Post-Game Talk: Lou unable to beat a team lead by Joe Woll. Leafs win 3-0.

[HoweHullOrr]

Tough look. 40 shots against this staunchy defensive juggernaut?

I think the Isles fans booed their own team more than they booed Tavares. Poverty franchise.

Weren't 6 of their regular roster players out including Brock Nelson, Josh Bailey, Anders Lee, Pelech & Puloch. They were mentioning on the Islanders broadcast that they might have to shut the team down like the Senators did. They haven't had a good season thus far for sure though.

 

[keonsbitterness]

Listening to the fan 590 this morning. JD brought up that high danger scoring chances were 16-15 in favor of the Leafs last night. Blake explained why they were so close.

To me it brings into question some of the advanced stats that are getting posted on here.

Stats compiled by random sites are 100% accurate 110% of the time.

 

[Auston Marlander]

Normally i don’t say this, but this is a stupid post. You and I both know that isn’t true. Even the best coaches lose the room. It’s why most coaches get fired. Coaching never has been that black or white.

you can just accept that you were wrong. Even Morgan Rielly post game comments support what I’ve been saying. It’s okay to be critical of players sometimes.

That's not what Rielly said. What he did say is they didn't discuss defensive responsibility in the past. And who was the coach in the past? He explicotly said they are talking about it now... I wonder why that is. Somehow you are attributing their current success to a coach that is no longer with the team and hasn't been here for a few years.

If a coach cannot get their team to follow their ideas they are no longer a good coach for that team. Babcock's message was no different than any other coach, i.e. Keefe. To give Babcock any sort of credit for Keefes success is to downplay how good Keefe has been.

Beyond that there are only 8 players still here from Babcock's last season. It's ridiculous to give him any credit for this team.

 

[Racer88]

Weren't 6 of their regular roster players out including Brock Nelson, Josh Bailey, Anders Lee, Pelech & Puloch. They were mentioning on the Islanders broadcast that they might have to shut the team down like the Senators did. They haven't had a good season thus far for sure though.

6 of their top players were out last night. It would be interesting to see how the leafs did with their top 6 missing

 

[francis246]

That's not what Rielly said. What he did say is they didn't discuss defensive responsibility in the past. And who was the coach in the past? He explicotly said they are talking about it now... I wonder why that is. Somehow you are attributing their current success to a coach that is no longer with the team and hasn't been here for a few years.

If a coach cannot get their team to follow their ideas they are no longer a good coach for that team. Babcock's message was no different than any other coach, i.e. Keefe. To give Babcock any sort of credit for Keefes success is to downplay how good Keefe has been.

Beyond that there are only 8 players still here from Babcock's last season. It's ridiculous to give him any credit for this team.

no one is giving babcock credit. no where did I give babcock credit. I have and only have mentioned about a shift in mindset. from the get go. I said, the players for whatever reason shifted their mindset when Keefe took over, they flat out refused to have that mindset when babcock was the coach. He tried to get them to shift it (albeit by bad methods) and ultimately they tuned him out and he got fired (this is fact and has been reported on, not to mention babcock's daily press conferences about that very topic). Then I said about a thousand times in this thread, I don't care what ultimately got them to change their mindset, I'm happy they have finally done it. If you're going to reply, at least read what I've posted and stay on topic.

 

[Auston Marlander]

no one is giving babcock credit. no where did I give babcock credit. I have and only have mentioned about a shift in mindset. from the get go. I said, the players for whatever reason shifted their mindset when Keefe took over, they flat out refused to have that mindset when babcock was the coach. He tried to get them to shift it (albeit by bad methods) and ultimately they tuned him out and he got fired. Then I said about a thousand times in this thread, I don't care what ultimately got them to change their mindset, I'm happy they have finally done it. If you're going to reply, at least read what I've posted and stay on topic.

It's extremely convenient that the players mindset changed when the coach changed. One might believe that the new coach is the reason they changed their mindset.

I agree in the end it doesn't matter why, but before you first quoted me the discussion was around Babcock.

 

[Gallagbi]

no one is giving babcock credit. no where did I give babcock credit. I have and only have mentioned about a shift in mindset. from the get go. I said, the players for whatever reason shifted their mindset when Keefe took over, they flat out refused to have that mindset when babcock was the coach. He tried to get them to shift it (albeit by bad methods) and ultimately they tuned him out and he got fired (this is fact and has been reported on, not to mention babcock's daily press conferences about that very topic). Then I said about a thousand times in this thread, I don't care what ultimately got them to change their mindset, I'm happy they have finally done it. If you're going to reply, at least read what I've posted and stay on topic.

The way our stars are competing and defending isn't the way Babs was encouraging either though. Babs was much more of a grind it out, get in the lanes mindset whereas Keefe is more possession focused.

I agree that Babs didn't just forget how to coach, but it certainly felt like he fell in love with an approach (and arguably himself) to the point where his message wasn't appropriate for the team or situation.

 

[Trapper]

6 of their top players were out last night. It would be interesting to see how the leafs did with their top 6 missing

The Leafs won so you can feel good but I’d reign in the title of this thread until we at least match where the Islanders got playoff wise last year.
Some teams are also average regular season teams but really good playoff teams. We are trying to establish both but haven’t yet.

 

[Leaf Fans]

I don't care about the title. Most Leaf fans are happy with win, but everyone knows it is only banking two points in November.

 

[Aus34Matt]

I just don't see how Babcock can get any credit. He may have had the same idea, but couldn't implement it...he couldn't do his job. He also didn't have the same team, there has been a fair amount of change over.

This current team is a result of the GM bringing in new players, the coach getting theost out of his players, and the players buying into the coach. This isn't the house that Babcock built, it's the house that Keefe built.

Not buying any of this BS untl they actually make it past the 1st round lol

In the meantime go watch replays of of their Amazon series all for nothing in regular season, featuring wonder boy and his sidekick coach f-bomb.

 

[ChurchOfMatthews]

Nylander played a little scared last night, thought he was past that but it was apparent last night.
Seems to be something we just need to get use to at this point.

My wife even commented "how embarrassing" when he chose to choke the puck up rather than take a hit on that one play. He's usually a little more subtle about it but not last night. I find Euro's take a little more time to mature with the physicality of the NHL so hopefully Willy is just a late bloomer in that category.

 

[James Blackley]

The way our stars are competing and defending isn't the way Babs was encouraging either though. Babs was much more of a grind it out, get in the lanes mindset whereas Keefe is more possession focused.

I agree that Babs didn't just forget how to coach, but it certainly felt like he fell in love with an approach (and arguably himself) to the point where his message wasn't appropriate for the team or situation.

I actually think both Babcock and Keefe both value puck possession, they just have two very different approaches to accomplishing that goal IMO! Babcock was all about "dump and chase" and using the body to cycle down low to possess the puck, the big issue was he didn't have the horses needed to play that style. Keefe OTOH is all about players having the puck on their stick and using their speed to both generate and maintain puck possession, I find his system works because he has the horses to play that style.

 

[James Blackley]

I actually think both Babcock and Keefe both value puck possession, they just have two very different approaches to accomplishing that goal IMO! Babcock was all about "dump and chase" and using the body to cycle down low to possess the puck, the big issue was he didn't have the horses needed to play that style. Keefe OTOH is all about players having the puck on their stick and using their speed to both generate and maintain puck possession, I find his system works because he has the horses to play that style.

I just want to add one more thing Babcocks defensive system was a nightmare lol!

 

[Jojalu]

I've been seeing it since he's been a Marlie/Leaf, peeps here just called me a hater



I'm kind of puzzled who said anything about being offended?



You didn't watch the Amazon thing? You think Keefe doesn't peel paint off the walls occasionally?

Bert Templeton was one of the best coaches ever in CJH, 2nd man to 800 wins Brian Kilrea was first, Templeton was twice OHL's Coach of the Year, he won an OHL title he won a Silver with a club team in the World Jr's, the days before Canada sent an All star team, he was also accused of physical abuse by former NHLer Dennis Wideman the same poor sport who ran a linesman from behind then whined that the NHL was being unfair in suspending him, those accusations went nowhere.

I was lucky enough to play under him one year, the absolutely best coach I ever had, but if you missed an assignment or was out of position, or didn't hustle the guy could reduce you to tears. What I'll also tell you is that there wasn't one guy in the dressing room and we had two 20 year olds, I was youngest at 15, that wouldn't have gone through a wall for Coach Templeton he became a second father to every man in that dressing room. I can't tell you how many former players attended a memorial for him.



pretty much spot on

There is a difference betwden an asshole coach who really has the playera beat interests and would run through walls for them, and an asshole who is an egotistical stubborn jerk.

Ripping someone apart in context of a certain play is different than degrading someone or attacking their character.

Babcock made everything about him. Right or wrong, no-one wanted to play for him. That is an issue. Sutter is an ass but has Calgary buying in because he has adapted enough to still be a hardass while knowing how to be one

 

[Holls Blackmail]

6 of their top players were out last night. It would be interesting to see how the leafs did with their top 6 missing

Against an ECHL goalie - agreed.

 

[Zybalto]

6 of their top players were out last night. It would be interesting to see how the leafs did with their top 6 missing

Even when they were in they were having a rough year this year.

Ryan Puloch: 2 points in 12 games this year
Adam Pelech: 2 points in 13 games this year
Anders Lee: 4 points in 12 games this year
Josh Bailey: 5 points in 12 games this year
Kiefer Bellows: 1 point in 5 games this year
Andy Greene: 1 point in 13 games this year
Ross Johnston: 0 points in 1 game this year

Total: 15 points in 68 games this year and some pretty bad underlying numbers as well.

I chalked a lot of that up to being a poor road team (which they are) but its worse than it should be.

I mean, just Marner alone has 17 points in 20 games and many people are "disappointed" in him this year.

 

[James Blackley]

There is a difference betwden an asshole coach who really has the playera beat interests and would run through walls for them, and an asshole who is an egotistical stubborn jerk.

Ripping someone apart in context of a certain play is different than degrading someone or attacking their character.

Babcock made everything about him. Right or wrong, no-one wanted to play for him. That is an issue. Sutter is an ass but has Calgary buying in because he has adapted enough to still be a hardass while knowing how to be one

This is very true! My cousin is good buddies with Brendan Smith, and he told me that Babcock was HATED (I can't emphasis this enough) by many of the players on the team in 2015! Datsyuk was going to leave a year early if Babcock came back, Zetterbug was going to request a trade, as was Smith as well. My cousin was telling me that many of the players felt Babs was incredibly egotistical and ran things like a drill sargeant.

 

[Gallagbi]

I actually think both Babcock and Keefe both value puck possession, they just have two very different approaches to accomplishing that goal IMO! Babcock was all about "dump and chase" and using the body to cycle down low to possess the puck, the big issue was he didn't have the horses needed to play that style. Keefe OTOH is all about players having the puck on their stick and using their speed to both generate and maintain puck possession, I find his system works because he has the horses to play that style.

Yeah, I get where you're going with the thought. Both wanted the puck, but Babs focus is on retrieval and creating battles.

It's odd though, because it's not like that was always a Babcock philosophy, it's like he got caught up in trying to force that to work here instead of adapting to the personnel like you said.

 

[TGB]

Listening to the fan 590 this morning. JD brought up that high danger scoring chances were 16-15 in favor of the Leafs last night. Blake explained why they were so close.

To me it brings into question some of the advanced stats that are getting posted on here.

Most advanced stats lack any real veracity. For example, that High Danger chances stats is subjective and therefore of no real mathematical value. It's no wonder many people who argue for them don't actually know how to apply them.

 

[Stephen]

Yeah, I get where you're going with the thought. Both wanted the puck, but Babs focus is on retrieval and creating battles.

It's odd though, because it's not like that was always a Babcock philosophy, it's like he got caught up in trying to force that to work here instead of adapting to the personnel like you said.

Actually, what's kind of ironic about the evolution of the Leafs under Keefe is they seem to be trending towards being a bit more like the late 2000s Red Wings stylistically. That is a team that kind of holds the puck like a soccer team and will pitch back and regroup, regroup instead of pushing it forward (just flash back to the Lidstrom Rafalski game of catch). The downward production trend of the Big 4 is also something interesting to track. Is this dip a temporary blip or are are we seeing the early returns on a group that is now buying into a two way mindset and will start sacrificing those numbers a la Datsyuk and Zetterberg?

 

[therealkoho]

There is a difference betwden an asshole coach who really has the playera beat interests and would run through walls for them, and an asshole who is an egotistical stubborn jerk.

Ripping someone apart in context of a certain play is different than degrading someone or attacking their character.

Babcock made everything about him. Right or wrong, no-one wanted to play for him. That is an issue. Sutter is an ass but has Calgary buying in because he has adapted enough to still be a hardass while knowing how to be one

Wow so very cleverly couched, I'm impressed cheerio mate

 

[TheGreatOne11]

Stats compiled by random sites are 100% accurate 110% of the time.

 

[Ciao]

I don't know why the thread title after a Leafs' win should be about Lou.

Lou is completely irrelevant to the current Leafs. There's no need for that kind of barb.

 

[therealkoho]

Stats compiled by random sites are 100% accurate 110% of the time.

MIT did a 7 year study and found that predictive stats are 72% mostly accurate

 

[AvroArrow]

I don't care about the title. Most Leaf fans are happy with win, but everyone knows it is only banking two points in November.

2 points are 2 points. Teams are dying for even a single point when it comes down to the end of the season. Also it's a bit more than 2 points, it's the attention to detail and the complete effort from the entire group. To get a kid in his 2nd ever NHL game a shutout and to do it in dominating fashion means something. The group is committed to playing a clean and structured team game.