Lost human cilvilizations?

[Stylizer1]

Imagine how much we're missing.

Great find.

 

[Stylizer1]

1849

 

[Stylizer1]

Over the last 17 thousand years the climate has went through many changes. Throughout it humans survived.

 

[tarheelhockey]

View attachment 567769

Over the last 17 thousand years the climate has went through many changes. Throughout it humans survived.

That's kind of like saying "over the last 100 years the Middle East went through many changes. Throughout it humans survived."

Technically it's not a false statement, but kind of misses the point.

 

[Stylizer1]

That's kind of like saying "over the last 100 years the Middle East went through many changes. Throughout it humans survived."

Technically it's not a false statement, but kind of misses the point.

Over the last 100 years the climate(weather) hasn't really changed in the Middle East. Over the last 17000 years there were definitely climatic changes that may have effected humans on a large scale. Today we are worried about climate change. It's barely a blip on the radar in the bigger scheme of things.

 

[JMCx4]

Over the last 100 years the climate(weather) hasn't really changed in the Middle East. Over the last 17000 years there were definitely climatic changes that may have effected humans on a large scale. Today we are worried about climate change. It's barely a blip on the radar in the bigger scheme of things.

Except that it effects a LOT more humans in very large societies. Thus the worry is more personal.

 

[Stylizer1]

Except that it effects a LOT more humans in very large societies. Thus the worry is more personal.

And as shown by the chart we adapt, push forward, and make millions from pet rocks.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Over the last 100 years the climate(weather) hasn't really changed in the Middle East. Over the last 17000 years there were definitely climatic changes that may have effected humans on a large scale. Today we are worried about climate change. It's barely a blip on the radar in the bigger scheme of things.

I expressed it poorly, but was drawing a comparison to saying that Middle Eastern nations have “gone through some changes” politically and socially over the past century, but that’s fine because people are still there. I mean… yes technically cities like Jerusalem and Baghdad and Tehran are still there, still populated. But saying they’ve “survived” is kind of brushing off massive amounts of chaos and death.

The point of the ham-handed analogy being, this thread gets into the fact that entire cities, perhaps entire civilizations are now part of the ocean floor due to climate change. That didn’t happen without upheaval, starvation, war. The people who have survived to present are, by definition, the ones who didn’t die off when their homeland flooded.

I think everyone understands that climate change is part of the fabric of the earth and will always be taking place at some level. But to the extent that we contribute to it, we are contributing to drought and famine over here, flood and devastation over there. It’s a huge deal, and the people who stand to lost their livelihoods (or lives) don’t get much solace from knowing that some people will still be alive somewhere in the future.

 

[JMCx4]

And as shown by the chart we adapt, push forward, and make millions from pet rocks.

I must be missing the Pet Rock axis on my copy.

 

[Stylizer1]

I must be missing the Pet Rock axis on my copy.

it was a joke about how far we've come

 

[lomiller1]

This guy in the video is very annoying but the info is what is important.

The problem is that the information in the video is also very very wrong. While the impact creator is real it's been dated to 58 million years ago note 12K years ago.

Giant impact crater in Greenland occurred a few million years after dinosaurs went extinct

Researchers have dated the enormous Hiawatha impact crater, a 31-kilometer-wide meteorite crater buried under a kilometer of Greenlandic ice. The dating ends speculation that the meteorite impacted after the appearance of humans and opens up a new understanding of Earth's evolution in the...

www.sciencedaily.com

It's questionable whether there was any impact 12 KYA, the evidence for one keeps being debunked as rapidly as it it brought forward. One thing that is certain is that even if there was an asteroid impact it was to small to cause any type of global disruption, A large impact would have cooled both hemispheres but only the Northern Hemisphere cooled 12KYA, the Southern Hemisphere continued to warm. This cooling in the NH and warming in the SH is characteristic of a meltwater pulse draining into the Artic not an asteroid impact.

 

[lomiller1]

View attachment 567769

Over the last 17 thousand years the climate has went through many changes. Throughout it humans survived.

The issue is the speed of change. Coming out of the last ice age it took 5 000 years for the Earth to warm 3 deg and that was enough to melt mile thick ice sheet that had been covering Chicago. We are on pace to have just as much warming over only 200 years. There is a good XKCD for this

Earth Temperature Timeline

xkcd.com

 

[Stylizer1]

The problem is that the information in the video is also very very wrong. While the impact creator is real it's been dated to 58 million years ago note 12K years ago.

Giant impact crater in Greenland occurred a few million years after dinosaurs went extinct

Researchers have dated the enormous Hiawatha impact crater, a 31-kilometer-wide meteorite crater buried under a kilometer of Greenlandic ice. The dating ends speculation that the meteorite impacted after the appearance of humans and opens up a new understanding of Earth's evolution in the...

www.sciencedaily.com

It's questionable whether there was any impact 12 KYA, the evidence for one keeps being debunked as rapidly as it it brought forward. One thing that is certain is that even if there was an asteroid impact it was to small to cause any type of global disruption, A large impact would have cooled both hemispheres but only the Northern Hemisphere cooled 12KYA, the Southern Hemisphere continued to warm. This cooling in the NH and warming in the SH is characteristic of a meltwater pulse draining into the Artic not an asteroid impact.

How is it for certain? What makes it certain it was only one large impact? The theory is meteor(s) hit the ice sheet causing instant flooding and from it melt water rushing into the arctic and the channeled scablands of the north West and into the pacific/Atlantic. There is a lot of evidence to suggest something catastrophic happened and with time I think more info will paint a clearer picture. Luckily science is never settled.

Willamette Meteorite - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I find it very interesting.




Another very interesting video.

 

[Stylizer1]

 

[lomiller1]

How is it for certain? What makes it certain it was only one large impact?

The crater is 58 million years old, who cares if it was one large impact or not, it has nothing to do with anything occurring 12 thousand years ago.

The theory is meteor(s) hit the ice sheet causing instant flooding and from it melt water rushing into the arctic and the channeled scablands of the north West and into the pacific/Atlantic.

Do you have any idea how big an impact is required to melt 1 000 Km^3 worth of ice? (~ten million Hiroshima bombs) An impact this large would have a global signature that simply doesn't exist. Meltwater pulses and megafloods OTOH, of that scale happen regularly during deglaciation and there was just such a flood in the Beaufort Sea that has been dated to 12 900 the start of the Younger Dryas.

The source of the climate disruption at that time is already solved, there is simply no need to invoke an asteroid impact, practicably a massive one that inexplicably leaves no physical trace.

There is a lot of evidence to suggest something catastrophic happened and with time

Lots of claims but no real evidence, and every time people look at the supposed "evidence" like claims of micro-diamonds or fires they find it's all pretty mundane stuff that has nothing to do with an asteroid impact.

 

[Stylizer1]

The source of the climate disruption at that time is already solved, there is simply no need to invoke an asteroid impact, practicably a massive one that inexplicably leaves no physical trace.




Lots of claims but no real evidence, and every time people look at the supposed "evidence" like claims of micro-diamonds or fires they find it's all pretty mundane stuff that has nothing to do with an asteroid impact.

That's good to know. Thanks.

 

[Stylizer1]

Do you have any idea how big an impact is required to melt 1 000 Km^3 worth of ice? (~ten million Hiroshima bombs) An impact this large would have a global signature that simply doesn't exist. Meltwater pulses and megafloods OTOH, of that scale happen regularly during deglaciation and there was just such a flood in the Beaufort Sea that has been dated to 12 900 the start of the Younger Dryas.

How much power does a meteor have?


Calculations show that a meteorite with a diameter of 30 m, weighing about 300,000 tons, traveling at a velocity of 15 km/sec (33,500 miles/hour) would release energy equivalent to about 20 million tons of TNT.

How many tons of TNT is an atomic bomb?


bomb is of course in magnitude; as the President announced after the Hiroshima attack, the explosive energy of each of the atomic bombs was equivalent to about 20,000 tons of T.N.T.


If the ice sheet was hit by multipule meteors one could argue that there was enough energy to cause the melting you deem impossible. Also these calculations the meteor is only travelling at 33,500 m/h. What if it were travelling 40,000 or 70,000 m/h?

What is the average speed of meteors?


According to the American Meteor Society, meteorites usually hit the Earth's atmosphere going around 160,000 MPH. Meteors enter the atmosphere at speeds ranging from 11 km/sec (25,000 mph), to 72 km/sec (160,000 mph!)




Think of it like this lets say many meteors hit the earth with in a time range of 1 week Some hitting the ice sheets, some hitting water(very high probability) and some hit land in varying sizes, what would that cause? The ones that hit the water would create enormous waves/tsunami's that would obliterate any coastline and then some within it's reach. The ones that hit the land would would obliterate the surroundings and then some causing rock to get jetted into the atmosphere. What goes up must come down. Now you have all of this debris falling back to earth on fire causing massive fires. The ones that hit the ice would do the same thing as the other but this time with ice/water. The water that doesn't get burned off from the impact(which would create a hell of a lot of vapour) gets ejected also into the atmosphere and stays in up there until the accumulation forces it to come down. Torrential precipitation like no natural storm could cause.

This sounds like a great story of biblical proportions. Oh wait, religions around the world all have stories of catastrophes of some sort. I am not into religion at all but this makes you think, before any knowledge of the ice age by the scientific community these stories were written. This is not a religion debate now, I'm just saying.

Also, what happened to the mega fauna of North America? That's tight a bunch of hunter gatherers over hunted and killed off hundreds of species because they had a similar mind state as todays people where they want to take everything for themselves. One problem is why didn't the mega fuana of Africa become extinct too? If Africa was the starting place of homosapiens you would think that there would be no greater population anywhere else in the world. they didn't over hunt.

This could be a great debate but you believe the science is settled then there really isn't anything else to talk about.


Very interesting read.

https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.0800560105

 

[lomiller1]

How much power does a meteor have?


Calculations show that a meteorite with a diameter of 30 m, weighing about 300,000 tons, traveling at a velocity of 15 km/sec (33,500 miles/hour) would release energy equivalent to about 20 million tons of TNT.

https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.0800560105

To melt the volume of ice you are talking about requires 100 000 million tons of TNT, and that's if ALL that energy went into melting ice instead of vaporizing it. That's ~40 000 Barringer sized craters all at once without leaving a single shred of physical evidence. It doesn't matter if it's a single large collision or a whole bunch of smaller ones, it's utterly implausible for there would be no visible creators for such an event, and the effect would still be global, which it wasn't.

https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.0800560105

"Black mats" are formed by the frying out of swampy or wet soil, not fires as postulated by the impact hypothesis.

The micromorphology of Younger Dryas-aged black mats from Nevada, Arizona, Texas and New Mexico | Quaternary Research | Cambridge Core

The micromorphology of Younger Dryas-aged black mats from Nevada, Arizona, Texas and New Mexico - Volume 85 Issue 1

www.cambridge.org

 

[Stylizer1]

To melt the volume of ice you are talking about requires 100 000 million tons of TNT, and that's if ALL that energy went into melting ice instead of vaporizing it. That's ~40 000 Barringer sized craters all at once without leaving a single shred of physical evidence. It doesn't matter if it's a single large collision or a whole bunch of smaller ones, it's utterly implausible for there would be no visible creators for such an event, and the effect would still be global, which it wasn't.





"Black mats" are formed by the frying out of swampy or wet soil, not fires as postulated by the impact hypothesis.

The micromorphology of Younger Dryas-aged black mats from Nevada, Arizona, Texas and New Mexico | Quaternary Research | Cambridge Core

The micromorphology of Younger Dryas-aged black mats from Nevada, Arizona, Texas and New Mexico - Volume 85 Issue 1

www.cambridge.org

The good thing about a hypothesis is that anyone can have one. There are many concerning this issue and I am highlighting the ones I find interesting. In my reasoning many different events happened that could be the reason for such changes to earth. Along with the fires that would have been caused by an astroidal impact there is also the chance of record levels of precipitation that could have come from it also.

As per your link:

Black mats are organic-rich sediments and soils that form in wet environments associated with spring discharge. Micromorphological and geochemical analyses of 25 black mats dating to the Younger Dryas Chronozone (12.9–11.7 ka) and early Holocene were conducted to determine their composition and depositional environment.

The thing here is during that period of time and not only limited to north America there are signs of a major event that caused that. If this was a periodical phenomenon we would see more evidence of it occurring during other stages over the last 100,000 years in this region. This is unique to this time and the question is what caused the conditions for it to happen.

At the impact spot everything would be vaporized but the further you get from the sight the less vaporization occurs and you get the right conditions for water to melt. What ever hole/crater that is made would get filled back in with water/sediment. The sheer weight of the ice would also cause a glacial isostatic adjustment or rebounding of the land.

What is glacial isostatic adjustment?

Glacial isostatic adjustment, the ongoing movement of land once burdened by ice-age glacier, is also called the Mattress Effect.

oceanservice.noaa.gov

Earth is always on the move, constantly, if slowly, changing. Temperatures rise and fall in cycles over millions of years. The last ice age occurred just 16,000 years ago, when great sheets of ice, two miles thick, covered much of Earth's Northern Hemisphere. Though the ice melted long ago, the land once under and around the ice is still rising and falling in reaction to its ice-age burden.


This ongoing movement of land is called glacial isostatic adjustment. Here's how it works: Imagine lying down on a soft mattress and then getting up from the same spot. You see an indentation in the mattress where your body had been, and a puffed-up area around the indentation where the mattress rose. Once you get up, the mattress takes a little time before it relaxes back to its original shape.


Even the strongest materials (including the Earth's crust) move, or deform, when enough pressure is applied. So when ice by the megaton settled on parts of the Earth for several thousand years, the ice bore down on the land beneath it, and the land rose up beyond the ice's perimeter—just like the mattress did when you lay down on and then got up off of it.


That's what happened over large portions of the Northern Hemisphere during the last ice age, when ice covered the Midwest and Northeast United States as well as much of Canada. Even though the ice retreated long ago, North America is still rising where the massive layers of ice pushed it down. The U.S. East Coast and Great Lakes regions—once on the bulging edges, or forebulge, of those ancient ice layers—are still slowly sinking from forebulge collapse.

The Barringer crater is in the desert so it's easy to see. Other craters which are found in different areas are not so easy to find but they are still being found. Advances in technology will surely shed more light on things which may be certain today but can change in the future.

 

[Stylizer1]

 

[Stylizer1]

To melt the volume of ice you are talking about requires 100 000 million tons of TNT, and that's if ALL that energy went into melting ice instead of vaporizing it. That's ~40 000 Barringer sized craters all at once without leaving a single shred of physical evidence. It doesn't matter if it's a single large collision or a whole bunch of smaller ones, it's utterly implausible for there would be no visible creators for such an event, and the effect would still be global, which it wasn't.





"Black mats" are formed by the frying out of swampy or wet soil, not fires as postulated by the impact hypothesis.

The micromorphology of Younger Dryas-aged black mats from Nevada, Arizona, Texas and New Mexico | Quaternary Research | Cambridge Core

The micromorphology of Younger Dryas-aged black mats from Nevada, Arizona, Texas and New Mexico - Volume 85 Issue 1

www.cambridge.org

In this video I found this guys say an impact would generate 545 megatons of TNT. That would be 545 million tons of TNT. So it's possible from your calculations.

 

[lomiller1]

In this video I found this guys say an impact would generate 545 megatons of TNT. That would be 545 million tons of TNT. So it's possible from your calculations.

Pay attention to the zero's in my post. It says melting 1000 Km^3 worth of ice take 100 000 million tons (100 000 megatons) of TNT, It would take ~180 impacts of the size in this video to melt that much ice. (Again people tend to have almost no idea just how much energy it takes to melt ice)

WRT megafloods, they are quite common during de-glaciation they just are not caused by things like Volcanos are asteroid impacts. What happens is that large glacial lakes form on melting ice sheets over decades or centuries then drain in a matter of days when the ice containing them collapses.

A large megaflood draining into the artic reduces the salinity of the artic ocean and that in turn changes where the gulf stream subsides into the deep ocean. Without the warming influence of the gulf stream temperatures in Europe drop rapidly and dramatically. The may be a mini version of this going on right now, not enough to cool Europe one of the few place on the planet that is cooling is an area in the North Atlantic where you would expect with a weaker AMOC.

RealClimate: Stronger evidence for a weaker Atlantic overturning circulation

RealClimate: Through two new studies in Nature, the weakening of the Gulf Stream System is back in the scientific headlines. But even before that, interesting new papers have been published - high time for an update on this topic. Let's start with tomorrow’s issue of Nature, which besides the...

www.realclimate.org

 

[Stylizer1]

Pay attention to the zero's in my post. It says melting 1000 Km^3 worth of ice take 100 000 million tons (100 000 megatons) of TNT, It would take ~180 impacts of the size in this video to melt that much ice. (Again people tend to have almost no idea just how much energy it takes to melt ice)

WRT megafloods, they are quite common during de-glaciation they just are not caused by things like Volcanos are asteroid impacts. What happens is that large glacial lakes form on melting ice sheets over decades or centuries then drain in a matter of days when the ice containing them collapses.

A large megaflood draining into the artic reduces the salinity of the artic ocean and that in turn changes where the gulf stream subsides into the deep ocean. Without the warming influence of the gulf stream temperatures in Europe drop rapidly and dramatically. The may be a mini version of this going on right now, not enough to cool Europe one of the few place on the planet that is cooling is an area in the North Atlantic where you would expect with a weaker AMOC.

RealClimate: Stronger evidence for a weaker Atlantic overturning circulation

RealClimate: Through two new studies in Nature, the weakening of the Gulf Stream System is back in the scientific headlines. But even before that, interesting new papers have been published - high time for an update on this topic. Let's start with tomorrow’s issue of Nature, which besides the...

www.realclimate.org

This is fun. It's all theoretical. I guess you had to be there.

Like I wrote earlier, the impact of meteors would have many more repercussions than just the spot the land they would heat up everything around them, meteors hitting the Rockies could send millions of tons of debris everywhere, earth quakes, tsunamis, volcanic eruptions.

 

[Stylizer1]

 

[Hippasus]

I think peer-reviewed work shows a commitment to literary history, the possible reproduction of experimental results, and an openness to other opinions.