MacKinnon has 150 points in his last 82 games

[MarchessaultCantRead]

Here is what McDavid has done in the playoffs. I threw in some MacKinnon comparables for the lols & some context.

3rd all-time pts/game

Only Gretzky & Lemieux produce more on a per-game basis.

Won the MVP on a losing team

MacKinnon didn't even win MVP on a WINNING team (let that sink in)

Led playoffs in scoring twice despite only reaching the finals once???

Sounds impossible but it's true. Crosby has led the playoffs in scoring once and he has reached the finals 4 times. MacKinnon finished 9 points behind McDavid in scoring during that year despite playing 4 more games.

Now I know none of that is as impressive as MacKinnon getting 1G + 1A in that clutch game 6 performance, but hey at least it's something.

You forgot to mention that the Avs and MacKinnon just recently swept your god McDavid in the playoffs.

MacKinnon has never been swept in his entire career!

A whopping 13 points in 12 games shows that McDavid is off to a great start again this year!

 

[Regal]

Kucherovs 4 point win last year I rank as the 3rd best season in the salary cap era, or 2nd best if you don't count 2020. The margin that you lead by is a factor, it is obviously not the only or most important factor... Did I imply that it was?

"Piece of trivia"

Yes, McDavid being the only player besides Gretzky, Lemieux & Gordie Howe to lead the league in goals/assists is a random piece of trivia. Certainly not a relevant factor at all for comparing how someone's season was. My mistake

Want some more trivia? Gretzky had more 200 point seasons (4), than seasons where he led the league in goals & assists (3). Not a relevant factor tho

It’s hard to do because you need both an amazing season and you need to not have another player randomly beat you in one of the categories. It’s essentially putting extra stock in an individual’s season simply because of how a couple other players performed in that season and extra stock because the player is balanced in terms of goals and assists.

I would argue that your Gretzky example shows how little it means if we’re talking about similarly productive seasons. No one downgrades his 215 point season because he didn’t lead also lead the league in goals.

 

[Muffin]

Here is what McDavid has done in the playoffs. I threw in some MacKinnon comparables for the lols & some context.

3rd all-time pts/game

Only Gretzky & Lemieux produce more on a per-game basis.

Won the MVP on a losing team

MacKinnon didn't even win MVP on a WINNING team (let that sink in)

Led playoffs in scoring twice despite only reaching the finals once???

Sounds impossible but it's true. Crosby has led the playoffs in scoring once and he has reached the finals 4 times. MacKinnon finished 9 points behind McDavid in scoring during that year despite playing 4 more games.

Now I know none of that is as impressive as MacKinnon getting 1G + 1A in that clutch game 6 performance, but hey at least it's something.

Cool how many championships did those result in? Ask McDavid how much those mean to him?

 

[crowfish]

It’s hard to do because you need both an amazing season and you need to not have another player randomly beat you in one of the categories. It’s essentially putting extra stock in an individual’s season simply because of how a couple other players performed in that season and extra stock because the player is balanced in terms of goals and assists.

I would argue that your Gretzky example shows how little it means if we’re talking about similarly productive seasons. No one downgrades his 215 point season because he didn’t lead also lead the league in goals.

Getting 1st place is not random... I don't understand what point you are trying to make? Yes IF someone had more goals/assists than McDavid in 2022 then he wouldn't have achieved this feat, but they didn't and that is the point. There is no punishment for McDavids accomplishment because someone COULD have had more goals/assists (but didn't). Like what exactly is the point you are trying to make?

I assume the spirit of what you are saying is that you could in theory have a 99.9% season in either category without winning either/both, which is true, but you could also use the same logic that if you have a 99.9% point production season you do not get to win the Art Ross either. Is it unlucky? Not really, just how things are. Lets put it this way, if you are an extreme specialist one way or the other, than you will not be able to do what McDavid did (aka Ovechkin, Matthews etc). But that doesn't make what McDavid did less impressive. And I would argue the fact that the ONLY players to ever do this feat (besides McDavid) happen to be the consensus 3 greatest forwards of all-time (Gretzky, Lemieux, Howe) makes it less of a "random" sort of achievement.

You forgot to mention that the Avs and MacKinnon just recently swept your god McDavid in the playoffs.

MacKinnon has never been swept in his entire career!

A whopping 13 points in 12 games shows that McDavid off to a great start again this year!

I like how you say MacKinnon has never been swept as if that means anything, teams get swept, not individual players lol. I feel embarrassed for you that I need to point this out.

 

[John Mandalorian]

I stand corrected. 2nd round in 2023. Great job Nate!

Great job flexing your “knowledge”.

 

[Toby91ca]

Getting 1st place is not random... I don't understand what point you are trying to make? Yes IF someone had more goals/assists than McDavid in 2022 then he wouldn't have achieved this feat, but they didn't and that is the point. There is no punishment for McDavids accomplishment because someone COULD have had more goals/assists (but didn't). Like what exactly is the point you are trying to make?

I think the idea of leading the league in both goals and assists is that it's more of a cool achievement as it is something special in the sense that it means your year was better than years where you only led in one of those categories for example.

Gretzky's 1986 season was presented as the example. He lead the league in scoring 215pts to #2 at 141 (Lemieux), but he only had 52 goals....does that make it not as good of a season as McDavid's 2023 where he lead in both? Would his season be better if he scored 69 goals and 195pts instead of 215pts? It's always hard though as you could make the case that Gretzky had a better year the following season even though he only scored 183pts.....but that was ~70% better than #2.

 

[crowfish]

Great job flexing your “knowledge”.

I am guessing something I said triggered you, and since you have no rebuttal you jump on a small mistake from a post I spent 5 seconds on. If I was saying anything important I would have double-checked my facts. MacKinnon making it to round 2 makes zero difference to the spirit of that post anyways, which I am sure you already know.

 

[authentic]

Does he also have to wear #97?!

MacKinnon is the better player in the playoffs, which is the only thing that matters for players of that caliber.

Actually quite the opposite there. When has MacKinnon gone over 2 points per game or even approached 40 points in a playoff run?

 

[crowfish]

I think the idea of leading the league in both goals and assists is that it's more of a cool achievement as it is something special in the sense that it means your year was better than years where you only led in one of those categories for example.

Gretzky's 1986 season was presented as the example. He lead the league in scoring 215pts to #2 at 141 (Lemieux), but he only had 52 goals....does that make it not as good of a season as McDavid's 2023 where he lead in both? Would his season be better if he scored 69 goals and 195pts instead of 215pts? It's always hard though as you could make the case that Gretzky had a better year the following season even though he only scored 183pts.....but that was ~70% better than #2.

Being the best in the league at both goal scoring & playmaking in the same season is something special. If it wasn't special it would not be one of the rarest feats in the sport and exclusively only done by GOAT level forwards. It is not something that automatically makes your season superior to anyone who didn't do it, but it's at LEAST a tiebreaker for close seasons.

So to answer your example: McDavid's 2022-23 was not close to as good as Gretzkys 215 point year. I do however think that Gretzkys 212-point season with 92 goals & 120 assists was better than his 215-point season. I do not know the exact threshold, but more goals are worth some trade-off of overall points. Leading all 3 is worth some small tradeoff of overall points as well, because I know if McDavid gets 155 this year but doesn't win the Rocket as well, there is no way I would rank it above his 2022 season. I think most would agree with me on that.

Do you agree with the following hierarchy?

1. Leading the league in goals/assists/points
2. Leading the league in goals/points
3. Top 5 both goals/assists, but only leading points
4. Leading the league in assists/points
5. Leading the league in only points

 

[John Mandalorian]

I am guessing something I said triggered you, and since you have no rebuttal you jump on a small mistake from a post I spent 5 seconds on. If I was saying anything important I would have double-checked my facts. MacKinnon making it to round 2 makes zero difference to the spirit of that post anyways, which I am sure you already know.

No. Just leveling up to your petulant sarcasm. You went strong and you went wrong. Then you used sarcasm as a crutch to save face. Just throwing your sarcasm back at you.

 

[crowfish]

No. Just leveling up to your petulant sarcasm. You went strong and you went wrong. Then you used sarcasm as a crutch to save face. Just throwing your sarcasm back at you.

Something tells me you were extra motivated to throw that sarcasm back at me because you didn't like some of my playoff facts about McDavid & MacKinnon.

 

[nightonthesun]

This thread has become very dumb. Mackinnon is awesome. I love that time he won the Stanley Cup, and that other time he won the Hart Trophy.

 

[John Mandalorian]

Something tells me you were extra motivated to throw that sarcasm back at me because you didn't like some of my playoff facts about McDavid & MacKinnon.

You’re simply not worth that level of analysis. MacKinnon is great. McDavid is great. What are your even going on about?

 

[TheStatican]

The gap between 1st and 2nd in points is 100% relevant for comparing who had the better seasons. Even if you give MacKinnon 130 that year, that is still a 23 point lead. If MacKinnon gets 155 this year with Kucherov, McDavid & Kaprizov all with 140+, that means his season was not as dominant as McDavids 2022.

So, let me get this straight... your argument is that if more than one player has an all-time great season in the same year, it somehow diminishes their achievements compared to a year when only one player does it. Then tell me this; are Aaron Judge's and Shohei Ohtani's seasons somehow less historically significant because they happened in the same year? Literally no one would agree with you, NO ONE.

If your arguing that skilled players benefited from an easier to score environment in 2023-24 or this year compared to 2022-23 that's one thing - then lets have that argument then. But your argument essentially boils down to suggesting that the scoring environment is somehow tailored in such a specific way that only the top 2 or 3 scorers in the ENTIRE LEAGUE are benefiting from a scoring boost, while leaving everyone else unaffected. Care to expand on that? Did Kucherov and MacKinnon enter into a blood pact with a witch last year to secure a magical scoring boost last year? Or perhaps the league itself is conspiring to help them and McDavid out, sliding goalies with a cool 100k to widen their five-holes by an extra inch every time their teams face these players. Shameless, really.

This is type of ridiculousness that you are arguing for, instead of simply accepting that random probability and individual circumstance made it so that multiple players managed to have or will have all-time great and career defining years instead of just one. Clearly, when it comes to comparisons between all-time great seasons it’s completely irrelevant whether there was one or multiple outliers in a particular year.

 

[Video Nasty]

Weird. Most of the same culprits who fawn about Crosby’s 2013-2014 and its so called dominance (and of course partial seasons) are lifting up MacKinnon and downplaying McDavid’s 2022-2023. Wonder why that could be?

 

[crowfish]

So, let me get this straight... your argument is that if more than one player has an all-time great season in the same year, it somehow diminishes their achievements compared to a year when only one player does it. Then tell me this; are Aaron Judge's and Shohei Ohtani's seasons somehow less historically significant because they happened in the same year? Literally no one would agree with you, NO ONE.

If your arguing that skilled players benefited from an easier to score environment in 2023-24 or this year compared to 2022-23 that's one thing - then lets have that argument then. But your argument essentially boils down to suggesting that the scoring environment is somehow tailored in such a specific way that only the top 2 or 3 scorers in the ENTIRE LEAGUE are benefiting from a scoring boost, while leaving everyone else unaffected. Care to expand on that? Did Kucherov and MacKinnon enter into a blood pact with a witch last year to secure a magical scoring boost last year? Or perhaps the league itself is conspiring to help them and McDavid out, sliding goalies with a cool 100k to widen their five-holes by an extra inch every time their teams face these players. Shameless, really.

This is type of ridiculousness that you are arguing for, instead of simply accepting that random probability and individual circumstance made it so that multiple players managed to have or will have all-time great and career defining years instead of just one. Clearly, when it comes to comparisons between all-time great seasons it’s completely irrelevant whether there was one or multiple outliers in a particular year.

I love how outraged you made yourself with all these assumptions of things I am arguing for. I said dominance over the next closest player is relevant, and you go off on your soapbox about this absurd idea that it now means that I am arguing that multiple players cannot have historic years in the same year? Apply the smallest amount of good faith that you are not arguing with a literal tard before getting so worked up. Kathy Newman style "so your what your saying is" is very tilting.

 

[Regal]

Weird. Most of the same culprits who fawn about Crosby’s 2013-2014 and its so called dominance (and of course partial seasons) are lifting up MacKinnon and downplaying McDavid’s 2022-2023. Wonder why that could be?

Show your work

 

[Three On Zero]

Show your work

Mack weighs roughly 91KG(200lbs), now most kids in high school are able to deadlift 225lbs. So let’s assume most posters here are adults whom can lift more. It is a safe assumption that most here can in fact lift up MacKinnon

 

[SeanMoneyHands]

MacKinnon is a freak of nature. All his training in the summers with Crosby is paying off.

 

[TheStatican]

I love how outraged you made yourself with all these assumptions of things I am arguing for. I said dominance over the next closest player is relevant, and you go off on your soapbox about this absurd idea that it now means that I am arguing that multiple players cannot have historic years in the same year? Apply the smallest amount of good faith that you are not arguing with a literal tard before getting so worked up. Kathy Newman style "so your what your saying is" is very tilting.

No you simply lack any understand of the argument. It's quite simple; dominance over the next closest player is irrelevant if both of the top two players are outliners. Aka a Judge and Ohtani situation. Since you need more help understanding this rudimentary concept, the AI can assist you with it; https://chatgpt.com/c/67344b3f-7510-8001-8569-b522468563ac:

"Both arguments bring up compelling points, but Argument B presents a more nuanced and robust case overall. Here’s why:

Key Strengths of Each Argument​

1. Argument A's Position: Argument A focuses on the idea of relative dominance within a specific season. It claims that having a substantial points lead over second place indicates a truly standout season—one in which a player was not only exceptional but also uniquely far ahead of peers. By this reasoning, McDavid’s 2022 season, with a 23-point lead(projected) over the next highest scorer, was more impressive than a season in which several players score at a high level, because McDavid's dominance was more clearly established.
2. Argument B's Rebuttal and Depth: Argument B argues that having multiple elite performances in a given season does not lessen the significance of each player’s achievements. It suggests that measuring greatness solely by gaps between players overlooks factors like individual skill and league-wide trends. It raises a valid point by comparing with other sports, using Judge and Ohtani as examples of how contemporaneous excellence from multiple athletes does not diminish individual achievements. Argument B also challenges Argument A’s implicit assumption about scoring environments affecting only the top players, dismissing it as unrealistic and even sarcastically questioning its logic.

Evaluating Strength​

• Logic and Scope: Argument B’s perspective is broader and addresses both relative comparisons and absolute achievement. It refutes Argument A’s assumption that relative gaps determine a season’s significance, pointing out that an extraordinary season should stand on its own merits, irrespective of other players’ performance. It also avoids relying too heavily on arbitrary metrics (like scoring gaps), instead favoring a more contextual and probabilistic view on why multiple players can succeed simultaneously.
• Use of Sarcasm and Analogy: While Argument B uses humor and hyperbole (such as the “blood pact” or “witch” analogy), it effectively draws attention to the implausibility of selectively applied scoring boosts. This makes its case against cherry-picking statistics and highlights the randomness and context behind individual seasons.
• Counterexample Effectiveness: Argument B’s analogy to Aaron Judge and Shohei Ohtani is powerful because it shows how simultaneous great seasons are respected in other sports. This real-world parallel weakens the notion that only seasons with significant points gaps represent peak athletic performance, broadening the interpretation of what constitutes “dominance.”

Conclusion​

Argument B’s viewpoint is more convincing because it offers a well-rounded perspective on greatness, contextualizes individual performance against league-wide trends, and avoids arbitrary thresholds like point gaps as sole measures of excellence."



And there you have it my friend. Your only legitimate argument would have been to claim that the 2023-24 season was somehow an "easier scoring environment" for skilled players. Hence why Kucherov and MacKinnon were able to both score so much. Which would be a fascinating argument to put forward considering McDavid somehow managed to be less productive in this supposedly "easier scoring" landscape


The actual truth is that scoring wasn’t any easier for skilled players last season than it was the year prior. Not only do the overall scoring rates support that argument, but so does the distribution of points among skilled players.

​	total goals​	ES goals​	PP goals​	SH goals​	ENG goals​	OT goals​
2022-23​	8248​	6343​	1717​	250​	434​	207​
2023-24​	8086​	6222​	1661​	234​	431​	190​

Scoring was actually slightly down, even for those "easier goals" that skilled players tend to score a higher percentage of, but not to a significant amount.

And here are the totals put up by the Top 10, 20, 25 and 50 scorers in both seasons;

2022-23​	Gm​	G​	A​	Pts​	PPG​	​
Top 10​	802​	466​	681​	1147​	1.430​	​
Top 20​	1608​	842​	1246​	2088​	1.299​	​
Top 25​	2006​	1016​	1493​	2509​	1.251​	​
Top 50​	3973​	1774​	2659​	4433​	1.116​	​
​	​	​	​	​	​	​
2023-24​	Gm​	G​	A​	Pts​	PPG​	Difference​
Top 10​	808​	452​	712​	1164​	1.441​	+0.7%​
Top 20​	1609​	825​	1255​	2080​	1.293​	-0.4%​
Top 25​	2005​	945​	1556​	2501​	1.247​	-0.3%​
Top 50​	3960​	1669​	2713​	4382​	1.107​	-0.8%​

The evidence of it being a supposedly easier season to score points in, is severely lacking.
But by all means, continue to make your absurd claims without offering any factual proof to support them

 

[TruePowerSlave]

Kinda weak that the Avs have been able to advance past the 2nd round once with the best C & D combo in the league

 

[crowfish]

Here is the issue / strawman / whatever

"assumption that relative gaps determine a season’s significance"

I said it is relevant to compare the gap in production from 1st to 2nd, not that it "determines the significance", the latter is a much stronger and absolute claim. My true belief is It determines some amount of significance. Sorry if that is not black & white enough for you to throw into an AI analysis algorithm.

I will give you this: it is possible for the gap between 1st & 2nd to mean close to nothing in theory. You could set up some hypothetical example where I would agree it means nothing. But practically speaking, dominating on an outlier level relative to your peers in a season is almost certain to mean something.

Player A
-Historic season
-Nobody was close to matching production

Player B
-Historic season
-1 or more people had similar production

ChatGPT's analysis of the above comparison:

Player A's season stands out as truly unique, with nobody else even coming close to matching their level of production. This suggests they were in a league of their own, dominating their sport in a way that set a high bar for excellence that others couldn't touch.

Player B, while also having a historic season, had at least one or more players who were similarly productive. This suggests Player B's performance was remarkable, but it wasn't quite as singular or unmatched as Player A's. The presence of others with comparable numbers or achievements indicates a slightly more competitive landscape in terms of top-tier performances.

So, to summarize:

• Player A: A singular, unmatched historic season, setting a high benchmark.
• Player B: A historic season, but with some other players also near the same level of performance.

Those are not the same achievements, regardless of how much you want to deny that they are. ChatGPT agrees with me this time. Weird how we both were able to get chatGPT to support our arguments

And lastly, as a statistician, you better than anyone should understand how statistically unlikely it would be that I believe something that quote:

Literally no one would agree with you, NO ONE.

I mean what are the odds I believe something that all the other 8.2 billion humans on earth disagree with? You could have used probabilistic thinking like me to avoid wasting time in chatGPT with your strawman dunk.

 

[daver]

Do you agree with the following hierarchy?

1. Leading the league in goals/assists/points
2. Leading the league in goals/points
3. Top 5 both goals/assists, but only leading points
4. Leading the league in assists/points
5. Leading the league in only points

Everything requires context so going with a fixed hierarchy makes no sense.

What if the #2 player's goalscoring dominance was historically high? McDavid's GPG dominance was very good but not anything special like Ovechkin's, Stamkos or Matthews. In 10/11, Crosby was pacing for a dominant Art Ross win and a dominant Richard win but not the assist title.

What if the point total of #3, #4 and #5 is historically high?

And quality of linemates, strength of team, deployment should also be considered.

 

[FanCos]

Probably. I'm almost ready to say he's surpassed Forsberg, but if MacKinnon just falls apart and sucks the rest of his career, that will hurt his legacy and perhaps won't be seen above Forsberg.

For me, and I believe for the majority of the sensible folks, the most important stat is # of reverse hits per 60, so Foppa is arguably the greatest Av by a fair margin.

 

[Toby91ca]

Being the best in the league at both goal scoring & playmaking in the same season is something special. If it wasn't special it would not be one of the rarest feats in the sport and exclusively only done by GOAT level forwards. It is not something that automatically makes your season superior to anyone who didn't do it, but it's at LEAST a tiebreaker for close seasons.

So to answer your example: McDavid's 2022-23 was not close to as good as Gretzkys 215 point year. I do however think that Gretzkys 212-point season with 92 goals & 120 assists was better than his 215-point season. I do not know the exact threshold, but more goals are worth some trade-off of overall points. Leading all 3 is worth some small tradeoff of overall points as well, because I know if McDavid gets 155 this year but doesn't win the Rocket as well, there is no way I would rank it above his 2022 season. I think most would agree with me on that.

Do you agree with the following hierarchy?

1. Leading the league in goals/assists/points
2. Leading the league in goals/points
3. Top 5 both goals/assists, but only leading points
4. Leading the league in assists/points
5. Leading the league in only points

I don't disagree, I just don't think it's as magical as others I guess. I agree that his 212pt season was better than his 215pt season....only 3 pt difference but 40 more goals. I think his 205pt season is the best though due to number of games or the season he led number 2 by 70%....all have arguments.

On your list though of 1-5....generally speaking I'd agree, but it really depends when you compare different seasons.....numbers need to be added for context. I'm not quite sure if I'm fully on board with 4 being higher than 5 though. For 4 you need to not score very many goals, is that better than 5 where you aren't leading in assists, but you are more balanced? Example, is 15 goals and 85 assists (leader) better than 50 goals and 50 assists?