GDT: Loss Angeles Kings @ Calgary Flames 3/29/07 6:00pm PST, 790 KABC FSW

[Reaper45]

Tkachuck was running around like he had balls of steel because at the beginning of the game his coach put on the ice when Andy and Clifford were not. After Andy went after Tkachuck, he went away and became target that even Brown nailed his ass three time in 10 seconds and just took it. Not getting how useless Andy hate, when linesman was not going to let him kick the crap out of Tkaturtle.

Also, to deflect some of the Andreoff hate, both he and Nolan have been totally neutered by Sutter. Anytime either of them have taken a penalty or gotten into a fight that Sutter didn't like, they're banished to the press box for an eternity. Sutter has his guys and Clifford is one of them, much like King was, and those guys don't get out of the lineup unless they're hurt, regardless of how terrible their play gets. I personally agree a lot with BK but I think he's wrong, it's time to move Clifford out for another cheaper option. I mean Clifford gave Tkachuk a stern talking to. At least Andreoff gave him a face wash and tried to get him to go, which got him ejected and likely into the doghouse again.

 

[kingsfan28]

One thing I do love about Tkachuk is that he kept going hard right back at everyone in terms of hitting. And even if he was a total choad about it (lol dropping gloves and charging Muzzin and McNabb trying to throw before theyr'e ready) I give him props for his willingness to oblige a fight considering he's hid behind the instigator all year (2 fighting majors prior to tonight, what a ****ing spot picker for a dirty player).

The coverage was embarrassing though. Calling Doughty a coward for not fighting by himself as if HE was the one who did something wrong was lol.

Same with calling out Muzzin. Tkachuk basically tried to jump him and he was like "WTF are you doing?", and skated away. Keith Jones was crying on air because he didn't fight him too.

 

[kingsfan28]

In this instance, a Sen went after Allison and fought him which led to the Kings and Deadmarsh getting pissed. So I guess I'd like to see anyone on the Kings act like Deadmarsh here after the initial elbow and especially after the attempted hit last night.

There should be nothing going through Andreoff's head except "I'm going to kill this guy" after Tkachuk took the run at center ice. Instead, we get a "I don't want to take a penalty when we are basically out of the playoffs already" move which still led to a ****ing penalty against the Kings and Andreoff's ejection.

Of course, there was zero basis for giving Andreoff a game misconduct but that is another topic entirely and makes me wonder why I still pay for season seats to watch this league.

He tried, but Tkachuk hid behind the ref and wouldn't engage. He held onto his stick and just skated away from the danger even when Forbort got involved. He's a not so much as a tough guy when he can't line up next to a guy and try and get the jump on him.

 

[Chazz Reinhold]

Jim Fox is starting to become unbearable with his homerism overall, and his "yep!" as the Kings are about to score a goal. Chill out, man.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

He tried, but Tkachuk hid behind the ref and wouldn't engage. He held onto his stick and just skated away from the danger even when Forbort got involved. He's a not so much as a tough guy when he can't line up next to a guy and try and get the jump on him.

Immediately what I thought of when I saw this:



Verbalized what I've been trying to say since the incident

 

[BigKing]

Nothing stopped Andreoff but Andreoff.

The linesmen? Stop it.

He should of been gloves off and attacking instead of what he did which allowed the linesmen time to intervene.

Only excuse is that they were there to win the game and taking penalties were a concern. Of course, AA took two minors while trying to look tough, never throwing a punch. Much like how Ivanans was mostly clueless in regards to enforcing, that was AA last game.

As for Clifford, he's 8th overall in fighting majors this year. We can replace him with Nolan or Andreoff when those two act like they want that job.

Now replace him with Iginla? We can talk about that!

 

[SettlementRichie10]

Remember when McCarty wailed on Claude Lemieux in that infamous brawl? Lemieux was literally on all fours with his head tucked in, and McCarty still wailed on him.

That's the kind of response needed when a pest takes runs at your top players.

 

[member 88115]

lmao, People want a borderline Bertuzzi incident. Get real.

 

[Rusty Batch]

Then why discuss anything?

They are also extremely well compensated.

Discuss whatever you want, just seems silly to be so out of touch with reality that people on here sit behind their computers and call actually really tough guys, spineless. Especially kings players who are mostly cup winners and largely because of how physical and "gritty" their brand of hockey has been over this past decade.

Why are they not in the playoffs right now? It's probably almost entirely because they are older and not as good, it happens, deal with it...
I dont think its because they are soft. Also losing Voynov didnt help...

 

[Reaper45]

Nothing stopped Andreoff but Andreoff.

The linesmen? Stop it.

He should of been gloves off and attacking instead of what he did which allowed the linesmen time to intervene.

Only excuse is that they were there to win the game and taking penalties were a concern. Of course, AA took two minors while trying to look tough, never throwing a punch. Much like how Ivanans was mostly clueless in regards to enforcing, that was AA last game.

As for Clifford, he's 8th overall in fighting majors this year. We can replace him with Nolan or Andreoff when those two act like they want that job.

Now replace him with Iginla? We can talk about that!

His response was still better than Clifford's stern talking to him. I didnt like Andreoff's response either but he still did more than the teams resident tough guy.

Clifford is eighth in majors and makes more than all ahead of him except Boll and produces about the same or less for more money.

McLeod 1.25 m 5g 1a -3 in 55 gp
Boll 1.7 m 0g 3a -3 in 50 gp
Haley 600k 2g 9a +5 in 55 gp
Thorburn 1.2 m 3g 1a -7 in 60 gp
Watson 575k 5g 11a +12 in 73 gp
Borowiecki 1m 1g 1a -4 in 64 gp
Martin 1.1m 5g 4a even in 74 gp
Clifford 1.6m 5g 5a -3 in 68 gp

 

[BigKing]

His response was still better than Clifford's stern talking to him. I didnt like Andreoff's response either but he still did more than the teams resident tough guy.

Clifford is eighth in majors and makes more than all ahead of him except Boll and produces about the same or less for more money.

McLeod 1.25 m 5g 1a -3 in 55 gp
Boll 1.7 m 0g 3a -3 in 50 gp
Haley 600k 2g 9a +5 in 55 gp
Thorburn 1.2 m 3g 1a -7 in 60 gp
Watson 575k 5g 11a +12 in 73 gp
Borowiecki 1m 1g 1a -4 in 64 gp
Martin 1.1m 5g 4a even in 74 gp
Clifford 1.6m 5g 5a -3 in 68 gp

I totally get it and would of liked more from Clifford in the Calgary game. If he was first on the scene like Andreoff and did the same thing, I'd be raking him over the coals instead.

There is always this talk about how it is so easy to replace him but most of those clamoring for him to be replaced wouldn't want to do it in exchange for any of these guys listed except for Watson and Martin. Of course, Watson was the 18th overall pick in the 2010 draft and is just now finally playing in the NHL and Martin actually carries a $2.5MM cap hit so they aren't perfect either. I think Boll's cap hit is $900M but I could be wrong. I would of loved Martin this off-season but $2.5MM wasn't going to happen here.

You like tough hockey so you might replace him for someone else on that list that makes less but I feel that a lot of the "replace" crowd thinks they can just find a guy off the street for league minimum that will do a better job fighting while also scoring more. That's my major issue with the "just trade him and replace him because it is easy" theory which also completely ignores that this is the guy that has stepped up for this team the past seven seasons. I know it is tough right now to talk about intangibles when there isn't enough tangibles from this team, but it is being completely ignored RE: Clifford v. Andreoff or Nolan.

I'm Nolan's biggest fan but he can't stay healthy. For all of the "Clifford is one punch away from being a vegetable" talk, there he is leading the team in fights again. Don't get me wrong though: I'd like for him to be better. I just have a hard time getting worked up over his production when he is overpaid by $500-600M at best while there are guys being overpaid by $3MM on this team that aren't, for the most part, doing the job expected of them when Clifford actually is doing it...for the most part.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

His response was still better than Clifford's stern talking to him. I didnt like Andreoff's response either but he still did more than the teams resident tough guy.

Clifford is eighth in majors and makes more than all ahead of him except Boll and produces about the same or less for more money.

McLeod 1.25 m 5g 1a -3 in 55 gp
Boll 1.7 m 0g 3a -3 in 50 gp
Haley 600k 2g 9a +5 in 55 gp
Thorburn 1.2 m 3g 1a -7 in 60 gp
Watson 575k 5g 11a +12 in 73 gp
Borowiecki 1m 1g 1a -4 in 64 gp
Martin 1.1m 5g 4a even in 74 gp
Clifford 1.6m 5g 5a -3 in 68 gp

That's because Clifford can take an actual shift.

Also don't know where you're getting those numbers, Matt Martin is making 2.5. If anything, you're helping demonstrate Clifford's salary is pretty appropriate for what he brings given Boll, Martin, make more. Watson is on his ELC and is a high draft pick, he'll be getting paid. Thorburn wishes he was Clifford. Haley has bounced back and forth between the minors. Sens fans like that Boroweicki hits but have otherwise wanted him to not play either. I wish he was making less too, but again, Clifford is not the problem. Hell, the only people on that list that are outproducing him are a 1st round pick and a guy who has gotten all his points by osmosis (Haley) and some power play and ES time with Thornton/Burns!

Picking on Clifford is like firing the secretary when the CEO got a million dollar bonus.

 

[BigKing]

I'll be accused of living in the past and we can't do that anymore, but Watson and Martin are the only ones that ever have a chance to be on the ice in Game 5 of the SCFs in double overtime, let alone assist on the GWG.

When it comes to being a guy that can handle himself, the fact that he can skate a shift and not kill you is why he isn't just easily replaceable.

They can get a better fighter, sure. To get both player and fighter is more difficult.

I'd like it to be Andreoff but I'm going to have to give up the ghost at some point in regards to him being a tough guy. Insignificant hits and barely drops the gloves. It's a shame because he is a good fighter. Good technician and can take a punch. Just not coming together for him.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

I'll be accused of living in the past and we can't do that anymore, but Watson and Martin are the only ones that ever have a chance to be on the ice in Game 5 of the SCFs in double overtime, let alone assist on the GWG.

When it comes to being a guy that can handle himself, the fact that he can skate a shift and not kill you is why he isn't just easily replaceable.

They can get a better fighter, sure. To get both player and fighter is more difficult.

I'd like it to be Andreoff but I'm going to have to give up the ghost at some point in regards to him being a tough guy. Insignificant hits and barely drops the gloves. It's a shame because he is a good fighter. Good technician and can take a punch. Just not coming together for him.

I concur, and I thought Andreoff was emerging last season only to take a step backward this season imo. He's not bad, he's just merely there. decent skater but not fast enough to be in the play, gritty but not in the play enough to really hit, good with the puck but nothing really positive or negative results, and he CAN fight but it's like no opponents take him seriously enough to oblige. It used to not be for lack of effort, he just can't get anyone to go. He's basically identityless and that's a problem if you're a depth guy.

We've been short on lunatics in this era which is weird when the GM loves the Marchment types. Or we get them and neuter them, which I hate. It's like the 'even-keeled' approach is actively designed to discourage ANY emotion. I'm convinced Steve Downie would skate away from scrums if he were here.

 

[CowMix]

Lol this is a joke Tkachuk cheap shots star players and hes allowed to pick whoever he wants to fight? And thats honorable? Why would Doughty or Muzzin let his team be down a 20-30 minute defenseman for 5 minutes? Playing smart doesn't make you a coward. I guess if a Kings cheapshots a flame he should try to respond by fighting Gaudreau.

 

[kingsholygrail]

Tough guys that can also play their position competently is what's hard to find.

 

[Reaper45]

That's because Clifford can take an actual shift.

Also don't know where you're getting those numbers, Matt Martin is making 2.5. If anything, you're helping demonstrate Clifford's salary is pretty appropriate for what he brings given Boll, Martin, make more. Watson is on his ELC and is a high draft pick, he'll be getting paid. Thorburn wishes he was Clifford. Haley has bounced back and forth between the minors. Sens fans like that Boroweicki hits but have otherwise wanted him to not play either. I wish he was making less too, but again, Clifford is not the problem. Hell, the only people on that list that are outproducing him are a 1st round pick and a guy who has gotten all his points by osmosis (Haley) and some power play and ES time with Thornton/Burns!

Picking on Clifford is like firing the secretary when the CEO got a million dollar bonus.

I'm guilty of googling Matt Martin salary, my mistake. I'm not saying he's THE problem with this roster. I'm just of the opinion that his salary could be better allocated on this roster and you have more than competant enough guys at cheaper salaries who can handle his role. The cost cutting has to come from somewhere and having 3 guys who can basically do the same thing is completely redundant and especially when one makes as much as he does.

 

[BigKing]

Lol this is a joke Tkachuk cheap shots star players and hes allowed to pick whoever he wants to fight? And thats honorable? Why would Doughty or Muzzin let his team be down a 20-30 minute defenseman for 5 minutes? Playing smart doesn't make you a coward. I guess if a Kings cheapshots a flame he should try to respond by fighting Gaudreau.

- Agree that Tkachuk doesn't get to choose which is why the Muzzin thing was stupid.

- I want Doughty to stick up for himself since Tkachuk keeps going at him. This isn't a pest trying to get in the head of a star player, it's the case of a guy who has already committed a suspension-worthy offense against Doughty and has not stopped going after him. He isn't pestering Doughty: he's bullying him. It's also not Joey Kocur doing this: it's a good player from the other team that Doughty should be able to handle in a fight, even if it is just wrestling.

 

[BigKing]

I'm guilty of googling Matt Martin salary, my mistake. I'm not saying he's THE problem with this roster. I'm just of the opinion that his salary could be better allocated on this roster and you have more than competant enough guys at cheaper salaries who can handle his role. The cost cutting has to come from somewhere and having 3 guys who can basically do the same thing is completely redundant and especially when one makes as much as he does.

Boll's cap hit is only $900M so you gave him too much credit, so the Martin one evens out.

Agree that his salary could be better allocated; however, we disagree that there are three guys on the roster that basically do the same thing since both Nolan and Clifford don't mix it up too much. But even at $1.6MM, it's hard to say how much better of a player you are getting allocating those monies elsewhere.

Now, Nolan/AA/Clifford are very similar in that neither of them score very much, but that's not the point!

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

- Agree that Tkachuk doesn't get to choose which is why the Muzzin thing was stupid.

- I want Doughty to stick up for himself since Tkachuk keeps going at him. This isn't a pest trying to get in the head of a star player, it's the case of a guy who has already committed a suspension-worthy offense against Doughty and has not stopped going after him. He isn't pestering Doughty: he's bullying him. It's also not Joey Kocur doing this: it's a good player from the other team that Doughty should be able to handle in a fight, even if it is just wrestling.

With Doughty on the ice, the Kings are better defensively than the best team in the league. Without him, they are 16th. Tkachuk wins that tradeoff over and over which is why he's going for it so hard.

Odds are next time we play them, we're eliminated; if that **** show continues, I'll fully agree with you. I don't fully disagree with you now, I just have to furrow my brow because it's obvious what Tkachuk is going for, he's being a spot picker extraordinaire and even if I want Doughty to oblige that fight it completely sabotages our team (no matter how unrealistic their chances are now.

Edit: This is from last week so can't imagine it has changed too much:

LA Doughty on-ice: GA/60: 1.5, GF%: 56.10%

LA Doughty off-ice: GA/60: 2.31, GF% 44.60%

Results-wise, it's a completely different team defensively with Drew off the ice. That GA/60 is insane; basically, LA is better GA/60 with Doughty on the ice than the best team in the league (WSH is 1.73), whereas with him off, they're 16th. If you go by GF%, Drew would make the Kings 4th best in the league, whereas with him off, they're 26th.

While carrying around a rookie and leading his team in every icetime situation and crazy deployment with respect to zone starts and matchups, toughest competition.

 

[BigKing]

With Doughty on the ice, the Kings are better defensively than the best team in the league. Without him, they are 16th. Tkachuk wins that tradeoff over and over which is why he's going for it so hard.

Odds are next time we play them, we're eliminated; if that **** show continues, I'll fully agree with you. I don't fully disagree with you now, I just have to furrow my brow because it's obvious what Tkachuk is going for, he's being a spot picker extraordinaire and even if I want Doughty to oblige that fight it completely sabotages our team (no matter how unrealistic their chances are now.

Edit: This is from last week so can't imagine it has changed too much:

LA Doughty on-ice: GA/60: 1.5, GF%: 56.10%

LA Doughty off-ice: GA/60: 2.31, GF% 44.60%

Results-wise, it's a completely different team defensively with Drew off the ice. That GA/60 is insane; basically, LA is better GA/60 with Doughty on the ice than the best team in the league (WSH is 1.73), whereas with him off, they're 16th. If you go by GF%, Drew would make the Kings 4th best in the league, whereas with him off, they're 26th.

While carrying around a rookie and leading his team in every icetime situation and crazy deployment with respect to zone starts and matchups, toughest competition.

I get it. I really do.

I think the issue is more important than two points at this stage of the season. They played very well after the Iginla fight. Where was that kind of play against Vancouver at home a few weeks back?

Hard for me to give a **** about two points when they have the slimmest of chances to get in when they've been ******** away points all season. So now when they have a guy taking runs at the team's (arguably) best player, they are going to hunker down and play good hockey instead of settling things? It's beyond infuriating for me as a guy that's missed six home games all season long.

I've had next Thursday circled ever since Tkachuk landed that elbow. If they are actually eliminated by then, I expect to be god damn entertained!

I don't need Doughty to fight him, but I'd love for him to step up and just put an end to the whole thing. If Tkachuk minds his business--which he might do since he isn't at home--then no big deal; however, if he screws with Doughty some more and Drew does nothing--or this team does next to nothing--then we've got a real problem.

Of course, most of us think this team has a real problem regardless so I'm prepared to not be surprised.

 

[SettlementRichie10]

Discuss whatever you want, just seems silly to be so out of touch with reality that people on here sit behind their computers and call actually really tough guys, spineless. Especially kings players who are mostly cup winners and largely because of how physical and "gritty" their brand of hockey has been over this past decade.

Why are they not in the playoffs right now? It's probably almost entirely because they are older and not as good, it happens, deal with it...
I dont think its because they are soft. Also losing Voynov didnt help...

You're really opening up the wrong can of worms here. Commentary can be leveled at professionals without having walked in their shoes. Otherwise, there goes any and all online criticism of sporting, politics, academia, etc. It's possible to form an opinion on something from observation alone.

 

[SettlementRichie10]

lmao, People want a borderline Bertuzzi incident. Get real.

Yeah, that's exactly what people are asking for. Hyperbole does not = argument.

 

[Herby]

Boll's cap hit is only $900M

Almost as overpaid as Richards was, almost!

 

[Johnny Utah]

I agree that Andreoff should have just wailed on him but he's in and out of Sutter's doghouse he was probably nervous. But if Tkachuk tries to steamroll Doughty you just have to drop the gloves and pummel; watch what Thornton did to Emelin.

The Kings response was crap. Tkachuk walked away without taking a beating. Kypreos said it best in the 90's they would go after the star player on the other team so then Tkachuk feels like he screwed his own teammates; Kings did nothing to Johnny Hockey or Monahan.