LW Arthur Kaliyev (2019, 33rd, LAK)

[Szechwan]

Name these 2 players that had these souting reports

no u

 

[VainGretzky]

no u

Well the 1st player I quoted went on to multiple 100 point seasons couple 50 goal seasons Conn Smythe Hart and Pearson trophy and Stanley Cup
The Second player same scout said would never score 40 in the NHL did it 6 times with 2 50 goal campaigns and over 650 for his career

This happens so many times in draft history where players that get the job done in junior are picked apart because they don't hustle every shift , and their underlying production is ignored , at the Same times scouts have orgasims over player like Bennett because of his tenacity and effort .

 

[93LEAFS]

Well the 1st player I quoted went on to multiple 100 point seasons couple 50 goal seasons Conn Smythe Hart and Pearson trophy and Stanley Cup
The Second player same scout said would never score 40 in the NHL did it 6 times with 2 50 goal campaigns and over 650 for his career

This happens so many times in draft history where players that get the job done in junior are picked apart because they don't hustle every shift , and their underlying production is ignored , at the Same times scouts have orgasims over player like Bennett because of his tenacity and effort .

You do know you can find similar quotes in reverse right? Guess who this is.

"_____ relies on his hockey IQ and smart positioning, but we feel that he needs to improve his work ethic in order to be an elite player. He showed the desire to get better and it showed in his defensive game later in the season. We would also like to see him get more involved physically, especially along the boards. He improved modestly in this area, but he needs to get into more battles for the puck and use his big body to win them. Once ______ gets the puck on his stick, you can clearly see something special happens, but it would be nice to see him generate more of those opportunities by way of his own hard work. This became more apparent in the 2nd half of the season and in the playoffs where the coverage on him was more intense. He struggled to be a factor in a lot of games and he completely disappeared in the playoffs. He could not generate anything on the rush and had a good share of turnovers. ______ doesn’t seem to be willing to go out of his comfort zone to raise his game and it’s a big concern. The work ethic issues and the fact that we never saw him raise his game when he needed to, are the main reasons why we dropped him in our rankings."

 

[VainGretzky]

You do know you can find similar quotes in reverse right? Guess who this is.

Yea so my whole point is Scouts get it wrong all the time and they will with Kaliyev as well 17 year old who outscored his next teammate by 23 points who is a signed NHL prospect is considered lazy lol , he also at 17 is up there with the best 19-20 yearold scorers in the OHL but has all these supposed red flags , sounds more like to me scouts caught him on bad nights , he sure showed up in the prospect game , I find it amusing how no matter what you post in here whether it's legit or not you get someone trying to prove you wrong lol look at his age compared to others if he dogs it all the time the kid skill level is off the charts for this kind of production at this age

 

[93LEAFS]

Yea so my whole point is Scouts get it wrong all the time and they will with Kaliyev as well 17 year old who outscored his next teammate by 23 points who is a signed NHL prospect is considered lazy lol , he also at 17 is up there with the best 19-20 yearold scorers in the OHL but has all these supposed red flags , sounds more like to me scouts caught him on bad nights , he sure showed up in the prospect game , I find it amusing how no matter what you post in here whether it's legit or not you get someone trying to prove you wrong lol look at his age compared to others if he dogs it all the time the kid skill level is off the charts for this kind of production at this age

So wait, because a player is successful at a young age, it doesn't mean they can't have significant red-flags.

Your form of argument was literally scouts have been wrong, look at the scouting reports of previous guys who are successes. Guess what, the reverse is also true, shown by Grigorenko's scouting report which I posted. You also chose an interesting example in Bennett, who also had elite OHL production for his age, and there is also players like Dal Colle.

 

[VainGretzky]

So wait, because a player is successful at a young age, it doesn't mean they can't have significant red-flags.

Your form of argument was literally scouts have been wrong, look at the scouting reports of previous guys who are successes. Guess what, the reverse is also true, shown by Grigorenko's scouting report which I posted. You also chose an interesting example in Bennett, who also had elite OHL production for his age, and there is also players like Dal Colle.

Well maybe show me your reports on players before they were drafted , because I will happily show you my thoughts , and how they're doing now

 

[93LEAFS]

Well maybe show me your reports on players before they were drafted , because I will happily show you my thoughts , and how they're doing now

You originally showed old reports from other scouts, then attributed that because these previous errors were made, they were wrong against Kaliyev. Yet, when I show you a similar report (by a source that is also down on Kaliyev, that was HP's write up on Grigorenko) about Grigorenko for similar reasons, your argument is now to shoe our previous scouting reports?

My point was, just because scouts have been wrong before, doesn't automatically make them right or wrong before. And, since scouting sources don't think completely hive-minded, it would be important to know, which scouts had that opinion, and what their opinion on Kaliyev is today.

 

[VainGretzky]

You originally showed old reports from other scouts, then attributed that because these previous errors were made, they were wrong against Kaliyev. Yet, when I show you a similar report (by a source that is also down on Kaliyev, that was HP's write up on Grigorenko) about Grigorenko for similar reasons, your argument is now to shoe our previous scouting reports?
My point was, just because scouts have been wrong before, doesn't automatically make them right or wrong before. And, since scouting sources don't think completely hive-minded, it would be important to know, which scouts had that opinion, and what their opinion on Kaliyev is today.

Any player there are risks no one is perfect at evaulating , but I have watched this game from Orr to McDavid , and one thing I have learned is elite skills cannot be taught , like shooting passing and hockey sense , defence and drive can every scout had Strome over Marner I was very vocal after viewing Strome and Marner many times , that Marner was far superior in skill and would be elite if not franchise player , just imo sometimes scouts are so biased they tell you not to believe your lying eyes . Look at the arguments I had before Marner was drafted starting on page 20 it went for a while Marner vs Strome I had many comments on Marner before he played his 1st NHL game Search Results for Query: Marner | HFBoards - NHL Message Board and Forum for National Hockey League I also had alot to say about Tkachuk and Petterson before they ever played as well , I think People should just trust their eyes more and drown out the hype noise when it comes to prospects

 

[93LEAFS]

Any player there are risks no one is perfect at evaulating , but I have watched this game from Orr to McDavid , and one thing I have learned is elite skills cannot be taught , like shooting passing and hockey sense , defence and drive can every scout had Strome over Marner I was very vocal after viewing Strome and Marner many times , that Marner was far superior in skill and would be elite if not franchise player , just imo sometimes scouts are so biased they tell you not to believe your lying eyes . Look at the arguments I had before Marner was drafted starting on page 20 it went for a while Marner vs Strome I had many comments on Marner before he played his 1st NHL game Search Results for Query: Marner | HFBoards - NHL Message Board and Forum for National Hockey League I also had alot to say about Tkachuk and Petterson before they ever played as well , I think People should just trust their eyes more and drown out the hype noise when it comes to prospects

Except, the scouts referenced in the Marner/Strome case who are down on Kaliyev, had Marner at 3 and Strome at 6 at the draft. I don't know how you could watch Marner and say he lacked drive. The guy competed damn hard. I mean, here's a quote from the NHL black book from an NHL scout, and what they said.

His vision and intelligence with the puck is among the very best in the draft. Along with the high-end offensive ability, Mitch is very defensively responsible and uses his speed to apply back-pressure on the puck carrier. His improved defensive play saw him receive a regular shift on the penalty kill this season.

Another one from an NHL scout.

Quotable: “You don’t see a player with his talent backcheck like that everyday.” NHL Scout

So, I don't see how the Marner comparable even applies in this case. If anything, Strome was the more lackadaisical player who didn't play at pace.

 

[VainGretzky]

Except, the scouts referenced in the Marner/Strome case who are down on Kaliyev, had Marner at 3 and Strome at 6 at the draft. I don't know how you could watch Marner and say he lacked drive. The guy competed damn hard. I mean, here's a quote from the NHL black book from an NHL scout, and what they said.



Another one from an NHL scout.



So, I don't see how the Marner comparable even applies in this case. If anything, Strome was the more lackadaisical player who didn't play at pace.

Than simple question why was Strome ranked higher every where lol here was director of scoutin Marr take on Strome you know the Scouts commander

Anyways I base my rankings on eye tests not what scouts say I believe my lying eyes

 

[93LEAFS]

Than simple question why was Strome ranked higher every where lol here was director of scoutin Marr take on Strome you know the Scouts commander

Anyways I base my rankings on eye tests not what scouts say I believe my lying eyes

Strome wasn't ranked higher everywhere. HockeyProspect.com and Bob McKenzie had him higher.

Dan Marr is the Director of Central Scouting. That's one resource. Bob McKenzie, who gets NHL teams lists and puts them into a ranking had Marner at 4 and Strome at 5. So, "lol" why was Strome higher everywhere is just an inaccurate statement. It was generally viewed there was a tier of 3 after Eichel of Hanifin/Marner/Strome, in varying orders.

 

[VainGretzky]

Strome wasn't ranked higher everywhere. HockeyProspect.com and Bob McKenzie had him higher.

Dan Marr is the Director of Central Scouting. That's one resource. Bob McKenzie, who gets NHL teams lists and puts them into a ranking had Marner at 4 and Strome at 5. So, "lol" why was Strome higher everywhere is just an inaccurate statement. It was generally viewed there was a tier of 3 after Eichel of Hanifin/Marner/Strome, in varying orders.

Anyways I am moving on ISS and Central the 2 main ones had Stome 3 Marner 6 but overlook the entire point that I have been dead right about Marner vs Strome so far in their careers and this was all based on my viewings of both players many times but you keep arguing semantics , I like Kaliyev and who ever drafts him is getting a 40 goal scorer down the road while team fans will wonder why they passed up on him over what might be instead if what is .

 

[93LEAFS]

Anyways I am moving on ISS and Central the 2 main ones had Stome 3 Marner 6 but overlook the entire point that I have been dead right about Marner vs Strome so far in their careers and this was all based on my viewings of both players many times but you keep arguing semantics , I like Kaliyev and who ever drafts him is getting a 40 goal scorer down the road while team fans will wonder why they passed up on him over what might be instead if what is .

And, I'm sure I can find players you liked who ended up pretty bad? Where'd you stand on Puljujarvi? I think I've seen you have Laine over Matthews........ Pretty selective memory.

ISS isn't the main one.

You could be right about Kaliyev, but I don't think you will be.

 

[VainGretzky]

And, I'm sure I can find players you liked who ended up pretty bad? Where'd you stand on Puljujarvi?

ISS isn't the main one.

You could be right about Kaliyev, but I don't think you will be.

I knew very little about Puljujarvi and wanted Tkachuk badly , and this was based on many viewings as well . He had out preformed in his rookie season better than Hall did in all his OHL seasons including playoffs , alot were crediting Marner for his production and yes it had some to do with it but I liked him better than Dvorak. Tkachuk was my choice . I was ok at time when they took Puljujarvi but once again I bought into the noise hype withoiut seeing the player play. Just like you see hive mind on HF trust me it happens far to often in scouting world as well , and a lot has to do with some scouts not being vocal enough with their belief in the fear they are wrong , so they take the safe route with the status quo

 

[93LEAFS]

I knew very little about Puljujarvi and wanted Tkachuk badly , and this was based on many viewings as well . He had out preformed in his rookie season better than Hall did in all his OHL seasons including playoffs , alot were crediting Marner for his production and yes it had some to do with it but I liked him better than Dvorak. Tkachuk was my choice . I was ok at time when they took Puljujarvi but once again I bought into the noise hype withoiut seeing the player play.

I've also seen you say Laine over Matthews.

2016 NHL Entry Draft (Part IV)

Laine > Matthews and I will be proven right younger one of the best shots ever for 17 year old . Just pray Leafs don't pick him.

3 years later that doesn't seem to be tracking particularly well. Look, I'm not trying to dig up all your wrong takes. But, when you make your evaluation skills vs public scouting resources as the crux of your argument, then bring up only your hits, it is pretty misleading. Look, you could be right about Kaliyev. I don't think you will be, because you were right about Marner or Strome really has much barring. A bunch of people had Marner over Strome. The other argument you started with was scouts said this about players and were wrong. Well, yeah, that happens, but are they wrong more often then not when they question a high-scoring kids compete, it is hard to know one way or the other. I do remember kids like Grigorenko and Dal Colle both being challenged on it. Both are looking like bad picks today. I've also seen people question Nylander on it, who, while a success can have issues with effort from time to time.

 

[VainGretzky]

I've also seen you say Laine over Matthews.

2016 NHL Entry Draft (Part IV)



3 years later that doesn't seem to be tracking particularly well. Look, I'm not trying to dig up all your wrong takes. But, when you make your evaluation skills vs public scouting resources as the crux of your argument, then bring up only your hits, it is pretty misleading. Look, you could be right about Kaliyev. I don't think you will be, because you were right about Marner or Strome really has much barring. A bunch of people had Marner over Strome. The other argument you started with was scouts said this about players and were wrong. Well, yeah, that happens, but are they wrong more often then not when they question a high-scoring kids compete, it is hard to know one way or the other. I do remember kids like Grigorenko and Dal Colle both being challenged on it. Both are looking like bad picks today. I've also seen people question Nylander on it, who, while a success can have issues with effort from time to time.

So far I have been wrong with Laine and Matthews comparrison but the gap only grew this season their 1st 2 were pretty close , Laine for some reason took a big step back but like MacKinnon did as well with his skill set I see him bouncing back and pretty dominant in his 5to 10 seasons But yes so far advantage Matthews , but I also was the only one that said Marner would be a better producer than Eichel so far right on that one as well.

 

[UNITEDSTATESOFHOCKEY]

any player at any draft pick# can bust. i think edm rushed him and shattered his confidence but that's just my msg board poster opinion.

I'd agree with his development path was very flawed. just goes to show how people that are held in high regard in the hockey circles can derail a career if they are not careful.

 

[UNITEDSTATESOFHOCKEY]

You appeared to be using these errors to discredit there analysis of Kaliyev. Spelling errors or font errors aren't really important for that. If they made factual errors about where guys played and such, it may have barring on that stuff. Kaliyev plays slow as hell in the OHL, whether he tests well or not and lacks compete. Traits we've seen with other high-profile junior busts.

point taken, forgot he was a late DOB

 

[57special]

so he plays slow as hell, lacks compete, and scores 51 g , 51 a.

Bigger guys at a young age often move slowly because they haven't finished growing into their body, but I agree it's near impossible to determine who is going to overcome that. I guess any knowledge of a kids character would be useful.

 

[AZviaNJ]

so he plays slow as hell, lacks compete, and scores 51 g , 51 a.

Bigger guys at a young age often move slowly because they haven't finished growing into their body, but I agree it's near impossible to determine who is going to overcome that. I guess any knowledge of a kids character would be useful.

...and are there character issues? Or are there perceived character issues due to perceived lethargic play? Hate to see 17-18 year old kids "branded".

 

[boredmale]

As an islanders fan while I don't want to draft another LW, if this guy falls to 23 I would make an exception for Kaliyev

 

[Sticks and Pucks]

Well the 1st player I quoted went on to multiple 100 point seasons couple 50 goal seasons Conn Smythe Hart and Pearson trophy and Stanley Cup
The Second player same scout said would never score 40 in the NHL did it 6 times with 2 50 goal campaigns and over 650 for his career

This happens so many times in draft history where players that get the job done in junior are picked apart because they don't hustle every shift , and their underlying production is ignored , at the Same times scouts have orgasims over player like Bennett because of his tenacity and effort .

Joe Sakic and Brendan Shanahan?

 

[boredmale]

Joe Sakic and Brendan Shanahan?

First one sounds like Brett Hull

 

[McDNicks17]

...and are there character issues? Or are there perceived character issues due to perceived lethargic play? Hate to see 17-18 year old kids "branded".

I would say it's the latter.

Kaliyev's different than some past polarizing NHL draft prospects, such as Ryan Merkley last year, in that nobody is questioning his character. He's coachable and well-liked by teammates. Pat Peake, Kaliyev's minor hockey coach for three years in Michigan, adds that his pupil's work ethic is undeniable. Kaliyev's a rink rat who, in his free time, shoots literally hundreds of pucks nearly every day.

"If it was his way," Peake said, "he'd be at the rink 24 hours a day. His mindset is, 'I need to be a good NHLer, or I've failed.'"

From: Boom, bust, or Vanek: Why Arthur Kaliyev's a wild-card prospect

 

[57special]

...and are there character issues? Or are there perceived character issues due to perceived lethargic play? Hate to see 17-18 year old kids "branded".

I never said anything about Kailyev's character specifically. I don't know Kaliyev.

I have only known one or two players ever in all my years on this board where I actually knew something negative about a prospect(one of them was a real jerk), and even then I was extremely circumspect in mentioning it.