LW Patrik Laine - Tappara, Liiga (2016 Draft) IX

[agent082]

I think he is the most hated player on these boards at the moment.

Overhyping brings counter reaction. The same thing happened to Vatanen on Ducks boards, when there was keerole singalong hypetrain thread. After that his every mistake were looked with magnifying class.

 

[LeafFever]

At this point in time, the shot / goal scoring and physical game. I'd also say hand-eye coordination in terms of intercepting and handling aerial pucks. McDavid is better at other things both offensively and defensively. But he outscored McDavid in WHC and his u-20s was better than both of McDavid's, for instance. It's not like it's a Mount Everest.

Let's be clear, 80%+ of all scouts are saying Laine is #2 in THIS draft. Now you're claiming he's better than McDavid.

 

[MardyBum]

It's best he goes to Winnipeg. The Toronto media will eat Laine alive. Matthews is looking so much more mature. I get it he's "Dull", but that's not a bad thing.
Yes, the NHL needs more guys with personality, but Laine is being annoying more than anything. His entire routine is how great he is. He's not offering anything else.
Ironically with these comments, Laine is doing everything he can to not be picked #1. There's no way Shanahan/Lou/Hunter can be impressed with his shtick.

Who's annoyed? The media's loving it, his teammates from all indications love him. The only people getting annoyed are certain hfboards posters.

Why they don't just ignore this thread if it's getting them so flustered I'll never understand.

 

[Gsus]

.

It's not what he said is wrong. It's just that things like that aren't really said by prospects in any sport, especially hockey... He said he's going to reach Ovechkin's level within 5 years and thinks he can be the best player in the world. That's fine to think that, but to say that, especially to the media, is another thing entirely.

I just don't get how big his comments have risen. If you're the Jets, you should be very excited. A player that says these things has a lot of confidence and I'm sure he doesn't fail and that means hard work in the future.

I would understand this if he said that he's better than Ovy already, but he did say he thinks he'll get to the same level in 5 (five) years.

 

[MardyBum]

I think that Laine has the capability of surpassing McDavid in certain aspects. He already has some strengths over McDavid.

Laine's goal is being a better overall player than McDavid so I'll have faith in him.

Come on.

I'd trade the #2 pick for McDavid in half a second.

His only strength over McDavid at this point is his shot. McDavid blows him away everywhere else.

 

[ijuka]

Let's be clear, 80%+ of all scouts are saying Laine is #2 in THIS draft. Now you're claiming he's better than McDavid.

If your only argument is relying on the words of an authority instead of forming your own argument using things you have actually seen happen(Both of my comparisons of Laine's performances in comparison to McDavid's at WCs and WJC-20s are undeniable facts), that's not very convincing. Especially as I said that McDavid is a better player overall at this point in time.

 

[93LEAFS]

If your only argument is relying on the words of an authority instead of forming your own argument using things you have actually seen happen(Both of my comparisons of Laine's performances in comparison to McDavid's at WCs and WJC-20s are undeniable facts), that's not very convincing. Especially as I said that McDavid is a better player overall at this point in time.

I'd rather take the guy who has done rarely seen things in the OHL in a league that produces a bunch of the leagues best talent, then a guy who couldn't outproduce stars like Granlund in Liiga.

 

[Lempo]

It's not what he said is wrong. It's just that things like that aren't really said by prospects in any sport, especially hockey... He said he's going to reach Ovechkin's level within 5 years and thinks he can be the best player in the world. That's fine to think that, but to say that, especially to the media, is another thing entirely.

It's quite sad though that that's what the media is asking him questions about and then reporting it, and it somehow twists into like Laine himself was going around saying stuff like this without pause. Bless him for not being a regular variety PR robot, though.

Many Finns are all in with the first ever chance of getting their guy picked 1OA, many Leafs fans are all in with the 1OA pick and chance for extremely good 1C. Shame really about the riptide and both sides using each other for some kind of insane negative echo chamber.

 

[ijuka]

I'd rather take the guy who has done rarely seen things in the OHL in a league that produces a bunch of the leagues best talent, then a guy who couldn't outproduce stars like Granlund in Liiga.

Of course. I'm not saying Laine is better. I'm saying that it's not Mount Everest, the difference. Might even be a mountain, but a smaller one.

I am saying Laine is better than Granlund was at the same age though, for the record...


BTW, is myself overly hyping Laine a worse thing to do than downplaying his achievements? I don't think I've actually ever said that Matthews is a bad player or even not a very good player, even if I think that Laine is or at least will be better.

 

[FinPanda]

You said that he was the most hated player on the boards. That's not true and it seems to be quite the opposite. Even Matthews gets more 'hate' than Laine. I don't mean to lump all Finnish posters into one group but a lot of you guys have been ridiculous.

It's not what he said is wrong. It's just that things like that aren't really said by prospects in any sport, especially hockey... He said he's going to reach Ovechkin's level within 5 years and thinks he can be the best player in the world. That's fine to think that, but to say that, especially to the media, is another thing entirely.

I don't think Matthews is hated as he is by far the best player in this draft and his game is so good that he will be one of the greats of all time. His game is nearly perfect and he has no weaknesses. Everyone here thinks he is a beast. He is is more mature than Laine in every way. <- That was maybe too much but mostly it is correct.

And a lot of us? Mostly it has been few guys who has been saying thing like Laine is the next Lemieux or Ovechkin many times.

 

[LeafFever]

If your only argument is relying on the words of an authority instead of forming your own argument using things you have actually seen happen(Both of my comparisons of Laine's performances in comparison to McDavid's at WCs and WJC-20s are undeniable facts), that's not very convincing. Especially as I said that McDavid is a better player overall at this point in time.

I don't know more than scouts and am not pretending to. How is not convincing stating the vast majority of professional scouts are saying Laine isn't even the best this year?
If you think you know more than all those scouts congrats. Why aren't you a scout?

 

[93LEAFS]

Of course. I'm not saying Laine is better. I'm saying that it's not Mount Everest, the difference. Might even be a mountain, but a smaller one.

I am saying Laine is better than Granlund was at the same age though, for the record...


BTW, is myself overly hyping Laine a worse thing to do than downplaying his achievements? I don't think I've actually ever said that Matthews is a bad player or even not a very good player, even if I think that Laine is or at least will be better.

I agree he is a significantly better prospect than Granlund, and by a wide margin. You point to areas where Laine has outproduced McDavid, but ignored league play where guys like Barkov and Granlund have outproduced him. What McDavid did in the OHL last year at 17 has only been matched by Lindros in the last 30 years. This is a league that produced many of the leagues best players (Stamkos, Tavares, Thornton, Seguin, Kane, etc), and Matthews outproduced guys like Eichel, Kane, Parise, and Kessel at the USNDP. They all have amazing accomplishments in regards to the leagues and systems they played in. I don't think trying to put accomplishments in perspective is downplaying them, its trying to have a reasonable discussion.

 

[ijuka]

I agree he is a significantly better prospect than Granlund, and by a wide margin. You point to areas where Laine has outproduced McDavid, but ignored league play where guys like Barkov and Granlund have outproduced him. What McDavid did in the OHL last year at 17 has only been matched by Lindros in the last 30 years. This is a league that produced many of the leagues best players (Stamkos, Tavares, Thornton, Seguin, Kane, etc), and Matthews outproduced guys like Eichel, Kane, Parise, and Kessel at the USNDP. They all have amazing accomplishments in regards to the leagues and systems they played in. I don't think trying to put accomplishments in perspective is downplaying them, its trying to have a reasonable discussion.

That's because they haven't played in the same league. WJC and WC is what I've been using is simply because they all have played those leagues at similar ages. The world cup as well as the beginning of next season will tell us a lot more.

I don't think that Laine will ever have as nimble skating as McDavid, McDavid is probably the best overall skater in all of NHL. But I don't think that it's completely impossible he'll eventually become a better or even a comparable player, utilizing his own strengths.

 

[Ippenator]

How did you come to that conclusion? No one has been hating on Laine at all. Just the Finnish homers that are saying insane things. Probably don't even watch NHL hockey but claim he is better than Ovechkin was. I wish you could realize how crazy of a statement that is. Ovie when he came into the league was one of the most dominant and exciting players I've ever seen. His game was tailor made for the NHL as well because he was extremely fast and physical. He was a player that didn't need time and space as he could create his own.

In addition, even prospects in the NBA and NFL drafts (who are a lot more outspoken and confident) don't even say the kind of things that Laine is saying right now, so it should be understandable why it's raising some eyebrows.

You guys really see what you want to see I guess.

For sure here is exactly hate towards Laine. So what if some of us Finns are excited about Laine and hyping him? So are you North Americans on your McDavids's and Matthews's. Laine is the best U18 prospect that Finland has ever had and he just had the best season by achievements that ANY U18 player has ever had. When a player has had that kind of a season as an 18 year old, it makes really no sense for some people saying in an angry tone, that no, he definitely will never become as good or better than Ovechkin. This kind of approach tells exactly that these people don't like Laine and they don't want him to become so good as some Laine fans are hoping for and what Laine has openly said that he is aiming for (to become the best player in the world).

Many neutral expert's have been praising Laine enormously and have compared him to some of hockey's all time greats. So they don't put limits to what he can be at his prime. He is really that level of talent that you don't define what he can't be in the future, unless you seriously dislike his playing style or his personality. But the truth is that the estimation of how good a player can become should not be really based on how much you like the player, but on what he achieves in the rink. That you don't put limits to what top prospects can become does not also mean that they will become for sure superstars. Only time will show if it will happen or not.

I am one of those who believes that Laine will become better than Ovechkin. Maybe not as a goal scorer, but at least as a player. But that has to do more with the fact that I see Ovechkin only as a good goalscorer, not as a very good player, especially as a team player. I could probably name at least 100 NHL players that are better players for their teams than Ovechkin. But that's how I see hockey. I put almost no value to regular season points and awards. The only really meaningful games are the playoffs games and top international tournament games. What really matters is that you score and win in those games. If you do, then the personal awards there will mean also really something.

Ovechkin is one of the most overrated players in hockey, and I have never ever understood the strong Ovie love. If the Caps would trade him for a couple of good playoffs players, they could very potentially be almost immediately SC winning team. With Ovechkin, sorry, but no chance.

Oh, and I will in fact turn around something that you said. To me it seems that you and some others here don't see what you really don't want to see...

 

[ijuka]

It actually is pretty strange how Laine's regular season scoring was so weak overall. Most of his goals also seemed to be off good shots. There were few garbage goals or off stupid bounces or rebounds. All of his defenseman-deking rushes also ended up not being a goal.

But because of all the scoring chances, the adjustments aren't even that drastic for a significantly increased production. A bit faster skating(especially acceleration), and better finishes off those rushes, like moving to forehand and a rapid release to top shelf(He got caught by the pads tons of times in prime chances) like that one Aho goal(Which he can do). Stuff like that succeeding at a decent rate might have given him 10-15 more goals throughout the season and they're small adjustments.

Is this too positive a line of thinking to have?

 

[JA]

Want to talk about selfish? How about a young Mats Sundin, who on a 2-on-1 could have given defenceman Curtis Leschyshyn his hat trick goal into an empty net, but instead shot the puck into the net himself.

http://www.hockey-fights.com/forum/showtopic.php?tid/211375/

Another breach of etiquette I saw on an empty net goal occured about 12 years ago. For some reason this has stuck in my mind. The Nords were playing a team (I think the Habs) that had pulled their goalie in the final minute of play. Quebec's Curtis Leschyshyn, a low-scoring defenseman his whole career, had two goals and was on the ice. The Nords got the puck out of their own end, and Leschyshyn was on a two-on-one break with Mats Sundin. Everyone expected Sundin to pass off to his teammate, who would probably never have a chance at a hat-trick again. But Sundin shot at the empty cage and scored, and then he was all smiles. I'll never forget how oblivious Sundin was to his own teammates, all of whom had this "What an *******!" look on their faces as they half-heartedly congratulated him.

Of course, Sundin was young then, and I believe he's a classy player now.

Nordiques join Habs in Adams penthouse: [FINAL Edition]
The Gazette [Montreal, Que] 02 Apr 1993: D7/BREAK.

OTTAWA - Curtis Leschyshyn scored twice as the Quebec Nordiques did the bare minimum for a 4-2 National Hockey League victory over the Ottawa Senators last night.

...

Andrei Kovalenko and Mats Sundin - into an empty net - also scored for the cruising Nordiques, who whipped the Canadiens 6-2 on Wednesday night in Montreal and have won eight of their last 12 games.

Ottawa (9-64-4) tied a club record with its 11th straight defeat, but gave the Nordiques a scare.

"They play a really tight-checking game," said Leschyshyn, who was denied his hat-trick when Sundin failed to pass on the game-ending, empty-net, 2-on-1 break.

...

Close not enough for Bowness; Senators coach can't face media after another frustrating loss: [Final Edition]
Mayoh, Rick. The Ottawa Citizen [Ottawa, Ont] 02 Apr 1993: C1.

...

Defenceman Curtis Leschyshyn with a pair, Andrei Kovalenko and Mats Sundin with an empty-net goal scored for the talent-rich Nordiques.

...

Sundin broke in two-on-one with Leschyshyn to score into an empty net with 17 seconds left.

...

Curtis Leschyshyn averaged three goals per season over a 16-year NHL career. Mats, on the other hand, was trying to pad his career-high goal total in April.

Cherry, Leafs struggle to get over Clark trade: [Final Edition]
Starkman, Randy. The Ottawa Citizen [Ottawa, Ont] 30 June 1994: D3.

...

"You're kidding me, said Cherry. "This isn't April 1. This has got to be April 1. This is a joke. I hope somebody's kidding me that you would trade Clark for Mats Sundin?

Cherry noted that Sundin was chewed out publicly by then Quebec GM/coach Pierre Page when the Nordiques made an early exit from the playoffs two years ago.

"Mats Sundin is the guy that Page was screaming at in the playoffs two years ago for quitting, said Cherry. "Clark is the heart and soul (of the Leafs) and you trade your captain for Mats Sundin. A lot of people in Toronto should be up in arms.

...

Dicky-dicky doesn't do it at all: [Final Edition]
MacGregor, Roy. The Ottawa Citizen [Ottawa, Ont] 31 Mar 1994: D1.

...

Last year's lasting image was of coach Pierre Page, eyes bulging, screaming into the helmet backs of Sundin, Kamensky and the gifted Andrei Kovalenko as all the promise of the season slipped through the Nordiques' hands.

...

Sundin out to prove playoff mettle 'When there's more on line, my game picks up': [Final Edition]
By Damien Cox Toronto Star. Toronto Star [Toronto, Ont] 06 May 1995: B.3.

The memory is two years old now, but it's still one that stands out in Mats Sundin's hockey career.

With the Quebec Nordiques on the verge of capitulating to the Montreal Canadiens in the first round of the Stanley Cup playoffs, Hockey Night In Canada cameras captured Nords head coach Pierre Page screaming into the ear of Sundin, seemingly trying to humiliate the young Swede into giving more of an effort.

That Euro-stars Valeri Kamensky and Andrei Kovalenko were also at the end of Page's vicious tongue-lashing seems to have been forgotten. All that most recall is that Sundin, a 47- goal scorer in his third NHL season, looked like a helpless teenager on the receiving end of a parent's lecture as time wound down that night at the Montreal Forum.

``The funny thing is I really don't remember what it was he was saying to me,'' smiled Sundin yesterday after a Leaf workout. ``I do remember he was about an inch from my ear, yelling.

``I don't think of it as anything personal, and I don't hold anything against him. He wanted to win, and I wanted to win.''

...

Ex-GM says Leaf veterans will help Sundin: [MET Edition]
Mary Ormsby Toronto Star. Toronto Star [Toronto, Ont] 30 June 1994: D5.

...

"Mats will probably breathe a huge sigh of relief to be around the kind of veteran players Toronto has and it will be really good for him," said Page, who was fired by the Nords this past season after a dismal year with the young Quebec club.

"I think he's typical of the young players we put so much pressure on and in Quebec, where the core of players were so young, we'd been talking about adding some veteran leadership for the young guys to learn from."

Sundin, 23, was the first pick over-all by Quebec in the 1989 entry draft.

...

"I can't say enough about Mats Sundin. He's an outstanding hockey player."

However, there was an incident during the playoffs two seasons ago when an irate Page was picked up by cameras screaming wildly at Sundin. Page said the incident "was unfortunate" and not symbolic of his relationship.

...

"When I benched him at times, I'm sure inside it bothered him but he knew why it was done.

...

Nordiques' Nolan eager for ice wars; Returning after 16- month absence: [FINAL Edition]
Ratte, Francois. The Gazette [Montreal, Que] 15 Jan 1995: D.3.

...

Lacroix also made the trade many in Quebec had been screaming for when he sent flashy centre Mats Sundin to Toronto for some leadership in Wendel Clark and some experienced defence in Sylvain Lefebvre.

...

Mats Sundin, not a leader . . . at the age of 23.

 

[93LEAFS]

That's because they haven't played in the same league. WJC and WC is what I've been using is simply because they all have played those leagues at similar ages. The world cup as well as the beginning of next season will tell us a lot more.

I don't think that Laine will ever have as nimble skating as McDavid, McDavid is probably the best overall skater in all of NHL. But I don't think that it's completely impossible he'll eventually become a better or even a comparable player, utilizing his own strengths.

Thing is McDavid was coming off a broken hand at the start of his WJC that year. And look at what he did in his 15 year old season at the U-18's, its absolutely insane. Tournaments are by far the smallest sample size (and its debatable who outplayed who at the WHC). Its much easier to put league performance in context against those who preceded them, for Matthews U-19 year its a bit of a mess because no one comes out of the NLA, but what he did at the USNDP which produces arguably the 2nd most high-end NHL players behind the CHL was historic.

 

[Stephen]

For sure here is exactly hate towards Laine. So what if some of us Finns are excited about Laine and hyping him?

As a Leafs fan, I'm more annoyed with Finnish Fan Boys to be honest, since there's not a whole lot wrong with Laine even if we factor in all the supposed rock star stuff, which doesn't really matter to me. If the Leafs had the second overall pick, I'd be pretty pumped to draft Laine. If the Leafs had the first and second overall picks, I'd be rubbing the Matthews-Laine combo in everyone's face on Hfboards.

Finnish fans want to see Laine drafted first overall. He's probably put together the most impressive draft eligible season ever coming out of Finland. So there's been a lot of hyperbolic talk, a lot of crazy comparisons, and a ton of defensive mother hen garbage surrounding this kid. Well, any other draft, any other pick and we'd be happy to have him, but Toronto Maple Leafs mostly prefer something else.

 

[ijuka]

Thing is McDavid was coming off a broken hand at the start of his WJC that year. And look at what he did in his 15 year old season at the U-18's, its absolutely insane. Tournaments are by far the smallest sample size (and its debatable who outplayed who at the WHC). Its much easier to put league performance in context against those who preceded them, for Matthews U-19 year its a bit of a mess because no one comes out of the NLA, but what he did at the USNDP which produces arguably the 2nd most high-end NHL players behind the CHL was historic.

McDavid certainly was better when he was younger. After all, Laine really broke through this season . However...

Regarding McDavid's u16 season in u18s where he scored 14 points in 7 games, Laine was actually supposed to be with the u18 team when he himself was u16 but that's when he had his knee injury, just before the u18s. He had scored 12+5=17 in 7 games with the u-17 group during that season. It's too bad that he couldn't take part in u-18s, I wonder how he'd have done.

 

[Stephen]

McDavid certainly was better when he was younger. After all, Laine really broke through this season . However...

Regarding McDavid's u16 season in u18s where he scored 14 points in 7 games, Laine was actually supposed to be with the u18 team when he himself was u16 but that's when he had his knee injury, just before the u18s. He had scored 12+5=17 in 7 games with the u-17 group during that season. It's too bad that he couldn't take part in u-18s, I wonder how he'd have done.

Who cares about these little kiddie tournaments?

If all goes well next year, we can compare Laine's rookie season to McDavid's, and Eichel's and Matthews'.

 

[Future]

For sure here is exactly hate towards Laine. So what if some of us Finns are excited about Laine and hyping him? So are you North Americans on your McDavids's and Matthews's. Laine is the best U18 prospect that Finland has ever had and he just had the best season by achievements that ANY U18 player has ever had. When a player has had that kind of a season as an 18 year old, it makes really no sense for some people saying in an angry tone, that no, he definitely will never become as good or better than Ovechkin. This kind of approach tells exactly that these people don't like Laine and they don't want him to become so good as some Laine fans are hoping for and what Laine has openly said that he is aiming for (to become the best player in the world).

Many neutral expert's have been praising Laine enormously and have compared him to some of hockey's all time greats. So they don't put limits to what he can be at his prime. He is really that level of talent that you don't define what he can't be in the future, unless you seriously dislike his playing style or his personality. But the truth is that the estimation of how good a player can become should not be really based on how much you like the player, but on what he achieves in the rink. That you don't put limits to what top prospects can become does not also mean that they will become for sure superstars. Only time will show if it will happen or not.

I am one of those who believes that Laine will become better than Ovechkin. Maybe not as a goal scorer, but at least as a player. But that has to do more with the fact that I see Ovechkin only as a good goalscorer, not as a very good player, especially as a team player. I could probably name at least 100 NHL players that are better players for their teams than Ovechkin. But that's how I see hockey. I put almost no value to regular season points and awards. The only really meaningful games are the playoffs games and top international tournament games. What really matters is that you score and win in those games. If you do, then the personal awards there will mean also really something.

Ovechkin is one of the most overrated players in hockey, and I have never ever understood the strong Ovie love. If the Caps would trade him for a couple of good playoffs players, they could very potentially be almost immediately SC winning team. With Ovechkin, sorry, but no chance.

Oh, and I will in fact turn around something that you said. To me it seems that you and some others here don't see what you really don't want to see...

I don't know what to tell you then if you think Ovechkin is not a very good player. You probably should watch more NHL hockey than FEL. Ovechkin was one of the more dominant players in this years playoffs before his team got eliminated.

 

[kelsier]

Its been my experience that people who are self aware rarely talk about themselves. Also Laine has been the subject of critics for quite some time now, not just the past week. My concerns are not limited to mental and emotional issues, its also the game he plays. You never see that wide turning skating style in the NHL anymore....just doesnt work on the small ice at an NHL pace. You also dont get that space in the high circle where he seems to score from. His game will need to be far quicker before he has an impact in the NHL.

That being said , I think he might still be a good pick at #2 based on his talents, I'm just not going to pick and choose what I observe in a player.

Oh the skating again. He is one off-season behind there and working with one of the best skating coaches in the world. If Barkov can turn one of his weaknesses into strengths, so should Laine. He's already way faster than Barkov when compared to their respective pre-draft years.

We are looking into a type of draft with 1a and 1b in the top two (Laine would go first in most draft years) so "good #2 drafted player" is just a bit of an understatement.

 

[Ippenator]

As a Leafs fan, I'm more annoyed with Finnish Fan Boys to be honest, since there's not a whole lot wrong with Laine even if we factor in all the supposed rock star stuff, which doesn't really matter to me. If the Leafs had the second overall pick, I'd be pretty pumped to draft Laine. If the Leafs had the first and second overall picks, I'd be rubbing the Matthews-Laine combo in everyone's face on Hfboards.

Finnish fans want to see Laine drafted first overall. He's probably put together the most impressive draft eligible season ever coming out of Finland. So there's been a lot of hyperbolic talk, a lot of crazy comparisons, and a ton of defensive mother hen garbage surrounding this kid. Well, any other draft, any other pick and we'd be happy to have him, but Toronto Maple Leafs mostly prefer something else.

I doubt that many Finns really want Laine to be picked first. I at least realized already a long time ago that Winnipeg would by all means be a much better team and city for Laine. The Maple Leafs fans have been showing the similar attitude that I have understood that the Toronto media is having. Pretty hostile and pressuring atmosphere can be created with the attitude that they both have. Not a very good atmosphere for any 18 year old kid to be in, and especially not for a foreign kid who comes from overseas.

And of course the Jets roster is much more steady and promising than the Maple Leafs's. Of course number one pick would be historical for Finnish hockey, but otherwise it doesn't mean much. And definitely for Laine's career it should be better for him to be picked by the Jets.

 

[Stephen]

I doubt that many Finns really want Laine to be picked first. I at least realized already a long time ago that Winnipeg would by all means be a much better team and city for Laine. The Maple Leafs fans have been showing the similar attitude that I have understood that the Toronto media is having. Pretty hostile and pressuring atmosphere can be nuolta with the attitude that they both have. Not a very good atmosphere for any 18 year old kid to be in, and especially not for a foreign kid who comes from overseas.

And of course the Jets roster is much more steady and promising than the Maple Leafs's. Of course number one pick would be historical for Finnish hockey, but otherwise it doesn't mean much. And definitely for Laine's career it should be better for him to be picked by the Jets.

By all means, believe what you want!

It's not like reality has ever had much of an impact on Laine Land before anyway

 

[Plural]

If your only argument is relying on the words of an authority instead of forming your own argument using things you have actually seen happen(Both of my comparisons of Laine's performances in comparison to McDavid's at WCs and WJC-20s are undeniable facts), that's not very convincing. Especially as I said that McDavid is a better player overall at this point in time.

Laine will never be better than McDavid.

You Finnish homers are giving us all a really bad reputation on this board. Finnish hockey "knowledge" by fans has taken a massive hit in the past 6 months.