LW Patrik Laine - Tappara, Liiga (2016, 2nd, WPG) XII

[Purity*]

Ovechkin should not be talked about when compared to Laine. Laine actually play's hockey unlike Ovechkin who is just standing waiting for shots and floating around... Ovechkin is cancer to his team /unit.

LOL now you gotta tear down Ovechkin to pump up Laine?

Ovechkin's 2-way game has improved leaps and bounds under Trotz actually.

 

[psycho_dad*]

Ovechkin has a skating advantage over Laine. In fact, Ovechkin was the best skater in the entire league in his prime(But not better than McDavid, even in his prime). This is a fact. However, what I don't understand is that people ignore the advantages Laine actually has over Ovechkin in his gameplay. While Laine has borrowed some attributes from Ovechkin, he has many other things in his game as well. I have seen people often compare him to Lemieux. Now, it is not a guarantee he will become a better goal-scorer or even a better player than Ovechkin in his prime. But I see Laine having potential for having more dimensions in his game.

I think Laine is already better in most areas, he defends a bit better, he makes better plays and his shot is equal if not better. It's the acceleration, top speed and hitting where Laine loses to Ovy currently. I bet he'll never become as good of a skater as Ovechkin, but he has all the tools to be a better overall hockey player. In a lot of ways he already is.

Some people see Ovy as one of the best players in the world and some of us do not. He is the best goal scorer right now and has been that for ages, but outside of that his game is lacking a lot.

Stylistically I don't see them being a close match at all, Laine reminds me much more of a Lemieux type guy. Of course a bunch of illiterate leafs fans will read that as a "all finnish posters think he is better than Lemieux".

 

[Purity*]

I think Laine is already better in most areas, he defends a bit better, he makes better plays and his shot is equal if not better. It's the acceleration, top speed and hitting where Laine loses to Ovy currently. I bet he'll never become as good of a skater as Ovechkin, but he has all the tools to be a better overall hockey player. In a lot of ways he already is.

Some people see Ovy as one of the best players in the world and some of us do not. He is the best goal scorer right now and has been that for ages, but outside of that his game is lacking a lot.

Stylistically I don't see them being a close match at all, Laine reminds me much more of a Lemieux type guy. Of course a bunch of illiterate leafs fans will read that as a "all finnish posters think he is better than Lemieux".

I'm not gonna quote you on your last sentence but I did just read you saying you think Laine is already better than Ovechkin in a lot of ways.

You can stop there because that's already ridiculous.

 

[psycho_dad*]

I'm not gonna quote you on your last sentence but I did just read you saying you think Laine is already better than Ovechkin in a lot of ways.

You can stop there because that's already ridiculous.

I'm not going to. I have the right to voice my opinion and I have valid reasons to think so.

Both of them just played in the same tournament, and head to head as well. Ovechkin sucked while Laine did not. Ovechkin was (once again) one of the primary reasons Russia did not live up to their potential.

Ovy has advantages over Laine, and Laine has advantages over Ovechkin. If you can't come to terms with those realities then YOU should probably "stop".

We can't compare their NHL production yet because Laine has 0 NHL games. All we can do is look at comparable games. One of them was a big reason they dropped out in semis, one of them was tournament MVP. There's some facts for you.

 

[BB88]

I'm not going to. I have the right to voice my opinion and I have valid reasons to think so.

Both of them just played in the same tournament, and head to head as well. Ovechkin sucked while Laine did not. Ovechkin was (once again) one of the primary reasons Russia did not live up to their potential.

Ovy has advantages over Laine, and Laine has advantages over Ovechkin. If you can't come to terms with those realities then YOU should probably "stop".

We can't compare their NHL production yet because Laine has 0 NHL games. All we can do is look at comparable games. One of them was a big reason they dropped out in semis, one of them was tournament MVP. There's some facts for you.

Without seeing a game from Laine in the NHL we really can't say he's better at some things than Ovy is.

Yes I believe he will have strenghts over Ovy, which I like, team game, playing without the puck and probably will see him put up more assists(not talking about peak) overall but those are still only potentials.

But Ovy is still Ovy and generational scoring winger, something we can only dream of with Laine.

 

[psycho_dad*]

Without seeing a game from Laine in the NHL we really can't say he's better at some things than Ovy is.

Yes I believe he will have strenghts over Ovy, which I like, team game, playing without the puck and probably will see him put up more assists(not talking about peak) overall but those are still only potentials.

But Ovy is still Ovy and generational scoring winger, something we can only dream of with Laine.

Yeah I'm not trying to predict future, I just call it like I see it when it comes to them head to head. At the same age, and today. They are very different players altogether. There is absolutely zero point in arguing what Laine will become, that part is completely unknown. We can only see where he is now, and some parts of his game are better than Ovechkins game. Some are worse.

 

[Captain Timo]

Yeah I'm not trying to predict future, I just call it like I see it when it comes to them head to head. At the same age, and today. They are very different players altogether. There is absolutely zero point in arguing what Laine will become, that part is completely unknown. We can only see where he is now, and some parts of his game are better than Ovechkins game. Most are worse.

Fixed that for you.. Ovi is still one of the best players in the world.

 

[ItchyScratchy77]

I think Laine is already better in most areas, he defends a bit better, he makes better plays and his shot is equal if not better. It's the acceleration, top speed and hitting where Laine loses to Ovy currently. I bet he'll never become as good of a skater as Ovechkin, but he has all the tools to be a better overall hockey player. In a lot of ways he already is.

Some people see Ovy as one of the best players in the world and some of us do not. He is the best goal scorer right now and has been that for ages, but outside of that his game is lacking a lot.

Stylistically I don't see them being a close match at all, Laine reminds me much more of a Lemieux type guy. Of course a bunch of illiterate leafs fans will read that as a "all finnish posters think he is better than Lemieux".

I've made this same comparison on this board in the past. I see a Lemieux style with an Ovi shot.

Can't wait to see this kid play in person. Glad I got the Jays to keep me occupied till hockey season

 

[psycho_dad*]

Fixed that for you.. Ovi is still one of the best players in the world.

Didn't need it fixed, it was fine the way it was.

And yeah, he is somewhere in the top 10-15 of forwards. Some people seem to consider that as a peak that can't be reached, a realist knows that those lists will always keep living and changing, some people will eventually overcome those who are on the list now. Laine could be one of those people, just like Ovechkin was when he started. We just don't know for sure yet. The potential is there and very easy to see.

 

[Captain Timo]

Didn't need it fixed, it was fine the way it was.

And yeah, he is somewhere in the top 10-15 of forwards. Some people seem to consider that as a peak that can't be reached, a realist knows that those lists will always keep living and changing, some people will eventually overcome those who are on the list now. Laine could be one of those people, just like Ovechkin was when he started. We just don't know for sure yet. The potential is there and very easy to see.

It needs fixing if you're suggesting Laine is nearly as good as Ovechkin currently is. Like I said, Ovechkin is better in most areas, Laine might have him in a couple.

 

[Plural]

We will see. The odds are heavily stacked against Laine. (If we are talking about him becoming as good or even better than peak Ovechkin) There will be players who are better than Ovechkin. Is Laine one? Who knows, maybe he is. But the odds for it are slim. In the past 100 years there has been few wingers who are objectively ranked ahead of Ovechkin.

Howe, Hull, Jagr, Lafleur, Richard, Bossy, Cook, Lindsay, Makarov, Ovechkin. That's the kind of players Ovechkin hangs around with in terms of all-time lists. Will Laine some day be in the same discussion? There is a chance. But smart betting man is not going against those odds.

 

[Hagged]

We will see. The odds are heavily stacked against Laine. (If we are talking about him becoming as good or even better than peak Ovechkin) There will be players who are better than Ovechkin. Is Laine one? Who knows, maybe he is. But the odds for it are slim. In the past 100 years there has been few wingers who are objectively ranked ahead of Ovechkin.

Howe, Hull, Jagr, Lafleur, Richard, Bossy, Cook, Lindsay, Makarov, Ovechkin. That's the kind of players Ovechkin hangs around with in terms of all-time lists. Will Laine some day be in the same discussion? There is a chance. But smart betting man is not going against those odds.

It would be nice to just see him topping Selanne and Kurri career wise first. Making the top100 all time list is high expectation enough for me. Topping Ovie is something so rare for a winger, I don't find the discussion on whether Laine will do that even interesting. Let him become a superstar first before declaring him the best goal scorer all time.

 

[Plural]

It would be nice to just see him topping Selanne and Kurri career wise first. Making the top100 all time list is high expectation enough for me. Topping Ovie is something so rare for a winger, I don't find the discussion on whether Laine will do that even interesting. Let him become a superstar first before declaring him the best goal scorer all time.

Yeah, it's just so awesome to have a elite prospect like Laine so the discussion tends to go overboard. Getting to Selanne territory will be a massive achievement and I don't think even that's a reasonable expectation. I just hope he manages to secure a roster spot in his first year. Let's move on from there.

 

[psycho_dad*]

It needs fixing if you're suggesting Laine is nearly as good as Ovechkin currently is. Like I said, Ovechkin is better in most areas, Laine might have him in a couple.

Laine was clearly the better of the two in WHC, but that is a very small sample and a bigger ice surface so you can't draw too much conclusion from that. After about 3 seasons in NHL we can start comparing them in the NHL level. The comparisons I have made here are strictly about comparable national team games, because that's the only option since Laine hasn't played a game in the NHL.

Yes, Laine was far superior in this years WHC going head to head, and Laine was superior in his pre-draft year compared to Ovechkin pre-draft. That's a fact nobody can deny. That fact does not necessarily translate to anything regarding their careers. It's just a good starting point to try and gauge Laine's immense potential. If Ovy looked generational in his pre-draft years, what does that say about the guy who severely beat his pre-draft performance?

 

[Captain Timo]

Laine was clearly the better of the two in WHC, but that is a very small sample and a bigger ice surface so you can't draw too much conclusion from that. After about 3 seasons in NHL we can start comparing them in the NHL level. The comparisons I have made here are strictly about comparable national team games, because that's the only option since Laine hasn't played a game in the NHL.

Yes, Laine was far superior in this years WHC going head to head, and Laine was superior in his pre-draft year compared to Ovechkin pre-draft. That's a fact nobody can deny. That fact does not necessarily translate to anything regarding their careers. It's just a good starting point to try and gauge Laine's immense potential. If Ovy looked generational in his pre-draft years, what does that say about the guy who severely beat his pre-draft performance?

Facts and opinions are two different things, though. A lot of people would disagree.

 

[psycho_dad*]

Facts and opinions are two different things, though. A lot of people would disagree.

Disagree with what?

 

[Captain Timo]

Disagree with what?

That Laine "severely beat" a generational prospects pre-draft performance.

 

[Purity*]

Laine was clearly the better of the two in WHC, but that is a very small sample and a bigger ice surface so you can't draw too much conclusion from that. After about 3 seasons in NHL we can start comparing them in the NHL level. The comparisons I have made here are strictly about comparable national team games, because that's the only option since Laine hasn't played a game in the NHL.

Yes, Laine was far superior in this years WHC going head to head, and Laine was superior in his pre-draft year compared to Ovechkin pre-draft. That's a fact nobody can deny. That fact does not necessarily translate to anything regarding their careers. It's just a good starting point to try and gauge Laine's immense potential. If Ovy looked generational in his pre-draft years, what does that say about the guy who severely beat his pre-draft performance?

How in god's name did he not go #1 overall?

Must be that North America/positional bias.

 

[ijuka]

That Laine "severely beat" a generational prospects pre-draft performance.

Ovechkin while a year older:

u-20s 5+2=7 in 6 gp

WHCs 1+1=2 in 6 gp

The more relevant one would be WHCs where Laine had 700% the goal production of Ovechkin.

If Laine scores more than 1 goal at WCup he outperforms Ovechkin there as well. And Ovechkin was a year older there as well.

How in god's name did he not go #1 overall?

Must be that North America/positional bias.

You nailed it, actually. Don't pretend a #2 overall has never been better than a #1 overall.

 

[Captain Timo]

Ovechkin while a year older:

u-20s 5+2=7 in 6 gp

WHCs 1+1=2 in 6 gp

The more relevant one would be WHCs where Laine had 700% the goal production of Ovechkin.

If Laine scores more than 1 goal at WCup he outperforms Ovechkin there as well. And Ovechkin was a year older there as well.

But an individual could still refute that the situations were different and impossible to measure in an effective manner. Facts are indisputable, so that's obviously not a 'fact' as stated by the other poster.

 

[ijuka]

But an individual could still refute that the situations were different and impossible to measure in an effective manner. Facts are indisputable, so that's obviously not a 'fact' as stated by the other poster.

Yes, if "superior" to you would be measured in a way different from scoring. Scoring goes a long way towards your salary being higher, though, so scoring is a very significant factor. We rarely see players of the same position being as appreciated if one scores 100% more points, for instance. Laine was superior at scoring in comparison to Ovechkin. While being a year younger.


We could also look at this criteria which is arguably more important:

Winning.

Laine got a gold at u-20s and a silver at WHCs.

Ovechkin got a 5th place at WJCs and a 10th place at WHCs.

And Ovechkin, of course, was a season older.

 

[Captain Timo]

Yes, if "superior" to you would be measured in a way different from scoring. Scoring goes a long way towards your salary being higher, though, so scoring is a very significant factor. We rarely see players of the same position being as appreciated if one scores 100% more points, for instance. Laine was superior at scoring in comparison to Ovechkin. While being a year younger.


We could also look at this criteria which is arguably more important:

Winning.

Laine got a gold at u-20s and a silver at WHCs.

Ovechkin got a 5th place at WJCs and a 10th place at WHCs.

And Ovechkin, of course, was a season older.

I was more referring to the level of competition, the way the game was being played, etc. Factors that can't really be measured effectively.

 

[TDK67]

How in god's name did he not go #1 overall?

Must be that North America/positional bias.

Not necessarily...

With Laine >= Ovechkin, then clearly Matthews >= Gretzky so obviously Laine could only go #2 in the draft in that case.

There's plenty of facts and truth to back up Matthews >= Gretzky too. E.g. Matthews put up more points at the WHC than Gretzky did in the Olympics. Matthews had a much higher PPG in the NLA than Gretzky did in his most recent season. And so on. Plenty of data and facts to support Matthews being better.

 

[Plural]

Yes, if "superior" to you would be measured in a way different from scoring. Scoring goes a long way towards your salary being higher, though, so scoring is a very significant factor. We rarely see players of the same position being as appreciated if one scores 100% more points, for instance. Laine was superior at scoring in comparison to Ovechkin. While being a year younger.


We could also look at this criteria which is arguably more important:

Winning.

Laine got a gold at u-20s and a silver at WHCs.

Ovechkin got a 5th place at WJCs and a 10th place at WHCs.

And Ovechkin, of course, was a season older.

Yet, not a lot of people thought that Laine should have gone over Matthews this year. If we would have a survey for professional scouts who evaluated Laine, Matthews and Ovechkin back in the day, I bet my house that the consensus would favor Ovechkin over both.

Results do matter. But for prospects, there is so much to evaluate. I bet that majority of hockey professionals would say that Malkin was better prospect than Laine and there was absolutely no way Malkin was going before Ovechkin.

 

[UsernameWasTaken]

How in god's name did he not go #1 overall?

Must be that North America/positional bias.

From what I've read on HFboards, Auston Matthews is a borderline generational player and, with the exception of McDavid, the best prospect to come along since Crosby so it's hard to imagine how anyone this past draft could be better than that.