Makar v Hughes

[Tralfamadore]

They’re the #1-2 D-man in the league. Makar has a better career so far, but since we’re projecting rest of career, have to take the player who is trending higher and higher.

Fine let's settle this once and for all then. Someone make a Hughes v Makar poll.

 

[McFlash97]

Moving the puck is a defensive skill too, something that is still not understood by every hockey fan in 2024. Let's see how long it takes



Some of the best D-men's game is about retrieving the puck quickly and moving it so efficiently that their team turns defense into offense fast enough to not waste a whole forward shift.

Erik Karlsson vs Travis Hamonic. One is tough as nails, can stop the puck with his face, can battle in the corners and in front of the net and throw big hits. Yet, he is the one who is horrible defensively, not the other way around.

One day, people will understand that, just like it took time to understand paces, then expected goals, etc. It's normal, it's the human being in a nutshell, things take time to be assimilated.

This same logic then should apply to all great offensive defenseman of the past too. Phil Housley, Paul Coffey, Sergei Zubov, Karlsson, etc etc etc. Those guys were all amazing defensive defenseman who smoked guys like Langway, Chara, Pronger etc etc because they could efficiently just play keep away all game. Am I doing this right ?

I'm not saying guys like Hughes are bad defensive players, however a lot of warts are more evident for offensive guys when playoffs roll around. When its harder to maintain puck possession. You need guys who have size, speed and also shot blocking, grinding in the corners type of guys. All I know is Makar was doing all these things the series against the Oilers, Hughes wasnt close to Makar level.

Substitute Makar for Hughes in that series ... and the Canucks might have squeeked by us. Makar was that good.

 

[Zanon]

Substitute Makar for Hughes in that series ... and the Canucks might have squeeked by us. Makar was that good.

Substitute Silovs for Demko and the Canucks might've squeaked by the Oilers.

 

[McFlash97]

Substitute Silovs for Demko and the Canucks might've squeaked by the Oilers.

Substitute Pickard for Skinner and it might have been a sweep for the Oilers

 

[Xspyrit]

This same logic then should apply to all great offensive defenseman of the past too. Phil Housley, Paul Coffey, Sergei Zubov, Karlsson, etc etc etc. Those guys were all amazing defensive defenseman who smoked guys like Langway, Chara, Pronger etc etc because they could efficiently just play keep away all game. Am I doing this right ?

Of course not lol, because you're being disingenuous

There's not only ONE way to be efficient defensively... gap control, stick's play, positioning, physical play, reach, quickness, skating, etc, etc, etc.

I'm not saying guys like Hughes are bad defensive players, however a lot of warts are more evident for offensive guys when playoffs roll around. When its harder to maintain puck possession. You need guys who have size, speed and also shot blocking, grinding in the corners type of guys. All I now is Makar was doing all these things the series against the Oilers, Hughes wasnt close to Makar level.

Substitute Makar for Hughes in that series ... and the Canucks might have squeeked by us. Makar was that good.

The playoffs argument is not false, as it becomes tighter and more physical. Some are still able to do great and some will falter (Girard?)

What I said last post is not against Makar who is the closest thing you can find to generational.

 

[kcunac]

Fine let's settle this once and for all then. Someone make a Hughes v Makar poll.

I wouldn’t say polling says who the better player is just people’s opinions about, which are subjective and plagued with logical fallacies.

That being said, I wanted to add that, as others have flagged, a key detractor for Hughes is still size. Can he be as effective when the whistles are put away in the POs? He’s been effective in the POs, but not as effective as he is currently.

I believe in Hughes because of the significant actions he has taken to address his deficiencies, like defense and shot. But I also have confirmation bias because he is my favourite player.

 

[Anthem]

Substitute Pickard for Skinner and it might have been a sweep for the Oilers

Maybe, but unlike your fantasy the idea that Demko might have been better than Silovs is backed up by Demko's entire season to that point.

Shame it's some sort of great shame for Oilers fans to ever admit their team is anything less than perfect. Having to bust out that precious cope meter after every single loss must get tiring.

 

[Anthem]

This same logic then should apply to all great offensive defenseman of the past too. Phil Housley, Paul Coffey, Sergei Zubov, Karlsson, etc etc etc. Those guys were all amazing defensive defenseman who smoked guys like Langway, Chara, Pronger etc etc because they could efficiently just play keep away all game. Am I doing this right ?

I'm not saying guys like Hughes are bad defensive players, however a lot of warts are more evident for offensive guys when playoffs roll around. When its harder to maintain puck possession. You need guys who have size, speed and also shot blocking, grinding in the corners type of guys. All I know is Makar was doing all these things the series against the Oilers, Hughes wasnt close to Makar level.

Substitute Makar for Hughes in that series ... and the Canucks might have squeeked by us. Makar was that good.

No you aren't doing it right, see the people posting these things about Hughes have numbers actually backing their arguments.

You know what nevermind, it was pretty good try for someone who is still dumb enough to think Hughes isn't great.

Oilers fans opinions can pretty much be summed up as "they actually think Bouchard is better".

 

[logan5]

Hughes is simply on another level than any other defenseman right now.

I've argued in the past that it is a lot easier for a D man to look great when he is playing on an elite team like the Avs were, but now that they are playing at an average level, Makar doesn't look as good. The Canucks are not playing a lot better than the Avs, but Hughes is still dominant, and as mentioned, the stats back that up, especially in the d zone, where Hughes is elite and Makar is not.

 

[Ncit3]

Hughes is simply on another level than any other defenseman right now.

I've argued in the past that it is a lot easier for a D man to look great when he is playing on an elite team like the Avs were, but now that they are playing at an average level, Makar doesn't look as good. The Canucks are not playing a lot better than the Avs, but Hughes is still dominant, and as mentioned, the stats back that up, especially in the d zone, where Hughes is elite and Makar is not.

I think a lot of the defensive metrics are skewed because of a lot of time playing in front of Thatcher Demko while Makar has spent seasons in front of 4giev. I am assuming you're talking about stuff like xCF, xGF, GF/60, and GA/60. All of these are fairly close and often skew a bit in the favor of Hughes. But again, any defensive metric that one can make an argument for Hughes in can be taken with a grain of salt due to Demko, in the same way that people have talked about Makar and his better skater teammates. I think it's closer than others might think. I am biased of course. But there is also something gamebreaking about Makar that no other defender currently has in the league.

 

[Phrasing]

I think a lot of the defensive metrics are skewed because of a lot of time playing in front of Thatcher Demko while Makar has spent seasons in front of 4giev. I am assuming you're talking about stuff like xCF, xGF, GF/60, and GA/60. All of these are fairly close and often skew a bit in the favor of Hughes. But again, any defensive metric that one can make an argument for Hughes in can be taken with a grain of salt due to Demko, in the same way that people have talked about Makar and his better skater teammates. I think it's closer than others might think. I am biased of course. But there is also something gamebreaking about Makar that no other defender currently has in the league.

I see so throw out those stats and take with a grain of salt as a result of a goaltender that’s played 52 games over the last two seasons and also because there is something unquantifiable about what Makar does compared to the rest of the NHL?

I’m sold.

 

[Nona Di Giuseppe]

I think a lot of the defensive metrics are skewed because of a lot of time playing in front of Thatcher Demko while Makar has spent seasons in front of 4giev. I am assuming you're talking about stuff like xCF, xGF, GF/60, and GA/60. All of these are fairly close and often skew a bit in the favor of Hughes. But again, any defensive metric that one can make an argument for Hughes in can be taken with a grain of salt due to Demko, in the same way that people have talked about Makar and his better skater teammates. I think it's closer than others might think. I am biased of course. But there is also something gamebreaking about Makar that no other defender currently has in the league.

demko?... the guy that hasn't even played this season yet?

since makar has had better skaters around him, inflating his pts, it goes both ways. id just disregard both arguments.

hughes also has something gamebreaking that no other defender currently has in the league, so that's awkward

 

[Xspyrit]

I think a lot of the defensive metrics are skewed because of a lot of time playing in front of Thatcher Demko while Makar has spent seasons in front of 4giev. I am assuming you're talking about stuff like xCF, xGF, GF/60, and GA/60. All of these are fairly close and often skew a bit in the favor of Hughes. But again, any defensive metric that one can make an argument for Hughes in can be taken with a grain of salt due to Demko, in the same way that people have talked about Makar and his better skater teammates. I think it's closer than others might think. I am biased of course. But there is also something gamebreaking about Makar that no other defender currently has in the league.

The goaltending quality doesn't affect a player's advanced stats, it affects if expected goals end up in real goals more often than not. I personally don't evaluate players with GA/60 much, I look at xGA/60 more.

In the end, it's expected goals vs PDO. My favorite team is victim of this this season (well not just THIS season lol), not getting enough saves and some forwards with poor conversion rates = you end up losing points in the standings.

 

[John Mandalorian]

demko?... the guy that hasn't even played this season yet?

since makar has had better skaters around him, inflating his pts, it goes both ways. id just disregard both arguments.

hughes also has something gamebreaking that no other defender currently has in the league, so that's awkward

Makar plays with the better top line guys but the drop off is substantial after that this year and the two years before. So there’s a trade off with that. Also that’s substantially negated by Makar playing significantly more on the PK/SH.

 

[Jixer19]

Avs fans have never had anyone like Makar before, so they are happy
I imagine Canuck fans have never had anyone like Hughes before? So they are happy

Both are great, the league is better with them in it. I will always pick Makar (but I know I am bias on that), but just enjoy the show both of these gentlemen put on and I imagine they will be the front runners for the Norris for the next while at least

 

[TruePowerSlave]

I wanna see Hughes dominate a playoff series. Makar has done it multiple times.

 

[McFlash97]

No you aren't doing it right, see the people posting these things about Hughes have numbers actually backing their arguments.

You know what nevermind, it was pretty good try for someone who is still dumb to thik Hughes isn't great.

Oilers fans opinions can pretty much be summed up as "they actually think Bouchard is better".

No Bouchard isnt... in the regular season, but I bet what Bouchard did in the playoffs won't be touched by Hughes

 

[LemonSauceD]

No Bouchard isnt... in the regular season, but I bet what Bouchard did in the playoffs won't be touched by Hughes

thx to McDrai on the PP lmao. Anybody without oilers goggles knows Bouchard isn’t shit without those two.

 

[McFlash97]

thx to McDrai on the PP lmao. Anybody without oilers goggles knows Bouchard isn’t shit without those two.

Bouchard and the Oilers live rent free in your heads. We know.

 

[M2Beezy]

As Makars BIGGEST fan outside Colorado even I admit this is Quinn Hughes and its not particularly all that close

 

[Spilot23]

As Makars BIGGEST fan outside Colorado even I admit this is Quinn Hughes and its not particularly all that close

I wouldn't have believed you until I saw "Objective and Neutral Hockey Commentator". This is Hughes I guess

 

[EXTRAS]

What makes Hughes better than Makar is how dominant Hughes is in the defensive zone. His puck retrieval and evading the forecheck is elite. His breakout passes are elite. Stickhandling out of the zone is elite. His man on man coverage is excellent - using his skating, he sticks to the puck carrier like glue. Overall he is easily the best in the league at zone exits , plus he scores over 90 points a season.

Last year Hughes scored more points than Makar, then the year before that, Hughes still scored more points than Makar, who benefitted from a shortened season to pump up his PPG. So far this year they are really close in points, so it's a wash offensively, but Hughes is way ahead on the defensive side. That's why Hughes overall impact on the game is only matched by McDavid. Even Elliotte Friedman, who hates the Canucks, said Hughes is in the same class as McDavid now.

He only scored more points last year because makar missed 5 games. Makar had more points per game.

 

[EXTRAS]

It's too bad Hughes and Makar weren't both playing for team Canada. That would be fun to watch.

Actually Imagine a PP of Makar - Hughes - Fox - Werenski - Josi

Or something like that.

 

[Quinning]

Avs fans have never had anyone like Makar before, so they are happy
I imagine Canuck fans have never had anyone like Hughes before? So they are happy

Both are great, the league is better with them in it. I will always pick Makar (but I know I am bias on that), but just enjoy the show both of these gentlemen put on and I imagine they will be the front runners for the Norris for the next while at least

Canucks haven't ever had a player of Hughes caliber. Avs have had Roy, Sakic and Forsberg over the years.

It's too bad Hughes and Makar weren't both playing for team Canada. That would be fun to watch.

Actually Imagine a PP of Makar - Hughes - Fox - Werenski - Josi

Or something like that.

Canucks would have drafted him at 5th over Pettersson if the Avs had passed. So they may have ended up on the same team.

 

[Jixer19]

Canucks haven't ever had a player of Hughes caliber. Avs have had Roy, Sakic and Forsberg over the years.



Canucks would have drafted him at 5th over Pettersson if the Avs had passed. So they may have ended up on the same team.

I should have specified no one like them on the defence side, not just players in general, my bad on that