Management Discussion | Pre-Season Approaching

[I Hart Conor Garland]

BAH GAWD, IS THAT LOUI ERIKSSON'S MUSIC???

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explanation s’il te plaît

 

[Ruthervin]

I'm not 'claiming this will be some sort of 07-08 phenomenon'. I'm lamenting lazy loser fan culture, and pointing out that most fans here today would have voted to tear down what ended up being the best team in franchise history before it even had a chance to happen.

When you look at the ages and talent on the roster, this team is in a *far* better position right now than that team was.

Good organizations generate player development over and above what is expected. This happened to the 2008-2012 Canucks. It happened to the 1995-2008 Red Wings. It's happening right now to the Florida Panthers, as an example. *That* should be the goal, not 'Oh noes, we have a bad RD situation on a young average team, I guess we just have to blow it up and lose for 5 years'.

I'm with you with regards to 'lazy loser fan culture' (which is why I was never fully on Team Tank during the Benning era), but you have to admit that there's something seriously wrong with this team. The team blowing multiple goal leads in 5 straight games + Miller/Schenn-Burroughs altercation at the end of the 2nd last game = possible rotten core and significant lockerroom rift + strong likelihood towards leadership issues.

On paper, this team should be a 1st round playoff calibre team that will continue to trend upwards once they upgrade their D. That's where I had this team pegged before the start of the season. But unlike that 2007-2008 team,

1) We don't appear to have anything come up from the farm as we did back at that time. Are we going to see unexpected emergences from the likes of Bieksa, Kesler, Raymond, Hansen, etc. I can see Podkolzin on our current team doing that, but anyone else?

2) That 2007-2008 team was strong in the room in terms of camaraderie. You mention 07-08 but you might need to go back 10 years earlier..........because I'm starting to see 97-98 in terms of there being something seriously wrong in the room. Maybe 05-06 as well.

 

[Peter Griffin]

I'm not disagreeing that acquiring OEL was a bad decision. What I'm saying is that post 2020 bubble, Benning realized that this team needed a long term Edler replacement (i.e. a two-way horse, all-situations guy that could take on tough match-ups). Olli Juolevi clearly wasn't going to be that guy for us and so Benning doubled down on trying to acquire such a piece. But yes - OEL clearly wasn't going to be that guy unfortunately and that was a massive error on the part of our pro scouting.

Looking back on it, the Canucks, in my opinion, should have moved both Sutter and Baertschi to Arizona (with a 1st round pick or more), and used that cap space to re-sign Markstrom, Tanev, and Toffoli. Buyout Virtanen if they needed more cap space.

Then, a year later, go HARD after the Edler replacement with Beagle, Eriksson, and Roussel off the books (in my original plan, I probably would have made the mistake at throwing the kitchen sink at Dougie Hamilton but that is who I would have targeted at the time. Or, make a deal with Edmonton for Adam Larsson).

Benning had to make that trade as one last hail mary to try and save his ass. For some reason he still viewed OEL as the Norris-calibre defenseman of his early Phoenix days.

 

[Peter Griffin]

Agreed. My only thing with keeping Demko over Markstrom, is that it would have been a bit risky to give Demko "the car keys" without consider the fact Demko's 3 game bubble stretch might have been just a hot streak. Hence, if management was going to proceed forward with Demko, they would need to proceed with him as a '1b' for a short time just to make sure that he was legit. Hence, the signing of another '1B' goalie in Braden Holtby (followed by Jaroslav Halak). It just ultimately lead to unnecessary over investment in our '1b' back-up goaltenders (which ultimately contributed to us walking away from Tanev and Toffoli).

In retrospect, we might have just been better off going with Markstrom, trading Demko for a 1st, and signing some poo-face 750K as a back-up.

-Move Baertschi and Sutter to Arizona with a 1st rounder (plus?) as a sweetener
-Recoup that first by moving Demko to another team
-Buyout Virtanen if necessary to increase cap space
-Sign Markstrom, Tanev, and Toffoli
-Sign poo-face back-up goalie to Markstrom for less than a million.

They didn’t even have to buy Virtanen out, just don’t sign him to the contract. In fact, if Benning had chosen to go with Tanev/Toffoli he probably could’ve dealt Virtanen for a decent piece at the time.

 

[sandwichbird2023]

I'm with you with regards to 'lazy loser fan culture' (which is why I was never fully on Team Tank during the Benning era), but you have to admit that there's something seriously wrong with this team. The team blowing multiple goal leads in 5 straight games + Miller/Schenn-Burroughs altercation at the end of the 2nd last game = possible rotten core and significant lockerroom rift + strong likelihood towards leadership issues.

On paper, this team should be a 1st round playoff calibre team that will continue to trend upwards once they upgrade their D. That's where I had this team pegged before the start of the season. But unlike that 2007-2008 team,

1) We don't appear to have anything come up from the farm as we did back at that time. Are we going to see unexpected emergences from the likes of Bieksa, Kesler, Raymond, Hansen, etc. I can see Podkolzin on our current team doing that, but anyone else?

2) That 2007-2008 team was strong in the room in terms of camaraderie. You mention 07-08 but you might need to go back 10 years earlier..........because I'm starting to see 97-98 in terms of there being something seriously wrong in the room. Maybe 05-06 as well.

The weird thing about using the 2007-08 team as a comparable is that, a couple years prior to that, ALL of Bieksa, Raymond and Hansen were long shot at best, and Kesler was still "stone hands" pegged for a 3rd liner. Burrows was a couple years removed from being a 23 year old ECHL'er. Even now we acknowledge how, each of them individually, far overachieved what was reasonably expected of them, and for ALL of them to hit the peak they hit, was pretty much the odds of winning Lotto Max.

Now, it is "lazy loser fan culture" for not expecting the longest of long shot to happen again? Who's our nowadays Bieksa, Woo? 2nd round pick Klimovich is our new former 2nd round pick Raymond? Podkolzin will be a 40 goal Selke winner center? Which former ECHL'er will be our 30 goals Burrows? The odds is so stack against a repeat of those development that calling out people for not building the team based on those odds as "lazy loser fan" seems ridiculous.

 

[AwesomeInTheory]

Benning had to make that trade as one last hail mary to try and save his ass. For some reason he still viewed OEL as the Norris-calibre defenseman of his early Phoenix days.

Yep. I won’t ever tire of bringing up that radio interview he did where he seemed almost gleeful over landing OEL, proclaiming him to be a perpetual Norris candidate…if only he played out East.

He was firmly convinced he landed a major coup and had a superstar defender for nothing. Trying to whitewash this as “well he needed someone who could play at Edler’s level” is revisionist.

 

[Ruthervin]

Yep. I won’t ever tire of bringing up that radio interview he did where he seemed almost gleeful over landing OEL, proclaiming him to be a perpetual Norris candidate…if only he played out East.

He was firmly convinced he landed a major coup and had a superstar defender for nothing. Trying to whitewash this as “well he needed someone who could play at Edler’s level” is revisionist.

I'll say one thing in *possible* defense of OEL..........he's been hitched to Myers ever since he's landed here. Perhaps with a better partner, he'd be more effective?

 

[F A N]

They didn’t even have to buy Virtanen out, just don’t sign him to the contract. In fact, if Benning had chosen to go with Tanev/Toffoli he probably could’ve dealt Virtanen for a decent piece at the time.

Yep. I won’t ever tire of bringing up that radio interview he did where he seemed almost gleeful over landing OEL, proclaiming him to be a perpetual Norris candidate…if only he played out East.

He was firmly convinced he landed a major coup and had a superstar defender for nothing. Trying to whitewash this as “well he needed someone who could play at Edler’s level” is revisionist.

I missed the radio interview, did Benning say that OEL would have been a perpetual Norris trophy in the past had he played out east or going forward? At his best, OEL was definitely a legit Norris contender.

Only thing I read was Benning saying OEL would be the team's #1 Dman (not true with Hughes), be a matchup Dman freeing Hughes to not match up against other team's top line (true), play on the PP and PK and be a matchup Dman (true).

OEL had a good season defensively. If the team didn't have Hughes, OEL probably would have his usual 10+ goals 40+ points. I think people underestimate how good OEL was last season and how good Hughes is. It's like if you're Bernie Nicholls playing behind Gretzky, you often go underappreciated.

 

[RobertKron]

Businesses don’t make cuts to both staff and inventory in bad times? Have you ever run a business? Wow!

Imagine being a “business man”- getting routed by competition for 7 years straight with a crumbling market base and literally no hope for recovery in the next few years and being like “steady as she goes, mates”! Absolutely challenged shit right here.

What the f*** are you on about? The point is that the goal of the business isn't necessarily to build a cup winner above all else.

 

[AwesomeInTheory]

I missed the radio interview, did Benning say that OEL would have been a perpetual Norris trophy in the past had he played out east or going forward? At his best, OEL was definitely a legit Norris contender.

Only thing I read was Benning saying OEL would be the team's #1 Dman (not true with Hughes), be a matchup Dman freeing Hughes to not match up against other team's top line (true), play on the PP and PK and be a matchup Dman (true).

OEL had a good season defensively. If the team didn't have Hughes, OEL probably would have his usual 10+ goals 40+ points. I think people underestimate how good OEL was last season and how good Hughes is. It's like if you're Bernie Nicholls playing behind Gretzky, you often go underappreciated.

You can dig through my post history, as I’m pretty sure I quoted it verbatim, but he said that he “wasn’t sure what happened” the last 2 years, but if he were playing out East he’d be a Norris trophy candidate. Not like 5-6 years ago, but as of now. It was clear from what he was saying in the interview that he thought he landed a big fish.

I might go digging myself tomorrow. I’m pretty sure it was the initial trade thread. Wish I archived shit like Wetcoaster used to, haha.

 

[gringo]

What the f*** are you on about? The point is that the goal of the business isn't necessarily to build a cup winner above all else.

All the biggest and most marketable sports franchises in North America have won. What are you talking about? I can’t believe some of the pure smoke I read on this site! I guess there’s big money in being the 60 year punching bag of the nhl

 

[I Hart Conor Garland]

What the f*** are you on about? The point is that the goal of the business isn't necessarily to build a cup winner above all else.

This is quite likely it. The Cup isn’t a priority. Yeah, father of the year got all giddy and puffed his chest out ten sizes when he thought it was gonna happen. But it’s just possible gravy on top of printing money off of the backs of idiots who blindly support.

 

[RobertKron]

All the biggest and most marketable sports franchises in North America have won. What are you talking about? I can’t believe some of the pure smoke I read on this site! I guess there’s big money in being the 60 year punching bag of the nhl

Again: The goal of the franchise isn't necessarily to build a cup winner above all else. This really isn't complicated.

Also, yes, obviously there is big money in that.

 

[RobertKron]

This is quite likely it. The Cup isn’t a priority. Yeah, father of the year got all giddy and puffed his chest out ten sizes when he thought it was gonna happen. But it’s just possible gravy on top of printing money off of the backs of idiots who blindly support.

It doesn't even have to be that. The team has been a clown show for howevermany years. The fanbase is losing and/or has lost interest. The franchise value has slipped. It's not really outlandish to imagine that they would aim to stabilize things even if if means sacrificing some potential highs.

 

[I Hart Conor Garland]

It doesn't even have to be that. The team has been a clown show for howevermany years. The fanbase is losing and/or has lost interest. The franchise value has slipped. It's not really outlandish to imagine that they would aim to stabilize things even if if means sacrificing some potential highs.

fair

related-

the thing daddy dearest doesn’t realize is he would be absolutely f***ing deified in this province were he to be smart enough to make astute hires and get out of the way on the road to a championship

 

[Slapshot_11]

Everybody wanted miller traded and our clown management signs him for 8 years

I legit think Benning woulda done something, maybe not better but he would've made moves

 

[I Hart Conor Garland]

Everybody wanted miller traded and our clown management signs him for 8 years

I legit think Benning woulda done something, maybe not better but he would've made moves

I am honestly starting to wonder if Benning is better entertainment than the new group. Like oh wow they’re smarter and don’t do hilarious shit. Yay. Neither group is gonna win it all under FOTY.(father of the year)

 

[Billy Kvcmu]

Ok so. are people blaming the new management or the ownership
Yes the Boeser and Miller contracts both look terrible rn, but part of me think that it doesnt matter who are in charged, as long as the owner remains the same, Boeser and Miller were never going to be traded
It is a tunnel without an end

 

[IslandBeast]

Rinse and repeat. Bums

 

[gringo]

Hey JR

 

[mriswith]

Ok so. are people blaming the new management or the ownership
Yes the Boeser and Miller contracts both look terrible rn, but part of me think that it doesnt matter who are in charged, as long as the owner remains the same, Boeser and Miller were never going to be traded
It is a tunnel without an end

I mostly blame new management.

They should not be scared of the owner in year 1 where the team was bad enough to get the entire front office fired and the owner flew out and begged the president to take over.

Somehow they mis-evaluated where the team was at, and/or they are so scared and conservative that they won't make necessary moves and that's on them.

The owner is always at fault, always a problem, and always deserves blame, but it's an obstacle that should both have been foreseen and not a significant factor in year 1.

 

[Bourne Endeavor]

Yep. I won’t ever tire of bringing up that radio interview he did where he seemed almost gleeful over landing OEL, proclaiming him to be a perpetual Norris candidate…if only he played out East.

He was firmly convinced he landed a major coup and had a superstar defender for nothing. Trying to whitewash this as “well he needed someone who could play at Edler’s level” is revisionist.

“We think he’s going to be our number one defenceman,” said Benning in a call with the media after the trade.

“Quinn will be better for us acquiring Ekman-Larsson, because he can play now in a different kind of role,”

“He’ll be a top-pairing guy, can play a lot of minutes, PP, PK, can be a match-up guy playing against the other team’s top lines,” said Benning.

"He's competitive in his own end."

“He’s a smart two-way player, right,” said Benning. “He’s a guy who can carry the puck up ice, he’s got a great shot from the blue line, but he’s competitive in his own end. We’re excited to get him because he plays against the best players in the league.”

“He’s still 30 years old, so I think he’s gonna have another five, six good years left in him,” said Benning.

How this man had a job for eight years will forever remain one of life's greatest mysteries.

 

[Melvin]

I mostly blame new management.

They should not be scared of the owner in year 1 where the team was bad enough to get the entire front office fired and the owner flew out and begged the president to take over.

Somehow they mis-evaluated where the team was at, and/or they are so scared and conservative that they won't make necessary moves and that's on them.

The owner is always at fault, always a problem, and always deserves blame, but it's an obstacle that should both have been foreseen and not a significant factor in year 1.

It's weird though.

Everything they said in every interview seemed to indicate that their evaluation was on point. And Jim Rutherford is not someone who has had a reputation for being afraid to make moves, far from it.

So what the hell happened?

With Benning, it was quite clear that he was just incompetent. He would walk up to the mic, say "I am about to do something very stupid," then he would do something very stupid.

With this group, I don't know what's going on.

I don't understand how months of interviews downplaying the success of the team last year, not wanting to give Boudreau an extension, not buying into the hype, saying that the defense is bad and they rely on the goalie too much etc. etc. and then just ... no action.

Like you said, you'd have to believe that Aquilini wouldn't have just shut them down at this early juncture. And yet...? I don't know. I really don't get it.

 

[canucksfan]

“We think he’s going to be our number one defenceman,” said Benning in a call with the media after the trade.

“Quinn will be better for us acquiring Ekman-Larsson, because he can play now in a different kind of role,”

“He’ll be a top-pairing guy, can play a lot of minutes, PP, PK, can be a match-up guy playing against the other team’s top lines,” said Benning.

"He's competitive in his own end."

“He’s a smart two-way player, right,” said Benning. “He’s a guy who can carry the puck up ice, he’s got a great shot from the blue line, but he’s competitive in his own end. We’re excited to get him because he plays against the best players in the league.”

“He’s still 30 years old, so I think he’s gonna have another five, six good years left in him,” said Benning.

How this man had a job for eight years will forever remain one of life's greatest mysteries.

He would be under qualified being a Wal Mart greeter.

 

[mriswith]

It's weird though.

Everything they said in every interview seemed to indicate that their evaluation was on point. And Jim Rutherford is not someone who has had a reputation for being afraid to make moves, far from it.

So what the hell happened?

When he said he was turning down trade calls until x date, I forget exactly when, I think some road trip in February, I lost a lot of hope that he understood where the team was at. That quote made no sense if his intent was to sell major pieces.

If he's being blocked by Aqua from making major changes, it's over for this franchise until Aqua sells the team. But I don't get why JR would accept that at this stage in his career.