Management Discussion | Pre-Season Approaching

[4Twenty]

This thread: “My dad can beat up your dad”

1. Let’s set it up for tomorrow even though they are both bed ridden.

2. Let’s set it up 5 years from now and see if they are better

1. Lazy loser nonsense.

2. But 92 points.

 

[gringo]

It took them 11 years of no post season to acquire 2 young elite D men (and additions)..Yikes.

The Sabres would be going to year 12 of no post season this season, but I think they'll make it,

Colorado and Edmonton both spent close to a decade being terrible, and getting multiple opportunities tp pick in the top 3.

Maybe thats what you have to do in the modern NHL to get your franchise players...?

We are getting close! 6 years straight of bottom barrel terrible hockey. What’s 4 more at this point?

 

[gringo]

1. People continue to ignore that this is a business and no ownership group would ever sign off on this plan for a team in our position. As I've said before, it's about as grounded in reality as 'We should trade for McDavid!' as a plan.

2. Keeping those guys, you probably don't bottom out with top-3 picks. You draft 9th or 11th for a couple years, burn through their primes without even trying to compete, and then you're basically doing the full rebuild at the same time anyways.

Many businesses cut deep in times of little success in preparation for better markets. That’s exactly what the canucks should be doing.

You're kind of ignoring that this is a business.

Businesses don’t make cuts to both staff and inventory in bad times? Have you ever run a business? Wow!

Imagine being a “business man”- getting routed by competition for 7 years straight with a crumbling market base and literally no hope for recovery in the next few years and being like “steady as she goes, mates”! Absolutely challenged shit right here.

 

[gringo]

Let me give you “business men” some advice to keep you afloat. If you’re an actual business man in turbulent waters where you have been routed by competition for 7 years straight - you make cuts you get lean and you plan for the future. Period. You do NOT bury your head in the sand and keep plowing. f*** it’s like I’m talking to a bunch of Francesco Aquilini’s in here.

 

[mriswith]

Your proposal was being a bottom-5 team for the next two years which coupled with coming out of that period basically burns through the window of our current core. Unless you think we go magically from bottom-5 to Cup contender in one year?

If you’re talking about getting high lottery picks, you aren’t somehow magically doing that and then magically competing again in less than 4 years.

I like my plan better than any alternative and I think you underestimate the impact that the cap has on where teams finish in the standings.

But in lieu of my idea, simply not committing to the UFA aged players would have been better than what we've got. Pettersson and Hughes are 23, Demko is 26, and yet now the OEL and Miller contracts have put us on a clock to contend and we'll probably double down again with an 8 year Horvat contract.

The real core guys are 23 and maybe 26 and yet posters on our board are filled with desperation fantasy trades like trying to figure out how to acquire Seth Jones because everyone understands the window to open a window is now very small. Meanwhile a team like Carolina simply lets their high end non-core UFA players walk with no ill effects.

 

[SeawaterOnIce]

Let me give you “business men” some advice to keep you afloat. If you’re an actual business man in turbulent waters where you have been routed by competition for 7 years straight - you make cuts you get lean and you plan for the future. Period. You do NOT bury your head in the sand and keep plowing. f*** it’s like I’m talking to a bunch of Francesco Aquilini’s in here.

An actual business run by AquaBenning would have been forced into bankruptcy. Stupid luck and gross corruption is why Aquilini continues to generate wealth and why he continues to dick around with the franchise.

 

[krutovsdonut]

We are getting close! 6 years straight of bottom barrel terrible hockey. What’s 4 more at this point?

this is unfortunately true. we are at a real low here with the way this season has opened. i have not experienced this degree of repeat hopeless futility since the 1980s when for several years i did not expect the canucks either to compete or progress towards competing, and there were multiple teams in the league i did not believe they could beat no matter how hard they played except by fluke. it really tests your faith. i will have to totally adjust my approach as a fan to weather it if this is where we are again. back to appreciating the very fine details. foresake cup dreams for less lofty goals.

previously, the worst era of canuck history was between may 16, 1982 and march 5, 1991, but it did not really truly end until november 5, 1991 when the clouds abruptly parted. so roughly 9 years of mostly solid shit. you could argue it ran much further back than that, but that 82 run cured a lot for fans and fan expectations were perpetually low enough then that i think we just were not as disappointed by disaster as we are now.

the current era of futility began, at the latest, on april 12, 2015. as with 82 as a date, you can argue it started earlier, but the last date i can see is now 6 and half years ago. for me it was the fall of 2011 when i concluded the sedin core would not compete for the cup again without major changes and then waited in vain for those to happen.

we now find ourselves staring at an abyss. if this core cannot compete then the cap means we are in a full blown catastrophe. or maybe we are in the purgatory dallas lived in for years where you neither completely suck nor actually contend.

i don't quite believe it yet, but there is a sense of doom and futility slowly creeping into my game day thoughts that i have not felt since the heyday of willie d.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

this is unfortunately true. we are at a real low here with the way this season has opened. i have not experienced this degree of repeat hopeless futility since the 1980s when for several years i did not expect the canucks either to compete or progress towards competing, and there were multiple teams in the league i did not believe they could beat no matter how hard they played except by fluke. it really tests your faith. i will have to totally adjust my approach as a fan to weather it if this is where we are again. back to appreciating the very fine details. foresake cup dreams for less lofty goals.

previously, the worst era of canuck history was between may 16, 1982 and march 5, 1991, but it did not really truly end until november 5, 1991 when the clouds abruptly parted. so roughly 9 years of mostly solid shit. you could argue it ran much further back than that, but that 82 run cured a lot for fans and fan expectations were perpetually low enough then that i think we just were not as disappointed by disaster as we are now.

the current era of futility began, at the latest, on april 12, 2015. as with 82 as a date, you can argue it started earlier, but the last date i can see is now 6 and half years ago. for me it was the fall of 2011 when i concluded the sedin core would not compete for the cup again without major changes and then waited in vain for those to happen.

we now find ourselves staring at an abyss. if this core cannot compete then the cap means we are in a full blown catastrophe. or maybe we are in the purgatory dallas lived in for years where you neither completely suck nor actually contend.

i don't quite believe it yet, but there is a sense of doom and futility slowly creeping into my game day thoughts that i have not felt since the heyday of willie d.

 

[theguardianII]

Broadly agree, but wouldn't do retention where it's not necessary, and also wouldn't do multi-year retention.

Horvat with retention should get us a haul from a contender.

Garland isn't negative value, would let him play out the year and if he does well then should probably get a return without having to do retention or add, especially with the rising cap. Even if not, we'll have to have some players to hold down roster spots and provide a framework for all the young players we're going to bring in, with Garland's drive and compeitiveness he's not the worst for that.

Boeser either has to raise his game which I think he would and then I think there'd be a team that would take him, maybe not at good value but I wouldn't add futures to her and wouldn't retain anything.

Miller is harder, yeah, might be hard to move him, and might just need to hold on to him, same with OEL, wouln't retain over that time period. Would rather sign one-year rentals that we retain and auction at TDL each year.

Using retention is a multi fold idea,
one is getting more cap space
getting better returns, players/prospects/draft picks
changing the room, losing culture
keeping more players closer in age group
open up roster/contract slots
add flexibility
reduce the number of years for rebuild.

What is the difference if, lets say they did get Bedard and had Miller's 3 mil retention, the first 3 years Bedard is paid 3 mil and Millet's retention is 3 mil so that roster spot is paid 6 mil. BUT instead of Miller there is Bedard for less money. Instead of a 33 yr old Miller there is a 21 yr old Bedard and three years of cap increases. Bedard was use as an example but there are many others that could be named.

Boeser the same.

Sure it ties their hands for 2 years using retention, they would still have one spot left but they aren't using it now due to being capped out, this gives them at least another 5 mil in cap space and they don't need cap space now to do it.

If they got a first for Horvat, Miller and Boeser that is like three additional years of rebuilding in one year.

They would still have space for the sign and trade at the TDL, one retention spot left and Petey, Quinn and Demko with Podz, Hog and all the current young guys. It would not fix the current defence mess but then the focus is on rebuilding not winning a playoff spot. That allows the remaining players to just play and have fun changing the room. Myers, Schenn and OEL act as mentors/coaches, they are all perfect for the job as none were promoted as stars here, just paid like it.
Schenn and Myers could be TDL candidates too. Myers will be a hot commodity being huge, right handed and a 20+ minute guy that can play with anyone and the same with Schenn.

In this year they could change the entire dynamic of the team, help rid the losing culture, pass the torch to Petey.

I would mean that this year and next they might struggle but then they are doing that now with players that really want to win now but aren't which disturbs the "room"

Each retained salary is replaced with a smaller cap hit, younger player and savings. The team still has a retention spot for future deals and a solid plan.

Are they going to lose more than now, not likely.

So, cap space, TIME, room dynamic, age group, reduced pressure, a plan to follow

 

[Jyrki21]

If they just could have sacked Benning just before he traded for Miller, things might look a lot different in Canuck-land.

But Miller left for a first rounder; and Tofoli for a second. Then a first and a second were expended for OEL and Garland. And all the Canucks really accomplished was jettisoning three contracts that only had one year to go anyway.

So two first rounders; two second rounders flushed.....but I guess Benning was desperate and the owner let him do it.

Similarly, if the Canucks had gotten off to a terrible start in 2019-20 rather than each of the next three years, as they have, we might have avoided a world of pain.

 

[theguardianII]

this is unfortunately true. we are at a real low here with the way this season has opened. i have not experienced this degree of repeat hopeless futility since the 1980s when for several years i did not expect the canucks either to compete or progress towards competing, and there were multiple teams in the league i did not believe they could beat no matter how hard they played except by fluke. it really tests your faith. i will have to totally adjust my approach as a fan to weather it if this is where we are again. back to appreciating the very fine details. foresake cup dreams for less lofty goals.

previously, the worst era of canuck history was between may 16, 1982 and march 5, 1991, but it did not really truly end until november 5, 1991 when the clouds abruptly parted. so roughly 9 years of mostly solid shit. you could argue it ran much further back than that, but that 82 run cured a lot for fans and fan expectations were perpetually low enough then that i think we just were not as disappointed by disaster as we are now.

the current era of futility began, at the latest, on april 12, 2015. as with 82 as a date, you can argue it started earlier, but the last date i can see is now 6 and half years ago. for me it was the fall of 2011 when i concluded the sedin core would not compete for the cup again without major changes and then waited in vain for those to happen.

we now find ourselves staring at an abyss. if this core cannot compete then the cap means we are in a full blown catastrophe. or maybe we are in the purgatory dallas lived in for years where you neither completely suck nor actually contend.

i don't quite believe it yet, but there is a sense of doom and futility slowly creeping into my game day thoughts that i have not felt since the heyday of willie d.

Benning is the worst GM by record on this team by far and very very close to the worst in NHL history for that period in time in almost every category but especially in the win/loss column and money wasted, drafting misses, two top 6 picks.
This team even under the new group is still on him until major changes are made.

When the coach and president both agree the product on the ice is not good and they don't know why a blow should be coming soon.

They can't fire Bruce because the whole league knows it is the team not the coach and he was able to get them to play once they had nothing to lose anymore and signed a daring deal to come here.
Besides the new group already decided on Yeo as his replacement. Why else hire another head coach?

 

[Hit the post]

this is unfortunately true. we are at a real low here with the way this season has opened. i have not experienced this degree of repeat hopeless futility since the 1980s when for several years i did not expect the canucks either to compete or progress towards competing, and there were multiple teams in the league i did not believe they could beat no matter how hard they played except by fluke. it really tests your faith. i will have to totally adjust my approach as a fan to weather it if this is where we are again. back to appreciating the very fine details. foresake cup dreams for less lofty goals.

previously, the worst era of canuck history was between may 16, 1982 and march 5, 1991, but it did not really truly end until november 5, 1991 when the clouds abruptly parted. so roughly 9 years of mostly solid shit. you could argue it ran much further back than that, but that 82 run cured a lot for fans and fan expectations were perpetually low enough then that i think we just were not as disappointed by disaster as we are now.

the current era of futility began, at the latest, on april 12, 2015. as with 82 as a date, you can argue it started earlier, but the last date i can see is now 6 and half years ago. for me it was the fall of 2011 when i concluded the sedin core would not compete for the cup again without major changes and then waited in vain for those to happen.

we now find ourselves staring at an abyss. if this core cannot compete then the cap means we are in a full blown catastrophe. or maybe we are in the purgatory dallas lived in for years where you neither completely suck nor actually contend.

i don't quite believe it yet, but there is a sense of doom and futility slowly creeping into my game day thoughts that i have not felt since the heyday of willie d.

Problem was in the 80s, there was no salary cap. Revenues weren't exactly 'rolling in' for the Canucks at the old Pacific Coliseum either. It didn't make for insurmountable obstacles but it make it far easier for other teams to not just attract new talent but keep it as well. I'd imagine the 'smaller budget' made for smaller scouting departments/runing farm clubs on the cheap, etc.,

 

[Aphid Attraction]

This thread: “My dad can beat up your dad”

1. Let’s set it up for tomorrow even though they are both bed ridden.

2. Let’s set it up 5 years from now and see if they are better

My dad can beat up your dad is a total child’s game. Have we not grown up since those days. I have kids of my own now. And you know what. My son could beat up your son.

 

[Just A Bit Outside]

Let me give you “business men” some advice to keep you afloat. If you’re an actual business man in turbulent waters where you have been routed by competition for 7 years straight - you make cuts you get lean and you plan for the future. Period. You do NOT bury your head in the sand and keep plowing. f*** it’s like I’m talking to a bunch of Francesco Aquilini’s in here.

My dad can beat up your dad is a total child’s game. Have we not grown up since those days. I have kids of my own now. And you know what. My son could beat up your son.

Well my son is 3.

And a girl.

So…

 

[Breakers]

Benning may have set this team bus in line with going over a cliff

But so far Alvin & Rutherford have cut the break lines and adjusted steering so we hit the most jagged rocks at the bottom of the cliff.

 

[Peen]

My theory with the Rachel Doerrie thing is the following. I have no proof so no stupid replies. I am 100% speculating. This was my guess when she departed and all of her twitter liking activity since then gives me this belief.

That whole role change thing happened right after the Miller contract came out. My guess is she didn’t agree with that and voiced it (rightfully or wrongfully due to her position is up to you). Who knows if it was Rutherford, Allvin, FAQ who primarily drove the boat on that one - either way, my assumption is they felt she overstepped and changed her role to be on the coaching side. Keep in mind she was in scouting meetings in July around the draft on the Canucks youtube channel so this was definitely sudden.

 

[drax0s]

I figure a month tops till a "shake things up" trade happens ... that doesn't really change much. Ideally it's Miller, since a 3-ish year turnaround is less likely with him on the roster, but more likely Garland or Boeser.

Hopefully that forces our hand to be active sellers at the deadline on <2 year contracts plus a winger or two. I doubt we're going go full scorched earth rebuild, but I think there is still a chance at a team (with some luck) built around Petey / Hughes and Demko (maybe?).

 

[4Twenty]

Tim and Friends carving up the Canucks…..


Ps this would’ve been year 5 of Linden’s 4 year non-Jay Beagle rebuild.

Trevor looks shinier as the days go by.

 

[sandwichbird2023]

1. People continue to ignore that this is a business and no ownership group would ever sign off on this plan for a team in our position. As I've said before, it's about as grounded in reality as 'We should trade for McDavid!' as a plan.

2. Keeping those guys, you probably don't bottom out with top-3 picks. You draft 9th or 11th for a couple years, burn through their primes without even trying to compete, and then you're basically doing the full rebuild at the same time anyways.

And that right there is the main reason this franchise has sucked, and will continue to suck, at both competing and rebuilding.
This is the same crap as "I can't walk into the room and tell the Sedins we are rebuilding" because clearly the happiness of 2-3 players are of greater importance than building a cup contender. The only difference is Hank and Danny were NHL superstars that won awards and gave it their all for the franchise for 15 years. Now we are applying the same courtesy to 2x 23 years old and a 2nd year starter goalie.

We have sucked for pretty much as long as EP and Hughes have been on the team, save for the 2 rounds bubble playoff and 50 games under Bruce. Might as well double down and build off this foundation with extensions to everybody. Brock gets one, Miller gets one, you are next Bo!

 

[me2]

Management are praying for Deus ex machina to fix the faults.

 

[MarkMM]

Using retention is a multi fold idea,
one is getting more cap space
getting better returns, players/prospects/draft picks
changing the room, losing culture
keeping more players closer in age group
open up roster/contract slots
add flexibility
reduce the number of years for rebuild.

What is the difference if, lets say they did get Bedard and had Miller's 3 mil retention, the first 3 years Bedard is paid 3 mil and Millet's retention is 3 mil so that roster spot is paid 6 mil. BUT instead of Miller there is Bedard for less money. Instead of a 33 yr old Miller there is a 21 yr old Bedard and three years of cap increases. Bedard was use as an example but there are many others that could be named.

Boeser the same.

Sure it ties their hands for 2 years using retention, they would still have one spot left but they aren't using it now due to being capped out, this gives them at least another 5 mil in cap space and they don't need cap space now to do it.

If they got a first for Horvat, Miller and Boeser that is like three additional years of rebuilding in one year.

They would still have space for the sign and trade at the TDL, one retention spot left and Petey, Quinn and Demko with Podz, Hog and all the current young guys. It would not fix the current defence mess but then the focus is on rebuilding not winning a playoff spot. That allows the remaining players to just play and have fun changing the room. Myers, Schenn and OEL act as mentors/coaches, they are all perfect for the job as none were promoted as stars here, just paid like it.
Schenn and Myers could be TDL candidates too. Myers will be a hot commodity being huge, right handed and a 20+ minute guy that can play with anyone and the same with Schenn.

In this year they could change the entire dynamic of the team, help rid the losing culture, pass the torch to Petey.

I would mean that this year and next they might struggle but then they are doing that now with players that really want to win now but aren't which disturbs the "room"

Each retained salary is replaced with a smaller cap hit, younger player and savings. The team still has a retention spot for future deals and a solid plan.

Are they going to lose more than now, not likely.

So, cap space, TIME, room dynamic, age group, reduced pressure, a plan to follow

Can you only retain for part of a contract? If so, that would be more interesting, I don't know where I heard it but I was under the impression that if you retain then you're committing to retain for the duration of the contract, and $3M for 7 years is a no-no for me.

 

[BrentSopelsHair]

Management are praying for Deus ex machina to fix the faults.

BAH GAWD, IS THAT LOUI ERIKSSON'S MUSIC???

 

[Ruthervin]

Bad take. Where are you getting this from? Other than trying to feed the narrative of defending an inarguably top 10 worst contract in the league. For his hit / term you better believe he’s expected to put up points as well as play solid defence.

I'm not disagreeing that acquiring OEL was a bad decision. What I'm saying is that post 2020 bubble, Benning realized that this team needed a long term Edler replacement (i.e. a two-way horse, all-situations guy that could take on tough match-ups). Olli Juolevi clearly wasn't going to be that guy for us and so Benning doubled down on trying to acquire such a piece. But yes - OEL clearly wasn't going to be that guy unfortunately and that was a massive error on the part of our pro scouting.

Looking back on it, the Canucks, in my opinion, should have moved both Sutter and Baertschi to Arizona (with a 1st round pick or more), and used that cap space to re-sign Markstrom, Tanev, and Toffoli. Buyout Virtanen if they needed more cap space.

Then, a year later, go HARD after the Edler replacement with Beagle, Eriksson, and Roussel off the books (in my original plan, I probably would have made the mistake at throwing the kitchen sink at Dougie Hamilton but that is who I would have targeted at the time. Or, make a deal with Edmonton for Adam Larsson).

 

[TruGr1t]

Looking back on it, the Canucks, in my opinion, should have moved both Sutter and Baertschi to Arizona (with a 1st round pick or more), and used that cap space to re-sign Markstrom, Tanev, and Toffoli. Buyout Virtanen if they needed more cap space.

Then, a year later, go HARD after the Edler replacement with Beagle, Eriksson, and Roussel off the books (in my original plan, I probably would have made the mistake at throwing the kitchen sink at Dougie Hamilton but that is who I would have targeted at the time. Or, make a deal with Edmonton for Adam Larsson).

I don’t think they really needed to keep Markstrom around with Demko, but the rest I high-level agree with.

It remains super odd how Tanev and Toffoli were forced out of town despite basically begging to stay here.

The OEL trade was indefensible and remains so, regardless of motivation.

That Tanev/Toffoli summer, the OEL deal, along with the recent Boeser/Miller contracts tanked this core’s window beyond repair.

 

[Ruthervin]

I don’t think they really needed to keep Markstrom around with Demko, but the rest I high-level agree with.

It remains super odd how Tanev and Toffoli were forced out of town despite basically begging to stay here.

The OEL trade was indefensible and remains so, regardless of motivation.

That Tanev/Toffoli summer, the OEL deal, along with the recent Boeser/Miller contracts tanked this core’s window beyond repair.

Agreed. My only thing with keeping Demko over Markstrom, is that it would have been a bit risky to give Demko "the car keys" without consider the fact Demko's 3 game bubble stretch might have been just a hot streak. Hence, if management was going to proceed forward with Demko, they would need to proceed with him as a '1b' for a short time just to make sure that he was legit. Hence, the signing of another '1B' goalie in Braden Holtby (followed by Jaroslav Halak). It just ultimately lead to unnecessary over investment in our '1b' back-up goaltenders (which ultimately contributed to us walking away from Tanev and Toffoli).

In retrospect, we might have just been better off going with Markstrom, trading Demko for a 1st, and signing some poo-face 750K as a back-up.

-Move Baertschi and Sutter to Arizona with a 1st rounder (plus?) as a sweetener
-Recoup that first by moving Demko to another team
-Buyout Virtanen if necessary to increase cap space
-Sign Markstrom, Tanev, and Toffoli
-Sign poo-face back-up goalie to Markstrom for less than a million.