LW/RW Kaapo Kakko (2019, 2nd, NYR) Part 8

[Favin]

Both will most probably be fine and even good NHL players at some point. But neither is looking really exceptional at all. The point is that loads of people were claiming that they are exceptional or even generational prospects. Right now it looks pretty darn unlikely that either of them will ever be a truly exceptional superstar caliber player in the NHL. The guys who have become that have usually been pretty darn exceptional already as 18 year olds in the NHL. Kakko and Hughes are both VERY far away from that level.

Hughes is doing exactly what was expected of him when he was taken #1 overall. The consensus was that he would initially be 40-50 point player, but physically out-matched for a season or two. But as he matures and grows, he would ultimately settle in as point-producing 1C.

Kakko was billed as "NHL-ready" and expected to be much better his first year. We heard "plays against men" ad nauseam. And along with Makar, he was pre-season favorite for Calder.

Too early to project how future pans out, but only one of these guys hasn't lived up to expectations after seeing 1/2 a season.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Hughes is doing exactly what was expected of him when he was taken #1 overall. The consensus was that he would initially be 40-50 point player, but physically out-matched for a season or two. But as he matures and grows, he would ultimately settle in as point-producing 1C.

Kakko was billed as "NHL-ready" and expected to be much better his first year. We heard "plays against men" ad nauseam. And along with Makar, he was pre-season favorite for Calder.

Too early to project how future pans out, but only one of these guys hasn't lived up to expectations after seeing 1/2 a season.

This is pure fiction.

Can you produce the consensus that most expected 40-50 points from Hughes? I seem to remember most people expecting him to score in the 60 or so range, give or take a few. He’s also scoring under 40-50, so it was wrong, even if it was the consensus.

The people who talked about Kakko playing against men were the Devils fans talking in nonsensical strawmen. It was supposed to be some way to push back on the Hughes criticisms. And now we see that he would’ve been better off playing in a pro league last season or at least college hockey compared to another season of pond hockey.

I remember you having a stake in Hughes being some superstar. I remember you making some claims you couldn’t back up, and when pressed on it, you clammed you. I think nearly everyone with a stake in Kakko’s development, whether Finns or Rangers fans, will admit he hasn’t been as good as expected.

I see the exact opposite in relation to those who have a stake in Hughes development, and that includes you. I don’t see why anyone shouldn’t be able to admit both haven’t been as good as expected.

 

[Favin]

This is pure fiction.

Can you produce the consensus that most expected 40-50 points from Hughes? I seem to remember most people expecting him to score in the 60 or so range, give or take a few. He’s also scoring under 40-50, so it was wrong, even if it was the consensus.

There was a poll on this very site that had Hughes at ~48 points. Seems like it was in-line with what many experts were saying at the time.

The people who talked about Kakko playing against men were the Devils fans talking in nonsensical strawmen. It was supposed to be some way to push back on the Hughes criticisms. And now we see that he would’ve been better off playing in a pro league last season or at least college hockey compared to another season of pond hockey.

Ha. It was not Devils fans making the "plays against men" comment.

I remember you having a stake in Hughes being some superstar. I remember you making some claims you couldn’t back up, and when pressed on it, you clammed you. I think nearly everyone with a stake in Kakko’s development, whether Finns or Rangers fans, will admit he hasn’t been as good as expected.

I have no stake in Hughes or Kakko....I just frequently stated my view that I thought Hughes was clearly the best player in the draft class. And nothing has changed that view.

(I clammed me?)

I see the exact opposite in relation to those who have a stake in Hughes development, and that includes you. I don’t see why anyone shouldn’t be able to admit both haven’t been as good as expected.

Speed and size do not develop on similar trajectory. Guys can add size, learn to avoid physical play...but whether a player can play at the speed of the NHL usually gets exposed very early. If the game is too fast for a player, we often know in year one.

If there was a re-draft of 2019 today, I'd think Hughes would still be consensus #1. But not convinced Kakko would be consensus #2.

 

[teravaineSAROS]

If there was a re-draft of 2019 today, I'd think Hughes would still be consensus #1. But not convinced Kakko would be consensus #2.

What a joke. He could definitely end up not being the 2nd best prospect at the end of the day since these things are hard to predict but nobody drafted behind him has proven anything Kakko hasn't.

Him being NHL ready was a prediction based on size and him competing against men, not him being physically mature for his age.

Those aren't NHL ready legs lol. He'll grow into it.

 

[Section32]

If there was a re-draft of 2019 today, I'd think Hughes would still be consensus #1. But not convinced Kakko would be consensus #2.

They haven't even hit the halfway mark yet.

I am generally an even-minded Ranger fan that views the players in the organization very realistically.

(I only lose it occasionally with Devil and Islander fans. Few of can understand what it is like to have 3 NHL clubs in one metro city region. I live in southern CT now and we also get a reasonable amount of Boston fans as well. Brutal.)

Anyway, the coaching staff is not doing much to help Kakko out. He does look "off" and acknowledges he has not been good. Nevertheless, what he did last 18 months can't be ignored. He has been jerked around too much. He now plays on a line with 2 kids.

They have already lost one first rounder because of coaching decisions. Quinn worries me. Not Kakko. You don't do what he did in a full season and 3 tournaments and then just lose it.

He will probably need a long offseason off strength building and skating work before he finds his game. He just doesn't get enough ice time to work things out. Hughes has been given every chance to find himself. Just very different situations.

 

[Heckler81]

What a joke. He could definitely end up not being the 2nd best prospect at the end of the day since these things are hard to predict but nobody drafted behind him has proven anything Kakko hasn't.

Him being NHL ready was a prediction based on size and him competing against men, not him being physically mature for his age.

Those aren't NHL ready legs lol. He'll grow into it.

No wonder Kakko is slow, he has girl legs. I do not see one ounce of muscle on those flamingo legs.

With that said, once he builds up that lower body. He will be able to play like Jagr with the way he used to hold onto the puck and cycle. Kakko tries that now but he’s not strong enough or fast enough.

 

[Uncle Dru]

Speed and size do not develop on similar trajectory. Guys can add size, learn to avoid physical play...but whether a player can play at the speed of the NHL usually gets exposed very early. If the game is too fast for a player, we often know in year one.

If there was a re-draft of 2019 today, I'd think Hughes would still be consensus #1. But not convinced Kakko would be consensus #2.

Adjusting to the speed of the NHL is probably the most difficult aspect of a player develolment...especially for Europeans not used to playing on smaller ice.

Weird, nobody was questioning Kakko as the consensus #2 a month ago...

 

[Synergy27]

Busto Picko.

 

[135ace]

Adjusting to the speed of the NHL is probably the most difficult aspect of a player develolment...especially for Europeans not used to playing on smaller ice.

Weird, nobody was questioning Kakko as the consensus #2 a month ago...

Actually, I said it pre-draft that the real question is who should go 2OA. Hughes was always the clear 1OA, but all you homers tried to prop up Kakko. Guess what, just like I said the question should have been Dach v Byram v Kakko. Now that he's in the NHL Kakko's stock is dropping like a ton of bricks. He really doesn't belong in the NHL, but where should he be sent? Back to liiga? From how Kakko's transition has gone it looks like playing against North American boys is tougher than playing against Finnish men

 

[Kiekura]

Oh look. Devils fan talking shit about Kakko

 

[Uncle Dru]

Actually, I said it pre-draft that the real question is who should go 2OA. Hughes was always the clear 1OA, but all you homers tried to prop up Kakko. Guess what, just like I said the question should have been Dach v Byram v Kakko. Now that he's in the NHL Kakko's stock is dropping like a ton of bricks. He really doesn't belong in the NHL, but where should he be sent? Back to liiga? From how Kakko's transition has gone it looks like playing against North American boys is tougher than playing against Finnish men

You would think Hughes was in some other stratosphere...he has 2 more pts than Kakko playing sheltered minutes...

And what have Dach and Byram done to put them ahead of Kakko...?

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

There was a poll on this very site that had Hughes at ~48 points. Seems like it was in-line with what many experts were saying at the time.

Do you have a link?

Ha. It was not Devils fans making the "plays against men" comment.

Actually, it was.

I can remember a number of posts that tried to mock people who questioned where Hughes played hockey last year. These posts would often alternate capital and lowercase letters in a deranged manner that combined the words "plays against men" in some fashion.

Hughes clearly could've benefited last season from not playing junior hockey. He had the opportunity to play college hockey or in Europe, and chose to remain in the USHL. He's allowed to make that decision, but at the same time, people are then allowed to say he didn't prepare himself for the NHL as well as he could've.

I have no stake in Hughes or Kakko....I just frequently stated my view that I thought Hughes was clearly the best player in the draft class. And nothing has changed that view.

You absolutely do have a stake. Anyone who has read your posts or does a basic search can see what you said yourself. You are very high on Hughes, so of course you have a stake in him having a good rookie season. Thats why you are claiming against the prevailing thought that he's having a good rookie season.

You clammed up when you claimed something that wasn't true, you were asked to back it up, and you didn't. Here was the discussion. Unlike you, I back up claims I make.

C Jack Hughes - USNTDP (2019, 1st, NJD) Part 5

Speed and size do not develop on similar trajectory. Guys can add size, learn to avoid physical play...but whether a player can play at the speed of the NHL usually gets exposed very early. If the game is too fast for a player, we often know in year one.

If there was a re-draft of 2019 today, I'd think Hughes would still be consensus #1. But not convinced Kakko would be consensus #2.

I'm not convinced there would be any consensus in the 2019 draft. Thats what I said before the draft.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Actually, I said it pre-draft that the real question is who should go 2OA. Hughes was always the clear 1OA, but all you homers tried to prop up Kakko. Guess what, just like I said the question should have been Dach v Byram v Kakko. Now that he's in the NHL Kakko's stock is dropping like a ton of bricks. He really doesn't belong in the NHL, but where should he be sent? Back to liiga? From how Kakko's transition has gone it looks like playing against North American boys is tougher than playing against Finnish men

The lack of self awareness here is frightening.

Usually, when a point isn't in the favor of your interests, it's better to not make any point, at all, and settle for the fact that your opposing interests don't have a favorable argument right now either.

You, on the other hand, want to test that norm in debating because it's important to maintain an aggressive internet persona.

Do you think any Rangers fans care about Hughes play as much as you care about Kakko's?

 

[KirkAlbuquerque]

Oh look. Devils fan talking **** about Kakko

One of biggest trolls on HFboard, best to put him on ignore.

Anyway KK with 2 points tonight , off the goal scoring schneid too which is nice. Hopefully he keeps it up.

 

[Favin]

You clammed up when you claimed something that wasn't true, you were asked to back it up, and you didn't. Here was the discussion. Unlike you, I back up claims I make.

No, I didn't clam up. I responded to your question.

Many others told me about a "smarmy, whiny troll" who liked to engage pithy debates. And they suggested I not respond to them. I try my best to follow good advice. No one wants to read this cr*p.

 

[Favin]

He just doesn't get enough ice time to work things out. Hughes has been given every chance to find himself. Just very different situations.

Average Time on Ice (PP TOI)
Kakko 15:08 (2:49)
Hughes 15:58 (3;16)

They are getting similar amount of ice time and have had somewhat similar production. Relative to expectations for year one however, its hard to view them in same boat. Kakko was expected to be immediate impact guy. Hughes was expected to be better over long-run. While neither have been great, I'm am less worried about Hughes

Adjusting to the speed of the NHL is probably the most difficult aspect of a player develolment...especially for Europeans not used to playing on smaller ice.

Agree. For anyone really. Ask any young player, "what are biggest adjustments" and usually two things will be on everyone's list: The travel and the speed on-ice.

You would think Hughes was in some other stratosphere...he has 2 more pts than Kakko playing sheltered minutes...

And what have Dach and Byram done to put them ahead of Kakko...?

Hughes has been largely what he was expected to be as 165 lb rookie. The expectations for Kakko probably got a bit inflated pre-season, which I think make it more challenging for him now.

(also, I would still take Kakko over Dach, but Dach has looked better than I expected thus far).

 

[Kaako Kappo]

I wonder how much it affects your confidence when you realize your physique isn't there yet. I bet that kinda makes you not try as hard, seeing it as pointless.

 

[GeorgeKaplan]

I wonder how much it affects your confidence when you realize your physique isn't there yet. I bet that kinda makes you not try as hard, seeing it as pointless.

If that’s his attitude, that’s a way bigger problem than his physique

 

[Uncle Dru]

Hughes has been largely what he was expected to be as 165 lb rookie. The expectations for Kakko probably got a bit inflated pre-season, which I think make it more challenging for him now.

(also, I would still take Kakko over Dach, but Dach has looked better than I expected thus far).

Kakko was thought to be more NHL ready but in reality what had made him so effective pre-draft was his strength/puck possession skills...right now he's not strong enough to exploit that at the NHL level...he still needs to fill out.

Hughes putting on strength will obviously help him in a big way but at the same time his speed/elusiveness are his best skillsets and he's been able to use that already in the NHL.

 

[Heckler81]

One of biggest trolls on HFboard, best to put him on ignore.

Anyway KK with 2 points tonight , off the goal scoring schneid too which is nice. Hopefully he keeps it up.

Quinn is single handily killing Kakko’s confidence.

Kakko is finally having a good game and Quinn benches him in the 3rd because the ref calls a questionable penalty on Kakko.

How do you bench the kid after how well he’s doing?

 

[KirkAlbuquerque]

Quinn is single handily killing Kakko’s confidence.

Kakko is finally having a good game and Quinn benches him in the 3rd because the ref calls a questionable penalty on Kakko.

How do you bench the kid after how well he’s doing?

Yeah I feel like Kakko will be having more success under a different coach as well, even if he has a lot of things to improve.

 

[CLW]

Yeah I feel like Kakko will be having more success under a different coach as well, even if he has a lot of things to improve.

To use a WJC 2020 comparison. Quinn, even if he has many positive personal qualities, is a hockey troglodyte who plays simplistic Team USA hockey. Kakko is brought up to play Team Finland hockey. A vast difference. That's not to say that Quinn cannot teach Kakko technical and tactical aspects about playing in a smaller rink, but overall the hockey thinking is not an improvement.

 

[Rangerfan4life90]

Actually, I said it pre-draft that the real question is who should go 2OA. Hughes was always the clear 1OA, but all you homers tried to prop up Kakko. Guess what, just like I said the question should have been Dach v Byram v Kakko. Now that he's in the NHL Kakko's stock is dropping like a ton of bricks. He really doesn't belong in the NHL, but where should he be sent? Back to liiga? From how Kakko's transition has gone it looks like playing against North American boys is tougher than playing against Finnish men

Didn't you say Hughes would put up like 80 points and Kakko like half that? Lol, you're a joke. Please go back into hiding again, thanks.

 

[TGWL]

Quinn is single handily killing Kakko’s confidence.

Kakko is finally having a good game and Quinn benches him in the 3rd because the ref calls a questionable penalty on Kakko.

How do you bench the kid after how well he’s doing?

What was questionable about the call? Kakko looked gassed, tried to get to the puck first, couldn't, then grabbed his way into a penalty.

 

[Dijock94]

This thread is rediculous. This kid and Hughes are both almost half way through their rookie seasons at 18 years old and yet their careers are set in stone