McDavid's peak level of play is on their tier. MacKinnon had one season that was on that tier. I don't see how you can argue that MacKinnon would be challenging prime Jagr/Crosby for best player when they would normally be beating him year and year out.
MacKinnon has 150 points in his last 82 games
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McDavid's peak level of play is on their tier. MacKinnon had one season that was on that tier. I don't see how you can argue that MacKinnon would be challenging prime Jagr/Crosby for best player when they would normally be beating him year and year out.
I might agree....certainly fun to watch, but McDavid is fun to watch as well in a similar way. I'll be honest, Kucherov isn't as fun to watch, not as explosive, but that doesn't mean he's not up there as well.
So, while I agree MacKinnon has been right there with McDavid the last 2 or 3 years, that's not enough to suggest McDavid shouldn't up on another tier....he is, it's that simple. Doesn't mean he'll be better than MacKinnon for the rest of his career either, but he's done so much already, he's put himself at a level above. MacKinnon is way better than Crosby right now, but that doesn't mean Crosby shouldn't be at a higher level for career....not a fair comparison of course as Crosby is much older and MacKinnon and McDavid are closer to the same age.
It's interesting though, McDavid's significant separation (in my mind) could be a lot to do with him simply being a star player as soon as he hit the ice in his rookie season while it has taken MacKinnon a lot longer to develop into what he is now. I'd place McDavid above MacKinnon on an all-time list very easily and he'd be so many places higher.....but you might not see that having just looked at the last few years....but that's the thing, McDavid had so many better seasons in the years before that vs. MacKinnon.
tarheelhockey
Offside Review Specialist
Snippets of the conversation that got us here:
“It’s his bad luck that he happened to come into the league at around the same time as McDavid. There was a long stretch of years where anyone putting up this kind of offensive performance would have stood out as the top scoring threat in the world.”
“there were also some years in the late 60s, late 70s, late 90s, early 00s, and mid 10s where he’d have been right in the conversation with guys like Lafleur and Jagr and Crosby. I think of Sakic‘s crazy peak in 2001, MacKinnon has been around that level recently.”
“Same with MacKinnon, this run would need to look more like 500 games rather than 82 games before we start entertaining him as the equal to a McDavid.”
That is, the way MacKinnon is playing right now (82-game pace in the 120-150 range depending on what year it is) would definitely challenge a prime Crosby or Jagr. That’s not to say he’s on their level if we are looking at extended periods of performance, just the brief window this OP is talking about.
what people don't realize is that Mack is definitely on Jagr and Crosby tier right now but isn't regarded due to his lack of full seasons played each year.
take a look. If he had played 82 games the last 10 years he'd be looking at having had 7-8 100+ point seasons. Crosby's only had 6 (yes you could use the same argument about lack of 82 games played per season) but the point is that yes then they are on that same tier.
Mcdavid's had 7 100 point seasons, Jagr with 5, Ovie with 4.
starting from Mcdavid's sophomore year vs Mack's breakout year in 17-18:
Mack: 1.31 ppg = 107 points over 82
Mcdavid: 1.32 = 108 points in 82
18-19'
Mack: 99 pts in 82 games
Mcdavid: 1.32 = 116 in 78 gms
19-20'
Mack: 1.35 ppg = 111 points over 82 gms
Mcdavid: 1.52 = 124 points over 78 gms
20-21'
Mack: 1.35 ppg = 111 points over 82 gms again
Mcdavid: 1.88 ppg = 154 points over 82 gms
21-22
Mack: 1.35 ppg = 111 points over 82 gms again for the THIRD year in a row
Mcdavid: 123 points in 80 gms
22-23
Mack: 1.56 ppg = 128 pts over 82 gms
Mcdavid: 153 points in 82 gms
23-24'
Mack: 140 points in 82 gms
Mcdavid: 1.74 ppg for 142 points over 82 gms
currently:
Mack: 1.92 ppg = 158 pts over 82gms
Mcdavid: 1.0 ppg = 82 pts over 82 gms
so that's 3 straight years of a 111 point pace THEN the year after a 128 point pace and THEN a 140 point pace and now a 158 point pace. That's 6 straight years of 100+ point paces. The guy's earned his inclusion on this tier.
clearly there are years where Mcdavid is far above Mack but he aint slouching and shows he's on the crosby and jagr tier.
take a look. If he had played 82 games the last 10 years he'd be looking at having had 7-8 100+ point seasons. Crosby's only had 6 (yes you could use the same argument about lack of 82 games played per season) but the point is that yes then they are on that same tier.
Mcdavid's had 7 100 point seasons, Jagr with 5, Ovie with 4.
starting from Mcdavid's sophomore year vs Mack's breakout year in 17-18:
Mack: 1.31 ppg = 107 points over 82
Mcdavid: 1.32 = 108 points in 82
18-19'
Mack: 99 pts in 82 games
Mcdavid: 1.32 = 116 in 78 gms
19-20'
Mack: 1.35 ppg = 111 points over 82 gms
Mcdavid: 1.52 = 124 points over 78 gms
20-21'
Mack: 1.35 ppg = 111 points over 82 gms again
Mcdavid: 1.88 ppg = 154 points over 82 gms
21-22
Mack: 1.35 ppg = 111 points over 82 gms again for the THIRD year in a row
Mcdavid: 123 points in 80 gms
22-23
Mack: 1.56 ppg = 128 pts over 82 gms
Mcdavid: 153 points in 82 gms
23-24'
Mack: 140 points in 82 gms
Mcdavid: 1.74 ppg for 142 points over 82 gms
currently:
Mack: 1.92 ppg = 158 pts over 82gms
Mcdavid: 1.0 ppg = 82 pts over 82 gms
so that's 3 straight years of a 111 point pace THEN the year after a 128 point pace and THEN a 140 point pace and now a 158 point pace. That's 6 straight years of 100+ point paces. The guy's earned his inclusion on this tier.
clearly there are years where Mcdavid is far above Mack but he aint slouching and shows he's on the crosby and jagr tier.
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Let's go with his last 82 regular season games:
NHL Stats
The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.
www.nhl.com
PPG - 1.83
Kucherov - 1.79
McDavid - 1.76
Panarin - 1.44
Kaprizov - 1.42
Draisaitl - 1.32
Rantanen - 1.28
Makar - 1.26
Matthews - 1.25
Marner 1.24
Jagr's best 82 game stretch:
NHL Stats
The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.
www.nhl.com
PPG - 1.79
Sakic 1.32
Selanne 1.26
Lindros 1.24
Forsberg 1.23
Fleury 1.22
Crosby's best 82 game stretch:
NHL Stats
The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.
www.nhl.com
PPG 1.70
Malkin 1.25
Stamkos 1.15
St. Louis 1.12
Sedin 1.06
Giroux 1.06
Sedin 1.05
D Wakaluk
Registered User
Any geezers remember Duke 3D? Using the steroids item (+200% speed)?
That's what watching MacKinnon feels like. Guy's a beast
Tbh he feels more like a gamebreaker than McGod in his current form
That's what watching MacKinnon feels like. Guy's a beast
Tbh he feels more like a gamebreaker than McGod in his current form
because Crosby is already on his own tier, the argument is that Mack can be on that tier. I also mention at the end of that sentence part that the point is that they should be on the same tier.
the shortcut way is just career ppg and Mack is at 1.15 pg vs Crosby 1.25 ppg
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Video Nasty
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I’m beginning to wonder when MacKinnon gets serious consideration as the best Nordique/Avalanche forward ever? Is he already there at this point for Avalanche fans?
Video Nasty
Registered User
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I’m talking about on ice play. His past eight seasons seem to be beyond what Sakic and Forsberg were able to cobble together.
tarheelhockey
Offside Review Specialist
Let's go with his last 82 regular season games:
NHL Stats
The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.
PPG - 1.83
Kucherov - 1.79
McDavid - 1.76
Panarin - 1.44
Kaprizov - 1.42
Draisaitl - 1.32
Rantanen - 1.28
Makar - 1.26
Matthews - 1.25
Marner 1.24
Jagr's best 82 game stretch:
NHL Stats
The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.
PPG - 1.79
Sakic 1.32
Selanne 1.26
Lindros 1.24
Forsberg 1.23
Fleury 1.22
Crosby's best 82 game stretch:
NHL Stats
The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.
PPG 1.70
Malkin 1.25
Stamkos 1.15
St. Louis 1.12
Sedin 1.06
Giroux 1.06
Sedin 1.05
I’m honestly not sure what you’re inferring from these numbers.
It looks pretty clear that during their respective best 82-game stretches, Jagr/Crosby/MacKinnon all established a huge gap between themselves and the “pack”.
The difference for MacKinnon is that at the same time as his crazy run, there were also two other top-tier superstars who were similarly on fire and creating a huge gap between themselves and the pack. Thus my original comment: “It’s his bad luck that he happened to come into the league at around the same time as McDavid [and Kucherov]. There was a stretch of years where anyone putting up this kind of offensive performance would have stood out as the top scoring threat in the world.“
The numbers you posted show exactly what I meant by that. Apologies if you were posting the numbers as a form of agreement, I’m just not sure how to read them.
Jixer19
Registered User
I am only one Avs fan, but I would slot MacK third behind those two. Sakic is the top and Forsberg is always the what if factor of health, he was a beast when he was able to play, especially playoff time (which all 3 are known for, Sakic being Mr Clutch himself). Now will that change in the future? Who knows for sure, if MacK keeps this up and gets another cup or two, he could become 2nd, hard to top Sakic, just cause he has cups as a Captain and one as a GM now
I am saying that he wouldn't stand out anymore than he is now against Jagr or Crosby. At best, he would share the "top scoring threat" label with those two as he currently sharing that with McDavid and Kucherov.
What he is doing perhaps takes some of the shine off of McDavid's peak, if you thought that he was doing things that were above Crosby and Jagr.
Video Nasty
Registered User
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Can we stop pretending that Crosby had even one season that topped any of Jagr’s five best?
tarheelhockey
Offside Review Specialist
To make that comparison, wouldn’t we need to see McDavid’s best 82 instead of MacKinnon’s?
dirtydanglez
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i remember when avs fans didnt think he had what it takes to be a #1 center. getting a sports psychologist and training with crosby did wonders for him.
nah he'll never be on mcdavids level. he just doesn't see the game as well as mcdavid. that said he's the clear cut 2nd best forwards in the game. he'll likely have a better career than mcdavid for the simple reason that colorado's front office is worlds better than edmontons front office.
What 5 seasons did Jagr have that were better than Crosby's 2006-07 or 2013-14? Maybe a few, but not 5.
T REX
Registered User
- Feb 28, 2013
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Pace is a fake number. You either played the games or you didn't. Pace is an imaginary number. Howevery many points you scored in a season IS your score. You cannot EXTRAPOLATE and auto-ASSUME that player would have scored X based on a "pace". Why does this keep happening?
you're misunderstanding the point of the post. I literally say at the beginning the reason he's not unanimaously considered on the crosby/jagr tier is BECAUSE he hasn't played full 82 game seasons. He plays/performs at that tier based on the pace he's played each season but without actually completing/doing it for full seasons is the reason it's not cemented.
in terms of your last question, you're literally on a forum where it's supposed to encourage hypotheticals and discussion, if you can't handle the discussion that includes pace then i dont know what this forum is for. Points per game is literally a stat used to create discussion (e.g. Lemieux's career totals IF he had played the same amount of games as Gretz, etc) for hypotheticals.
my post in here earlier does sort of that, it looks at the last 8 (including this one) seasons to compare
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tarheelhockey
Offside Review Specialist
It keeps happening at least in part because you’ve got seasons like 2020 and 2021 which were shortened, so you need some other way of representing how everyone played in those seasons. It wouldn’t be very helpful to say 2019 Kucherov > 2020 Draisaitl > 2021 McDavid just because their point totals were 128, 110 and 105 respectively.
The same principle holds when a player gets injured. Does anyone actually think Jamie Benn was the better scorer than Crosby when he won his scoring title?
McShogun99
Registered User
After he retires. He's on pace to be the best Nord/Av of all time.
Probably. I'm almost ready to say he's surpassed Forsberg, but if MacKinnon just falls apart and sucks the rest of his career, that will hurt his legacy and perhaps won't be seen above Forsberg.
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