Makar v Hughes

[SuperScript29]

here's the updated stats


Hughes has held the puck in the offensive zone for half an hour more than Makar

How about overall? I think focusing on a very specific zone is rather cherry picking. Nevertheless, I already agreed that this year Hughes does indeed deserve the Norris, he has had an outstanding season. My thing is I rate defensemen who can play in all situations higher than those who do only one thing. Between the two, Makar seems more well rounded, and I would argue many other dmen as well.

 

[Rowlet]

How about overall? I think focusing on a very specific zone is rather cherry picking. Nevertheless, I already agreed that this year Hughes does indeed deserve the Norris, he has had an outstanding season. My thing is I rate defensemen who can play in all situations higher than those who do only one thing. Between the two, Makar seems more well rounded, and I would argue many other dmen as well.

There's no stat for D or neutral zone POSIT because you exit the defensive zone as fast as possible. It's not cherry picking because having more D zone possession is actively bad. Hughes doesn't hit or block shots because he always has the puck on the other end of the ice.

As for the well rounded argument, here's stats showing that Quinn Hughes is drastically better defensively than Makar is:

Line Stats - Natural Stat Trick

Line Stats - Natural Stat Trick

In Makar's ice time away from MacKinnon, his puck possession stats drop by about 15%, while Hughes is the best Canuck by a lot, his stats are worse when Pettersson or Miller are also on the ice.

Makar also starts more in the offensive zone than Hughes.


edit: also, a genuine question, Makar plays 2:30 a game on the PK but he's bottom 8% in the league in PK stats, do you consider that to be playing in more situations even though he's really bad at it?

 

[Tralfamadore]

There's no stat for D or neutral zone POSIT because you exit the defensive zone as fast as possible. It's not cherry picking because having more D zone possession is actively bad. Hughes doesn't hit or block shots because he always has the puck on the other end of the ice.

As for the well rounded argument, here's stats showing that Quinn Hughes is drastically better defensively than Makar is:

Line Stats - Natural Stat Trick

Line Stats - Natural Stat Trick

In Makar's ice time away from MacKinnon, his puck possession stats drop by about 15%, while Hughes is the best Canuck by a lot, his stats are worse when Pettersson or Miller are also on the ice.

Makar also starts more in the offensive zone than Hughes.


edit: also, a genuine question, Makar plays 2:30 a game on the PK but he's bottom 8% in the league in PK stats, do you consider that to be playing in more situations even though he's really bad at it?

I think you overvalue puck possession time. Hughes just has a playing style that hogs the puck more than other defenseman. Maybe some other players choose to make quick plays rather than hold on to the puck. And ya no shit his puck possession drops with MacKinnon on the ice... If Van had a player of his caliber it would be the same case with Hughes. Also, all of that offensive zone possession time yet him and Makar are neck in neck for points per game...

Makar also starts more of his shifts in the defensive zone than Hughes (15.1% to 9.4%) so what's your point on the offensive zone starts? Quinn just happens to start more of his shifts on the fly. None of this means anything really.

And ya Makar hasn't been strong defensively this year. 5 on 5 or on the PK. Not sure what's going on there. Thinking some sort of combination of injury and not playing full tilt in regular season games. We'll see what happens come playoff time.

Makar also has more takeaways fewer defensive zone giveaways and much more blocked shots. All decent defensive metrics.

 

[eviohh26]

I think you overvalue puck possession time. Hughes just has a playing style that hogs the puck more than other defenseman. Maybe some other players choose to make quick plays rather than hold on to the puck. And ya no shit his puck possession drops with MacKinnon on the ice... If Van had a player of his caliber it would be the same case with Hughes. Also, all of that offensive zone possession time yet him and Makar are neck in neck for points per game...

Makar also starts more of his shifts in the defensive zone than Hughes (15.1% to 9.4%) so what's your point on the offensive zone starts? Quinn just happens to start more of his shifts on the fly. None of this means anything really.

And ya Makar hasn't been strong defensively this year. 5 on 5 or on the PK. Not sure what's going on there. Thinking some sort of combination of injury and not playing full tilt in regular season games. We'll see what happens come playoff time.

Makar also has more takeaways fewer defensive zone giveaways and much more blocked shots. All decent defensive metrics.

I'd much rather my team have the puck than the other team.

You say he is a puck hog but he really isn't. It's just that literally everything runs through Hughes. Kinda like how everything runs through MacKinnon.

I'm not really a stat guy so I'll let you guys argue that one out.

 

[Tralfamadore]

I'd much rather my team have the puck than the other team.

You say he is a puck hog but he really isn't. It's just that literally everything runs through Hughes. Kinda like how everything runs through MacKinnon.

I'm not really a stat guy so I'll let you guys argue that one out.

I mean of course. Can't argue argue any of that.

 

[Spilot23]

Hughes isn't reliant on a franchise top 2 center in the league for his success. Look at Makar's numbers with and without MacKinnon. They aren't pretty.

Pettersson has actually had a down year and hasn't looked like his last season's self, and he's obviously a tier or two below MacKinnon this season. Despite this, Hughes still somehow has 91 points.

Nobody is denying Makar is great, but the numbers say that he's a major beneficiary of the team around him.

Also, for opposing team fans who used PDO as a knock against the Canucks all year, they should be able to look at the underlying numbers this season and know that Hughes has absolutely blown Makar out of the water in all important metrics.


Yep. Quinn Hughes IS the Vancouver Canucks. The Canucks don't have a MacKinnon he can play with. If they did, Hughes likely has over 100 points right now.

Beside this year do you have numbers with and without Mackinnon? I'm not very good at finding advanced stats my apologize. From my eye test and if I remember correctly advanced stats, since his rookie season he has been pretty much consistent offensively and defensively. This year is the first one where he looks human or dare I to say below. As I said in another thread him and Toews look like they aren't on the same page. That 2022 season I think many Avs fans would've taken Makar over Mackinnon myself included.

I feel like fans from other teams will always use the easy route saying that if their player played with Mackinnon they would've been better and have the same accolades he has when we will never know. Probably the thing we will hear from Bouchard when he improves his success will probably be tied up to McDavid.

 

[Rowlet]

Beside this year do you have numbers with and without Mackinnon? I'm not very good at finding advanced stats my apologize. From my eye test and if I remember correctly advanced stats, since his rookie season he has been pretty much consistent offensively and defensively. This year is the first one where he looks human or dare I to say below. As I said in another thread him and Toews look like they aren't on the same page. That 2022 season I think many Avs fans would've taken Makar over Mackinnon myself included.

I feel like fans from other teams will always use the easy route saying that if their player played with Mackinnon they would've been better and have the same accolades he has when we will never know. Probably the thing we will hear from Bouchard when he improves his success will probably be tied up to McDavid.

20-21 MacKinnon was better but Makar was still good
21-22 Makar was better, MacKinnon really struggled defensively without him
22-23 They were statistically about even, slight edge to Makar, but Makar's defensive metrics begun to fall noticeably from previous seasons
23-24 MacKinnon is fully driving the bus, Makar is struggling really badly and has seen significant further regression.

 

[nucksflailtogether]

norris wins and nominations mean a lot. sure there is bias but the best of the best usually end up at the top. the fact that makar has a win and 3 nominations and quinn doesn't have any of that speaks to how far ahead makar is. quinn is having an incredible season, even better than makar but you can't write off makar and fox's consistency to make it to the top year in, year out. quinn hasn't been able to do that yet which is the biggest knock against him. consistency when it comes to defense is very important. having them as even is crazy until quinn can prove he can have the same consistency as the other two.

After Quinn wins his Norris, following a season last year where he was massively undervalued by the league, I would argue he's reached the level of consistency where he's caught Fox and Makar. I'm not going to say he's better based on this one season but even is more than fair IMO.

 

[tanti9]

bumping this....I believe the Norris this season (2024-2025) is going to be a battle between these two studs to the end (no disrespect to Werenski who is having an amazing season himself and will probably gain some votes).

Makar had a generational start to the season, point wise, but has "cooled" off lately and Hughes has tracked him down (3 points behind with 2 games in hand). I believe the underlying numbers have not be kind to Makar and he has struggled defensively (I do not watch enough Avalanche hockey to verify so it is stat watching mostly). Makar does have Mckinnon as a running mate, who is having a great year. That being said, Makar is a great player to watch.

Hughes has been all world this year for Vancouver and has literally carried the Canucks (Pettersson is finally coming around, Miller back soon hopefully) and Hronek (Hughes d partner) is out for 8 more weeks. His control of games is out of this world, and he has taken another step this year. I believe he is the frontrunner right now and should garner some Hart votes. Also, has broken the most ankles this far lol

What is your take? I believe both of Hughes and Makar are phenomenal dmen and are capable of great things. Any other dmen in the same tier as these 2? Werenski, Heiskanen, Morrissey, Josi, think they are great but in a tier below? Before Edmonton fans get mad, I do like Bouchard but find believe his skating holds him back, I do not think Bouchards defense is as horrible as people make it out to be but does have his moments.

I believe it is a 2 man race, lets see how civil this thread goes lol

 

[Phrasing]

bumping this....I believe the Norris this season (2024-2025) is going to be a battle between these two studs to the end (no disrespect to Werenski who is having an amazing season himself and will probably gain some votes).

Makar had a generational start to the season, point wise, but has "cooled" off lately and Hughes has tracked him down (3 points behind with 2 games in hand). I believe the underlying numbers have not be kind to Makar and he has struggled defensively (I do not watch enough Avalanche hockey to verify so it is stat watching mostly). Makar does have Mckinnon as a running mate, who is having a great year. That being said, Makar is a great player to watch.

Hughes has been all world this year for Vancouver and has literally carried the Canucks (Pettersson is finally coming around, Miller back soon hopefully) and Hronek (Hughes d partner) is out for 8 more weeks. His control of games is out of this world, and he has taken another step this year. I believe he is the frontrunner right now and should garner some Hart votes. Also, has broken the most ankles this far lol

What is your take? I believe both of Hughes and Makar are phenomenal dmen and are capable of great things. Any other dmen in the same tier as these 2? Werenski, Heiskanen, Morrissey, Josi, think they are great but in a tier below? Before Edmonton fans get mad, I do like Bouchard but find believe his skating holds him back, I do not think Bouchards defense is as horrible as people make it out to be but does have his moments.

I believe it is a 2 man race, lets see how civil this thread goes lol

Let die those things that die. Like this thread.

 

[SillyRabbit]

bumping this....I believe the Norris this season (2024-2025) is going to be a battle between these two studs to the end (no disrespect to Werenski who is having an amazing season himself and will probably gain some votes).

Makar had a generational start to the season, point wise, but has "cooled" off lately and Hughes has tracked him down (3 points behind with 2 games in hand). I believe the underlying numbers have not be kind to Makar and he has struggled defensively (I do not watch enough Avalanche hockey to verify so it is stat watching mostly). Makar does have Mckinnon as a running mate, who is having a great year. That being said, Makar is a great player to watch.

Hughes has been all world this year for Vancouver and has literally carried the Canucks (Pettersson is finally coming around, Miller back soon hopefully) and Hronek (Hughes d partner) is out for 8 more weeks. His control of games is out of this world, and he has taken another step this year. I believe he is the frontrunner right now and should garner some Hart votes. Also, has broken the most ankles this far lol

What is your take? I believe both of Hughes and Makar are phenomenal dmen and are capable of great things. Any other dmen in the same tier as these 2? Werenski, Heiskanen, Morrissey, Josi, think they are great but in a tier below? Before Edmonton fans get mad, I do like Bouchard but find believe his skating holds him back, I do not think Bouchards defense is as horrible as people make it out to be but does have his moments.

I believe it is a 2 man race, lets see how civil this thread goes lol

Why would you bump a thread from last season if you’re asking about this season?

 

[dirtydanglez]

still makar.

 

[Three On Zero]

still makar.

Hughes is undoubtedly the 2nd best defenceman in the league.

Makar gave himself enough cushion already in his career that this little “slump” is nothing more than a small wrinkle in what is already a stellar career. This closes the gap between the two ever so slightly but Hughes still hasn’t caught up to him.

 

[tfwnogf]

(I do not watch enough Avalanche hockey to verify so it is stat watching mostly) That being said, Makar is a great player to watch.

....oh.

 

[dirtydanglez]

Hughes is undoubtedly the 2nd best defenceman in the league.

Makar gave himself enough cushion already in his career that this little “slump” is nothing more than a small wrinkle in what is already a stellar career. This closes the gap between the two ever so slightly but Hughes still hasn’t caught up to him.

cant rule out fox and josi. quinn is in the group tho

 

[Mr Bojanglez]

this is silly. Hughes got a bright future. improved his defense tremendously. But... idk man. Lets wait a bit more. Main boards and all...

 

[Three On Zero]

cant rule out fox and josi. quinn is in the group tho

He’s done enough to have them 3rd and 4th. He closed that gap pretty well

 

[eviohh26]

Was a 10 point gap. Now only 3. Makar is a pretty good pylon . Maybe one day he will learn to play defense.

 

[tabness]

ASP will be better than both

 

[Love]

ASP will be better than both

Lane Hutson vibes here

 

[wetcoast]

ASP will be better than both

Sure in 15 years when Makar and Hughes have hung up their skates.

 

[nucksflailtogether]

Neck and neck. 1a and 1b depending on who's having a good week.

As a Canucks fan, give me either and I'm equally happy.

 

[Sergei Shirokov]

I think Hughes has started to make a push for having the better season after Makar started off stronger. Though it's close either way, & Makar is playing better than he did last year.

Lots made of Hronek helping Hughes last season, like his Devon Toews (which is true), but with Hronek out Hughes has taken on more minutes (27-30+ consistently) & hasn't missed a beat. Not saying he's the frontrunner or anything - prob Kaprizov ATM - but he should definitely be in Hart contention imo if he continues at this level.

Still pretty early in the season between these 2, Makar definitely has more of that game breaking scoring ability where he could go off & make it another gap in the points race, but Hughes has been fantastic. I think these 2 stand just a notch above any other Dman as the best in the league.

 

[McFlash97]

Makar is near generational for a defenseman. Hughes is just a really good puck moving defenseman. Neither are great defensively. Makar being slightly better.

Makar overall is better. Slightly bigger, faster, better shot, Hughes is a better passer.

 

[SillyRabbit]

Makar is near generational for a defenseman. Hughes is just a really good puck moving defenseman. Neither are great defensively. Makar being slightly better.

Makar overall is better. Slightly bigger, faster, better shot, Hughes is a better passer.

Hughes has been better defensively for the past two seasons.

If it was just one season, you could say it was a down season for Makar defensively. But it's continued into this season as well.

A lot of it is Makar regressing defensively. He is nowhere near as strong defensively as he was during his Norris season.