I mean Chicago is in full tank mode and is playing at a AHL team level. In that context, is Dickinson helping them tank as a center or he is actually performing in a competent way that hurts that tank. I am guessing that based on the state of the team, probably former?

Well Leivo was fine no? If it wasn’t for his knee injury at the end he probably could’ve played several seasons more.