Management Discussion | Pre-Season Approaching

[Tomatoes11]

Oilers have been a top team for the last couple years.

Buffalo lost their franchise player in Eichel, plus Reinhart wanted out. Buffalo is literally the template for what happens when you suck forever - your top talent is both poisoned and wants out.

Oilers were worse than us at one point dude and they still signed all their stars no problem. They didn’t lose anyone.

In fact, no one really does besides the weird occasions like Eichel‘s neck injury. Dahlin and power not going anywhere Like Brady Tkachuk and Hughes aren’t going anywhere even if the devils and sens have set backs. It’s super rare. Bank on it.

Eichel and Dubois. Who else? Tkachuk and Johnny midget wanted out but flames were contenders. No one leaves because the team doesn’t go all in.

 

[MS]

Oilers were worse than us at one point dude and they still signed all their stars no problem. They didn’t lose anyone.

In fact, no one really does besides the weird occasions like Eichel‘s neck injury. Dahlin and power not going anywhere Like Brady Tkachuk and Hughes aren’t going anywhere even if the devils and sens have set backs. It’s super rare.

Keeping McDavid at age 20 is not the same thing as keeping Elias Pettersson when he's in his mid-20s approaching UFA.

Eichel was making noise about wanting out for years before the back thing happened.

 

[Peen]

I really, really strongly oppose the notion that there is “no obvious weakness” with the forwards.

- They lack toughness
- Don’t think the lines have any real identity
- Imbalance in composition (lack of elite two way presences)
- Major depth problems. Two injuries means you are plugging in low ceiling, low floor players. Dakota Joshua and Linus Karlsson are our next guys up on the wing. Curtis Lazar or Jason dickinson become your third line centers if a center goes out.

Now there’s obviously a lot of scoring talent. They’ll run a top five PP and probably outscore their deficiencies, but I don’t want to do the hear no evil, see no evil thing.

 

[racerjoe]

If they're able to swing a Horvat for a solid RHD then this team suddenly looks balanced and affordable, especially if you can offload someone like Garland even just for futures or whatever.

Some nice growth from the likes of Podkolzin, Hoglander, Lekkerrimaki growing into something real, and we might not be a contender but it'll be a solid team. Still against the odds a bit to pull some impact players from the draft or swing some winning trades, but that's the best route to be put on a path to have a decent team that you can start adding pieces to and moving up in the world.

People keep saying trade from the forwards and balance the defense. Really our d core is one of the most expensive in the league. We need to trade from it, so we can rebalance the forwards, and the cap.

 

[MarkMM]

People keep saying trade from the forwards and balance the defense. Really our d core is one of the most expensive in the league. We need to trade from it, so we can rebalance the forwards, and the cap.

Well the only way to get this fixed would be to get a good but affordable and trending upward young RHD to fill out one top four spot and then another young solid prospect RHD to replace Myers in a couple years.

On top of that I'd be looking to move out one of Garland or Boeser as well, and then waiting for the likes of Ferland and Dickinson to come off the books and things start to stabilize. That's why to me it's going to be a 2-3 year process no matter what so that's the window I'd be looking to evaluate management, short of them making clearly stupid moves that show they don't know what they're doing, and so far that hasn't happened.

 

[Bubbles]

The most annoying thing about that report from Severalli re. Boudreau is just that it seems possible. The Canucks over the last 8 years have been guilty of many things, but in my opinion one of the most egregious has been their lack of any ability to commit to a direction for the team. Not going to re-litigate the Benning stuff as that is pretty self-explanatory, but with the new management group I hoped for something different. They came in with ALL of the talk about making moves, moving players and fundamentally changing the make up of the team. Admittedly, prices looked to have swung to a degree that that wasn't a great plan anymore, so then they decide to sign Mikheyev to a mid-money deal, re-sign Miller and push for the playoffs.

However, if that's now the goal, why is there not an extension for Boudreau on his desk the same day as the Miller signing? He's one of the winningest coaches in the history of the league. in the regular season. It feels like the management group is trying to maintain a level of optionality, but for what purpose? This team is built to be a playoff contender, not a Stanley Cup contender. How do we not want to increase our chances of making the playoffs to the greatest degree possible?

Committing to a direction takes courage and vision, not the least of which because they might be wrong and they have to wear being wrong in that way. Courage & vision have been long missing in Vancouver,

Excellent post.

Which is why I pretty much stopped listening to what this management group has said, and what they've actually done.

They wanted more speed and yet they re-signed Boeser. Re-signing Boeser and Miller is a clear signal that they believe in this current core, and yet they did nothing to address the Defense? If the management believes in this core, than why wait for two years for these crappy contracts to expire? Why keep that 1st rounder if you think your "window" is now? Flip that 1st for a D core upgrade. Package a pick or two to get rid of these anchor contracts and make a move.

It's like they are hedging their bets for either a playoff run or the same permanent mediocrity of the last 8 years.

So much for Trader Jim.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

The most annoying thing about that report from Severalli re. Boudreau is just that it seems possible. The Canucks over the last 8 years have been guilty of many things, but in my opinion one of the most egregious has been their lack of any ability to commit to a direction for the team. Not going to re-litigate the Benning stuff as that is pretty self-explanatory, but with the new management group I hoped for something different. They came in with ALL of the talk about making moves, moving players and fundamentally changing the make up of the team. Admittedly, prices looked to have swung to a degree that that wasn't a great plan anymore, so then they decide to sign Mikheyev to a mid-money deal, re-sign Miller and push for the playoffs.

However, if that's now the goal, why is there not an extension for Boudreau on his desk the same day as the Miller signing? He's one of the winningest coaches in the history of the league. in the regular season. It feels like the management group is trying to maintain a level of optionality, but for what purpose? This team is built to be a playoff contender, not a Stanley Cup contender. How do we not want to increase our chances of making the playoffs to the greatest degree possible?

Committing to a direction takes courage and vision, not the least of which because they might be wrong and they have to wear being wrong in that way. Courage & vision have been long missing in Vancouver,

Did the new management come in with all of the talk of 'fundamentally' changing the make up of the team..?..I dont recall Rutherford or Allvin ever promising that..?...They talked of getting faster, grittier, and taking the load off of Demko... but none of these ever pointed to fundamentally changing the core players.

The only people talking about fundamentally changing the team, were the reactive fanbase, who assumed that the new management would be so disgusted by the roster they inherited..... that the incoming GM would start parting it out at the first opportunity.

The management evaluated the roster (with a respected coach) over 3/4 of the season, and obviously came to the conclusion that there is indeed a way forward with this core group..(.with some deft moves, and some patience).

It is a direction.

Obviously.,some fans, like yourself, ...are feeling a bit deceived.

 

[JT Milker]

I really, really strongly oppose the notion that there is “no obvious weakness” with the forwards.

- They lack toughness
- Don’t think the lines have any real identity
- Imbalance in composition (lack of elite two way presences)
- Major depth problems. Two injuries means you are plugging in low ceiling, low floor players. Dakota Joshua and Linus Karlsson are our next guys up on the wing. Curtis Lazar or Jason dickinson become your third line centers if a center goes out.

Now there’s obviously a lot of scoring talent. They’ll run a top five PP and probably outscore their deficiencies, but I don’t want to do the hear no evil, see no evil thing.

Of all the things that will prevent this team from seriously contending over the next several years, forward depth would be at the bottom of my list, near goaltending. Like we might have to use our 4th liners in less than ideal situations when injuries hit, there’s definitely no other team in the league that will have to do the same…

 

[VanillaCoke]

Imagine arguing this mgmt is impressive and very different so far because of a "pick surplus" of one 4th in 10 months.

 

[MS]

Imagine arguing this mgmt is impressive and very different so far because of a "pick surplus" of one 4th in 10 months.

Imagine reading the discussion on picks that just happened here and coming up with a take this bad on it.

 

[VanillaCoke]

Pick surplus is so stupid and meaningless in this context im amazed its being pushed at all.

The fact there is similarities between new and old mgmt is the whole point.
Especially now with the team associated with multiple headline legal battles simultaneously with another garbage preseason full of the same issues and basically the same team as dimmy dummy.

 

[andora]

Everybody that's upset that management said they had to do this and that it hasn't done anything can they reference a point when management said that they would get all this done by x amount of time? Did they ever say we're going to get all this done by the first off season?

 

[MS]

Pick surplus is so stupid and meaningless in this context im amazed its being pushed at all.

The fact there is similarities between new and old mgmt is the whole point.
Especially now with the team associated with multiple headline legal battles simultaneously with another garbage preseason full of the same issues and basically the same team as dimmy dummy.

Did you actually read the discussion?

A poster made a sky-is-falling post implying that this group was trading way picks left/right/centre. I pointed out that this group actually had a pick surplus and that his post was ridiculous. Then a poster couldn't subtract 2 minus 1.

Nobody was saying the pick surplus was 'impressive' or 'pushing it' as an agenda. It was just stated that it exists and that implying that this management group is bleeding picks is factually wrong.

_________

There are literally zero similarities with the previous management group. Jim Benning was a hyper-aggressive moron who was basically a dog chasing squirrels for instant one-year gratification. Terrible hockey decisions, terrible cap management. The new group may have it's faults, but it's in being overly patient and conservative and the moves they've actually made have been very low-risk.

 

[TruGr1t]

The RHD issue will most likely be resolved by a trade....not free agency...In fact, if the Canucks can maintain and keep their core players, they wont really have to rely on free agency at all...There are no obvious deficiencies in goal, or forward.

I'd hold off on the doomsaying about Bo's and EP's contracts...Thats what everyone was saying about the Miller contract...If these players want to play here, they'll make the numbers work.

In a few years the Canucks farm system should consistently start yielding NHL players.

I get where you're coming from, but every time I read this I just think it's pie-in-the-sky wishful thinking. You swing a perfect trade for a RHD, Horvat and Pettersson take sweetheart deals, and you bump your prospect pool from abysmal to average, and then all is good. I doubt very much it happens, but it's within the range of potential outcomes, however small the probability.

And in the time it takes to do this, you likely are at the end of your window when you're even remotely close to contending.

I do think they should trade Horvat for a RHD; I just don't know if they can.

 

[Bubbles]

Everybody that's upset that management said they had to do this and that it hasn't done anything can they reference a point when management said that they would get all this done by x amount of time? Did they ever say we're going to get all this done by the first off season?

So what's the plan than? Two years? 5? I can only judge what they've done. You can't go around saying "We need to be faster" and just hope that people skate better.

The most pressing need was the Defenseman and they didn't do anything.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

I get where you're coming from, but every time I read this I just think it's pie-in-the-sky wishful thinking. You swing a perfect trade for a RHD, Horvat and Pettersson take sweetheart deals, and you bump your prospect pool from abysmal to average, and then all is good. I doubt very much it happens, but it's within the range of potential outcomes, however small the probability.

And in the time it takes to do this, you likely are at the end of your window when you're even remotely close to contending.

As opposed to your boatload of 'worst case scenarios' that are the only thing that are ever going to happen to the Canucks..?

In real life..there's good luck and bad luck..and the Canucks will have both in the next few years.

It doesnt have to be a perfect trade for a RHD, but we may have a surplus impact forward ( plus Rathbone and maybe a 2nd) which will bring a decent RHD...Thats not completely unrealistic.

Nobody is asking for Horvat or Pettersson to take sweetheart deals..but of course, you're assuming that they're going to get greedy.

Canucks are not going to be picking in the top 10 anytime soon, so the chances of them winning the top prospect pool award isnt happening anytime soon...What they can do, is draft an NHL player a year minimum......so starting in a year or two, we will have a player graduating to the NHL every year..(depth players)...Thats not completely unrealistic.

 

[andora]

So what's the plan than? Two years? 5? I can only judge what they've done. You can't go around saying "We need to be faster" and just hope that people skate better.

I think the plan is for this year
- make the playoffs
- audition for complimentary pieces on this team you see long term (couple forwards / couple depth defencemen)
- identify value for complimentary pieces you dont want to keep and move one or two if value is there
- focus on moving a bad contract, poolman dickinson pearson myers. Move just one, if you can move one start working on the next one
- incorporate a proper scouting presence into the ncaa and ushl
- identify prospects teams might possibly not be qualifying and get ahead on anyone you may like
- develop a targeted structured plan for the draft, type of draft you want to have focusing on defencemen and centers

Next year is similar in a lot of this, especially the first few points

Longer term outlook in summary, is in 24/25 having a more balance roster that can skate and is ready to be potentially added to for playoff success. Of course all just my opinion.. and maybe its too boring.

The most pressing need was the Defenseman and they didn't do anything.

So ues they did not say anything about getting that done in 6 months and watching the defenceman market over the past 6 months, well.. lets just say i am not shocked they havent been able to do anything yet.

 

[VanillaCoke]

Everybody that's upset that management said they had to do this and that it hasn't done anything can they reference a point when management said that they would get all this done by x amount of time? Did they ever say we're going to get all this done by the first off season?

This is just another stupid semantics technicality cop out excuse.
Of course eventually they're going to figure it out thats a given.
Same bs we heard with dim jim.

Oh its ok bc x, or y, or z.
The reality is everyone was expecting some kind of directional changes with a new mgmt TEAM, a very reasonable take given the disaster they inherited and the statements they made.

Instead It's rapidly approaching a year later and we have basically the same team with the same issues thats been brutal for almost a decade now.
Other bad teams have made moves, other good teams too, but mediocrity in Vancouver is a okay forever.
Lowest bar possible.

If ppl cant see that parallels definitely exist, so far, then idk what to tell them. Sure seems like and feels like the same team, with the same issues, same negativity overhead, same cowardly silence etc.
You have to blind or purposefully ignorant not to see any similarities.

 

[MarkMM]

So what's the plan than? Two years? 5? I can only judge what they've done. You can't go around saying "We need to be faster" and just hope that people skate better.

The most pressing need was the Defenseman and they didn't do anything.

How about the two years that Rutherford literally spelled it out for everyone to hear? Last I checked we haven't even passed year one yet and yet people are getting hysterical that things aren't finished yet.

Jim Rutherford foresees a two-year ‘retool’ for the Canucks

 

[andora]

This is just another stupid semantics technicality cop out excuse.
Of course eventually they're going to figure it out thats a given.
Same bs we heard with dim jim.

Oh its ok bc x, or y, or z.
The reality is everyone was expecting some kind of directional changes with a new mgmt TEAM, a very reasonable take given the disaster they inherited and the statements they made.

Instead It's rapidly approaching a year later and we have basically the same team with the same issues thats been brutal for almost a decade now.
Other bad teams have made moves, other good teams too, but mediocrity in Vancouver is a okay forever.
Lowest bar possible.

If ppl cant see that parallels definitely exist, so far, then idk what to tell them. Sure seems like and feels like the same team, with the same issues, same negativity overhead, same cowardly silence etc.
You have to blind or purposefully ignorant not to see any similarities.

So they didnt say right away.. ok.

Its just hard for me to take 9 months and compare to 8 years.. atleast not to the alarm bells stage

 

[Bubbles]

How about the two years that Rutherford literally spelled it out for everyone to hear? Last I checked we haven't even passed year one yet and yet people are getting hysterical that things aren't finished yet.

Jim Rutherford foresees a two-year ‘retool’ for the Canucks

So 9 months into a two year retool. And what is the goal at the end of these next two years? A playoff bubble team? A Stanley Cup contender?

 

[Vector]

So 9 months into a two year retool. And what is the goal at the end of these next two years? A playoff bubble team? A Stanley Cup contender?

At multiple press conferences he has said that anything less than a Stanley Cup contender is not good enough.

 

[Bubbles]

At multiple press conferences he has said that anything less than a Stanley Cup contender is not good enough.

So say if the Canucks are still a bubble playoff team in 13 months time (or worse) than the honeymoon with JR/Allvin will be over? That's about how much rope I would give them.

 

[Vector]

So say if the Canucks are still a bubble playoff team in 13 months time (or worse) than the honeymoon with JR/Allvin will be over? That's about how much rope I would give them.

And, to me, that's perfectly fair. They set a timeline and the moves they've made are corresponding with that timeline and should be held accountable if it doesn't work.

 

[bossram]

So what's the plan than? Two years? 5? I can only judge what they've done. You can't go around saying "We need to be faster" and just hope that people skate better.

The most pressing need was the Defenseman and they didn't do anything.

100%. They didn't accomplish anything of note. Here were the team's biggest needs as of JR/Allvin's hiring:

1. Improve cap flexibility
2. Improve prospect/futures pool
3. Improve the right side of the defense

They accomplished none of those things. In terms of an organizational direction, they've firmly committed to spinning their tires in the mud and hoping to eventually get out of the dirt.

They get a C- on execution and an F for organizational direction.