LW Patrik Laine - Tappara, Liiga (2016 Draft) VI

[psycho_dad*]

Emotionally invested and thinking he's actually the better player are two different things.

They can be, but they can also be cause and effect. Choise-supportive bias.

It's very common. It all depends on the person doing the assessment, how self-analytical and self aware they are.

"For example, if a person chooses option A instead of option B, they are likely to ignore or downplay the faults of option A while amplifying those of option B. Conversely, they are also likely to notice and amplify the advantages of option A and not notice or de-emphasize those of option B."

 

[IronHalen]

They can be, but they can also be cause and effect. Choise-supportive bias.

It's very common. It all depends on the person doing the assessment, how self-analytical and self aware they are.

"For example, if a person chooses option A instead of option B, they are likely to ignore or downplay the faults of option A while amplifying those of option B. Conversely, they are also likely to notice and amplify the advantages of option A and not notice or de-emphasize those of option B."

It's cool that you can copy and paste some psychology facts straight out of wikipedia but I don't see anyone trying to downplay Laine(B) just to pump up Matthews(A). People are choosing option A solely because option A is preferred and seen as better overall.

And I don't want to turn this into another vs. thread I'm just trying to clarify why Leafs fans want Matthews.

 

[Halberdier]

http://www.tsn.ca/video/babcock-opens-up-about-matthews-marner-and-leafs-future~870947

I don't really see the extreme Matthews pumping that the previous poster was talking about.

Really?

Then I can't think what to say.

That reporter was pushing AM so hard that even Babcock noted that many times. And when the reporter tried to praise AM, Babcock noted that there are 3 special players in the draft.

The single 1st pick draft-related that was not 100% about AM was quite probably about AM originally, but switched to "three special players" AM, PL and JP since Babcock was constantly refusing to follow that AM-only narrative.

That selling started at about 4 mins from the beginning, and continued near the end about meeting with AM. That latest 1OA AM AINEC-question actually emerged quite shocking response by Babcock, who basically told the reporter some answers he really was not asking about, nor pleased with.

 

[IronHalen]

Really?

Then I can't think what to say.

That reporter was pushing AM so hard that even Babcock noted that many times. And when the reporter tried to praise AM, Babcock noted that there are 3 special players in the draft.

The single 1st pick draft-related that was not 100% about AM was quite probably about AM originally, but switched to "three special players" AM, PL and JP since Babcock was constantly refusing to follow that AM-only narrative.

That selling started at about 4 mins from the beginning, and continued near the end about meeting with AM. That latest 1OA AM AINEC-question actually emerged quite shocking response by Babcock, who basically told the reporter some answers he really was not asking about, nor pleased with.

That is not true at all. Also, what does Babcock gain by not talking about the top three when asked about the #1 pick?

 

[ijuka]

That is not true at all. Also, what does Babcock gain by not talking about the top three when asked about the #1 pick?

Every post you've recently made here can be summarized as "Auston Matthews is amazing and it's silly to even doubt he'd go #1".

Could you please kindly go back to the AM thread and stop derailing and trolling this one?

I mean, at 5 mins in I was thinking "Wow, this guy's so rude to Babcock, acting like it'd be stupid to not draft Matthews. Who does he think he is?" and you don't see this? Seriously, can you stop talking about Matthews here.

 

[IronHalen]

Every post you've recently made here can be summarized as "Auston Matthews is amazing and it's silly to even doubt he'd go #1".

Could you please kindly go back to the AM thread and stop derailing and trolling this one?

I mean, at 5 mins in I was thinking "Wow, this guy's so rude to Babcock, acting like it'd be stupid to not draft Matthews. Who does he think he is?" and you don't see this? Seriously, can you stop talking about Matthews here.

I'm not trying to troll this thread.. Sorry if anything I've posted has offended anyone. I'm trying to figure out why whenever Matthews is brought up Laine supporters take it as an attack on their guy and an attempt to devalue him when in reality Leafs fans don't care at all who the media is trying to pump up. We just want the best player.

 

[psycho_dad*]

People are choosing option A solely because option A is preferred and seen as better overall.

And I don't want to turn this into another vs. thread I'm just trying to clarify why Leafs fans want Matthews.

I know that's why you want Matthews. You are convinced that he is the best. What I am arguing is the "why" and that part can and has influenced a lot of TML fans. Denying it is denying human nature.

What came first, fans certainty that Matthews was BPA, or TML and media announcing Matthews as a leaf being a done deal? People who locked their answers in before this tournament started are not analytical. Their lack of interest in newly available data shows bias. It's not a reasonable position to lock your answer when all the data is not in.

What if Laine pots 2 goals against Canada or wins the scoring title and MVP and gold? For you I know the answer. Matthew AINEC. Because you're not interested in evidence to the contrary, in fact it irks you that people consider the guy that has out produced and out won Matthews since December.

There are people in the other thread admitting emotional investment in getting Matthews because they have wanted a #1 c for ages. I respect that position, they know why they want this player and can see their own bias. Their reasoning is understandable and honest. The AINEC people who say Matthews is head and shoulders above are the problem. They don't allow reason in their thinking but still claim to be right without a doubt.

It's not clear cut. Positionally it is but BPA is not favoring Matthews at all right now.

 

[IronHalen]

I know that's why you want Matthews. You are convinced that he is the best. What I am arguing is the "why" and that part can and has influenced a lot of TML fans. Denying it is denying human nature.

What came first, fans certainty that Matthews was BPA, or TML and media announcing Matthews as a leaf being a done deal? People who locked their answers in before this tournament started are not analytical. Their lack of interest in newly available data shows bias. It's not a reasonable position to lock your answer when all the data is not in.

What if Laine pots 2 goals against Canada or wins the scoring title and MVP and gold? For you I know the answer. Matthew AINEC. Because you're not interested in evidence to the contrary, in fact it irks you that people consider the guy that has out produced and out won Matthews since December.

Then thats great for Laine and he had an awesome tournament!
Winnipeg is going to be getting an awesome player

 

[Joe MacMillan]

What came first, fans certainty that Matthews was BPA, or TML and media announcing Matthews as a leaf being a done deal? People who locked their answers in before this tournament started are not analytical. Their lack of interest in newly available data shows bias. It's not a reasonable position to lock your answer when all the data is not in.

You're reading too much into it. Now that Matthews to TML is a very likely scenario if the ranking lists are to believe, it's completely logical for TML fans and Toronto media to pimp up Matthews at the expense of any other draftee Laine included.

There isn't necessarily any bias involved, the balance of interest has just shifted towards Matthews for logical reasons. Why would TML fans have any interest in hyping up a player they expect to not become a Leaf? It seems most of them still acknowledge Laine will become a great player, so they aren't being dishonest to themselves nor anyone else, they are just more vocal about their excitement over drafting Matthews, because that will most likely end up actually happening. There's nothing illogical about it.

 

[psycho_dad*]

Then thats great for Laine and he had an awesome tournament!
Winnipeg is going to be getting an awesome player

Yup. Even when he has outproduced all the greats who previously attended the tournament at young age and still could beat Crosbys production when he was older....you'll wish him luck somewhere else but your team because you can get a guy who was great in NLA regular season and very good but not the better one in U-20, WHC.

 

[Cor]

Just an FYI. The Leafs had their final scouting meetings and compiled their draft lists before the lottery.

Shanahan said on the show I believe that they had their final meetings that week.

The WJC is doubtful to change who they are picking. As it shouldn't.

 

[ijuka]

I'm really looking forward to the Canada game. It's the first actually important match in the entire tournament so I'm curious to see whether that affects Laine positively or negatively.

 

[IFK]

Just an FYI. The Leafs had their final scouting meetings and compiled their draft lists before the lottery.

Shanahan said on the show I believe that they had their final meetings that week.

The WJC is doubtful to change who they are picking. As it shouldn't.

This is a joke. What they (Shanahan, Babs, Lou, Hunter, Vuori etc.) do in WHC if they have already final meeting. Babs already say that they look this things when they have all information what they have gathered, later. There is still also Memorial Cup and about 100 prospect will come physical tests in June. I think it would be first time in history that some team have final meeting before season ends, that is just laughable and i haven't heard that from Shanahan so can you give some reliable information for that?

 

[Cor]

This is a joke. What they (Shanahan, Babs, Lou, Hunter, Vuori etc.) do in WHC if they have already final meeting. Babs already say that they look this things when they have all information what they have gathered, later. There is still also Memorial Cup and about 100 prospect will come physical tests in June. I think it would be first time in history that some team have final meeting before season ends, that is just laughable and i haven't heard that from Shanahan so can you give some reliable information for that?

Shanahan said it during the lottery show. They had their draft meetings and had their lists essentially complete.

Just some minor shifting in all likelihood.

 

[IFK]

Shanahan said it during the lottery show. They had their draft meetings and had their lists essentially complete.

Just some minor shifting in all likelihood.

No he didn't say that, every teams Presidents and GM's say like Shanahan that they have meeting when they know where they will be drafted, he didn't say final meeting to draft. Are you even serious? Every NHL team have final meetings draft week, when they have gathered all information and all scouts and crew is there, in that week they still interview players and then day before draft they made final decision. And this is most important draft what Toronto have had in years, so they will turn all stone and all information to be a sure they pick right, not only first, but they have more than 10 picks this year, so those are important too. You are so out of the game if you think they have final meeting few weeks back. Maybe you should wake up your bias to AM.

 

[IronHalen]

I can't to hear the excuses made when Laine puts up 20ish goals and is a -30 in his rookie season.

 

[AWSAA]

As for Ferraro, he was the first person to criticize Florida for selecting Barkov over Jones (had no problem with Drouin going #3). Now he'd probably admit Barkov should've gone #1.... so lesson is, just give it time.

 

[Hokinaittii]

You are right that Laine doesn't have similar kind of agile skating but it still doesn't mean Laine can't hog the puck for 15 seconds and make a play in the end. You are forgetting Laine's ability to protect the puck with his size and skill set. And as you could imagine, he has done it plenty of times in the regular season in Liiga and even in the Liiga playoffs.

I can provide you videos if you like.

 

[ijuka]

I can't to hear the excuses made when Laine puts up 20ish goals and is a -30 in his rookie season.

That's why I don't really want the Leafs to draft him, leafs would lack a proper first line center and he wouldn't get proper support. Everyone's unhappy.

I really would be shocked if he did that poorly with Jets, however.

 

[psycho_dad*]

Yeah they even named it as one-man cycle on TSN and now you are using it as an example of his excellence. With the same created word. No influence?

I've seen Laine have those shifts in OT. Surprisingly, not on TSN with the narrative of "watch Laine do a one man cycle".

They are signs of a great player along with everything they do, but to think only Matthews possesses this ability is ignorant.

Fact remains, Laine has outproduced Matthews in international tournaments when it matters, he has shown game breaking/tying ability beyond anyone I have seen at that age on this level.

I don't have the slightest problem with TML drafting Matthews, it makes sense for their needs. But calling Matthews BPA, especially when people throw in the "AINEC" is not a sensible position. He is rock solid in every way, he makes sense for Leafs needs. That is the case for Matthews. Advertising him as BPA AINEC is horse **** bias that doesn't consider evidence at all.

They have the same amount of bad turnovers in this tournament (yet one is seen by many as a Kopitar level defensive player, and the other one as a one dimensional tool lol), and Laine has double the points. Laine was the better player in WJC, and Laine was the better player in playoffs, and it was in a much better league.

How much evidence does one need to determine BPA? Matthews for Leafs is BPA for their much needed position, since Laine is not a center. If Laine was a center and the numbers and performances were like they are now between them, he'd absolutely be BPA and there would be no discussion.

Things can still change, there's a couple of games at least left for these guys this season.

 

[ijuka]

A friendly reminder that Teemu Ramstedt(Look him up if you aren't familiar) said that the French national team "might just barely be good enough to be in Finnish elite league, but would have absolutely no hope of making the playoffs". So remember what kind of opposition we're talking about here. He's Auvitu's teammate.

 

[psycho_dad*]

Well, not really. Everything's just a means to prevent goals and score goals. Those are the only two things that matter.

That is it in a nutshell.

While they will enjoy the intangibles and little things in Toronto, Jets fans are going to be seeing more scoring and clutch. Which results into more winning. Because that's what the available data suggests.

 

[Joe MacMillan]

A friendly reminder that Teemu Ramstedt(Look him up if you aren't familiar) said that the French national team "might just barely be good enough to be in Finnish elite league, but would have absolutely no hope of making the playoffs". So remember what kind of opposition we're talking about here.

Yet the French team was the toughest of the opponents against whom Laine has scored points.

So there's that.

 

[IronHalen]

That is it in a nutshell.

While they will enjoy the intangibles and little things in Toronto, Jets fans are going to be seeing more scoring and clutch. Which results into more winning. Because that's what the available data suggests.

Available data suggests that scoring more goals than you allow results in more winning. Scoring goals are only part of it.

 

[ijuka]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0HvVBg59RM 4:05 - 5:20 here for some Laine highlights during an overtime. Extended puck possession or what do you call it? 8:21 -> 8:36 would be another.