Los Angeles Carter+Fourth Liners Lose to Wings 2-3

[scryan]

Forbort had a horrible game. He has had a few solid games as well, he isn't terrible but he also isn't going to be a shutdown defenseman as some on this board have said. At this point in time he is probably a 6 or 7 defenseman with some limited upside to develop into a #5 type guy who won't kill you in a sheltered 3rd pair role. I don't know why people have been getting on Ziggy for the criticism, perhaps some people just associate him with being a "kid" but he is almost 24 years old, this is not a 20 year old guy fresh out of juniors, he kind of is what he is.

As for the coaches. Sutter, Stevens and Payne need to do a better job communicating so they don't end up with the Andreoff line out there with Forbort. They could start by just gettin rid of that line completely.

Damn, he is 24?
That sucks.

 

[bob77]

Forbort had a horrible game. He has had a few solid games as well, he isn't terrible but he also isn't going to be a shutdown defenseman as some on this board have said. At this point in time he is probably a 6 or 7 defenseman with some limited upside to develop into a #5 type guy who won't kill you in a sheltered 3rd pair role. I don't know why people have been getting on Ziggy for the criticism, perhaps some people just associate him with being a "kid" but he is almost 24 years old, this is not a 20 year old guy fresh out of juniors, he kind of is what he is.

As for the coaches. Sutter, Stevens and Payne need to do a better job communicating so they don't end up with the Andreoff line out there with Forbort. They could start by just gettin rid of that line completely.

I agree, DF might kind of end up being what he is as you state, but he's only on game 6. Meanwhile, McNabb is almost 25, and isn't a 20 year old coming out of junior either. He is what he is as well, yet most on this board keep thinking he's going to improve a lot, and he's played about 120 games by now. Let's see what Forbort looks like after 120 games. It's not easy being a D in this environment. It's like DS expects the team to give up 1 or less every game, maybe 2, but he's not happy with that. Yet it doesn't seem to matter to him if Fs can't score. It's mind boggling, but you can't fault the man because he won two cups. But it's also a recipe for disaster, like missing the playoffs and somewhat lucky to win the second cup, (down in every series). This team needs some offense, and it needs the system tweaked a bit to do this in the regular season, and it needs some personnel added, like Weal, Mersch, etc.

 

[bob77]

Damn, he is 24?
That sucks.

He's 23

 

[scryan]

He's 23

Oh, then he is fine

 

[Sacha Baron Corbin]

I'm tired of this 4th line experiment, they have been garbage all year, now it's to the point where they are costing us games. We could probably waive both Andy and Nolan and neither would get claimed. Weal and Mersch cannot be any worse than these 3 right now.

 

[scryan]

I'm tired of this 4th line experiment, they have been garbage all year, now it's to the point where they are costing us games. We could probably waive both Andy and Nolan and neither would get claimed. Weal and Mersch cannot be any worse than these 3 right now.

I feel like we could easily get a new used washing machine and a bag of pucks for Nolan.

 

[damacles1156]

Rookies with little NHL experience make mistakes, you people know this, and it's going to happen.

McNabb just went through a stretch of poor play, and he has over 100 NHL games.

Forbort is going to struggle, I am surprised he looks as decent as he does, this early. This is not new in development.

Kings lost, it's tough to win games where you only score two goals.

The fourth line may need a shakeup on the road, maybe try Weal for road games. Kopitar's line continues to be awful at ES.

On to the next game.

 

[HookKing]

Forbort had a horrible game. He has had a few solid games as well, he isn't terrible but he also isn't going to be a shutdown defenseman as some on this board have said. At this point in time he is probably a 6 or 7 defenseman with some limited upside to develop into a #5 type guy who won't kill you in a sheltered 3rd pair role. I don't know why people have been getting on Ziggy for the criticism, perhaps some people just associate him with being a "kid" but he is almost 24 years old, this is not a 20 year old guy fresh out of juniors, he kind of is what he is.

As for the coaches. Sutter, Stevens and Payne need to do a better job communicating so they don't end up with the Andreoff line out there with Forbort. They could start by just gettin rid of that line completely.

Drivel. Sutter was so upset with Forbort he benched McBain. I would argue Martinez was the worst D out there. Gave up two gimmes right in front of the net. Neither went in so it doesn't count right? McNabb wasn't much better and even St. Drew had multiple brain farts. What beat the Kings tonight was lines 2, 3 and 4 unable to put the puck in the net. BTW, the Kings D is second in GA. I also think Sutter had a bad game. Outcoached by a mile.

 

[damacles1156]

Production is nonexistent from Kopitar's line, and Shore/Andy lines.

That has to get fixed moving forward. I am hoping Dwight King can provide some production when he gets back.

 

[damacles1156]

Drivel. Sutter was so upset with Forbort he benched McBain. I would argue Martinez was the worst D out there. Gave up two gimmes right in front of the net. Neither went in so it doesn't count right? McNabb wasn't much better and even St. Drew had multiple brain farts. What beat the Kings tonight was lines 2, 3 and 4 unable to put the puck in the net. BTW, the Kings D is second in GA. I also think Sutter had a bad game. Outcoached by a mile.

With you on the Defense. It's not even a problem, they are healthy in just about ever metric.

The Kings Offense is just garbage outside of Carter/Toffoli/Lucic.

 

[scryan]

Rookies with little NHL experience make mistakes, you people know this, and it's going to happen.

McNabb just went through a stretch of poor play, and he has over 100 NHL games.

Forbort is going to struggle, I am surprised he looks as decent as he does, this early. This is not new in development.

Kings lost, it's tough to win games where you only score two goals.

The fourth line may need a shakeup on the road, maybe try Weal for road games. Kopitar's line continues to be awful at ES.

On to the next game.

You gotta admit, 23/24 is late to be breaking into the league as a green defenseman who is going to make mistakes... Not saying it can't work, but I am less optimistic given his age.

 

[damacles1156]

You gotta admit, 23/24 is late to be breaking into the league as a green defenseman who is going to make mistakes... Not saying it can't work, but I am less optimistic given his age.

Jake Muzzin was 23 when he broke into in the NHL. Most Defenders don't make an NHL roster until 22 about there. They are not forwards, they take longer to develop.

Forbort is not Drew Doughty, and Drew Doughty is not a measuring stick for Defeseman Development. McNabb was also 23 breaking into the league.

Slava Voynov was about 21. Willie Mitchell was 24 , Rob Scuderi was 23, ETC ,ETC I can go on and on.

Now if you want to criticize how long it took Forbort to get to the NHL being a 1st round pick, that's fine. It took him forever, and yes he is not worth that pick right now, but it is , what it is.

 

[Reaper45]

I don't know who's been worse, Clifford or Gaborik.

 

[damacles1156]

I don't know who's been worse, Clifford or Gaborik.

19 games in and Kopitar has 8 points, Gabo has 4.... Dustin Brown, while I love the guy, has a single goal in 19 games.

The Kings have bigger problems, than struggling rookies Shore/Forbort.

 

[scryan]

McNabb was also 23 breaking into the league.

To make my point.... I will delete all your words save a select few

I think expectations are/were higher then him being a McNabb.
I am happy with McNabb, the minutes he has played and the role he has held... But do you expect him to grow into a much bigger role?

I think if Forbort grows into playing like McNabb, it will be a slight disappointment no?
Also, trade Gabby for a new Zamboni.

 

[damacles1156]

To make my point.... I will delete all your words save a select few

I think expectations are/were higher then him being a McNabb.
I am happy with McNabb, the minutes he has played and the role he has held... But do you expect him to grow into a much bigger role?

I think if Forbort grows into playing like McNabb, it will be a slight disappointment no?
Also, trade Gabby for a new Zamboni.

They play different sytles, he is not going to end up like McNabb. At this point the Kings want Forbort to be servicable in any role that he can manage, so they at least get some value out of the pick.

He is not going to be a great defender, and that was apparent year three into his development.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Finally got to watch the replay. It's Detroit in Detroit, meh. Whatever.

Because he won the faceoffs, neither were from plays setting him up.

Dude. Carter's SH goal was A DIRECT PASS from Kopitar. Are people seriously making up reasons to hate him now or what?

from the bits and pieces of the game that I was able to watch, the fourth line had some major issues and Sutter got out maneuvered all night matching lines.

Sutter really needs to give Weal a shot, Andy Andy is fine as a spot starter but game in game out he is not the answer, I really think Weal could provide a defensive stabilizer on the fourth line with his speed.

Forbort is going to struggle and I've said before I'd rather he be ******* now provided he is able to gain the experience he needs for later this year.

I'm not certain Sutter got outmaneuvered, I think he literally could give less of a **** about matchups and he cares so much about spreading out the minutes to keep everyone fresh. We saw it last game, too. Is it a problem though? Absolutely. Everyone on the fourth line and third pairing is set up to fail when they have to play big minutes against the best the Red Wings have to offer.

Forbort had a horrible game. He has had a few solid games as well, he isn't terrible but he also isn't going to be a shutdown defenseman as some on this board have said. At this point in time he is probably a 6 or 7 defenseman with some limited upside to develop into a #5 type guy who won't kill you in a sheltered 3rd pair role. I don't know why people have been getting on Ziggy for the criticism, perhaps some people just associate him with being a "kid" but he is almost 24 years old, this is not a 20 year old guy fresh out of juniors, he kind of is what he is.

As for the coaches. Sutter, Stevens and Payne need to do a better job communicating so they don't end up with the Andreoff line out there with Forbort. They could start by just gettin rid of that line completely.

How many kids have come onto this team successfully on DEFENSE no less at 20? What was Alec Martinez doing at age 24?

Jake Muzzin was 23 when he broke into in the NHL. Most Defenders don't make an NHL roster until 22 about there. They are not forwards, they take longer to develop. I don't think he's going to be a crazy good stud, but it's also unfair to be mad when he's asked to put out a dumpster fire with a grease cannon.

Forbort is not Drew Doughty, and Drew Doughty is not a measuring stick for Defeseman Development. McNabb was also 23 breaking into the league.

Slava Voynov was about 21. Willie Mitchell was 24 , Rob Scuderi was 23, ETC ,ETC I can go on and on.

Now if you want to criticize how long it took Forbort to get to the NHL being a 1st round pick, that's fine. It took him forever, and yes he is not worth that pick right now, but it is , what it is.

This friggin exactly. He hasn't been bad. He got exposed tonight due to the absolute worst possible matchups and even then...

The criticism absolutely should be there, but to bury Derek Forbort's NHL career because of a crappy game IN DETROIT IN NOVEMBER a handful of games into his career with the worst possible matchups and zone starts all night is just people waiting to say "I told you so." This team has bigger issues than AA and Derek Forbort. And a lot of posters wanted us to get younger...here we are. This is what happens, they gain experience.

Edit Personally, I was really down on Forbort in the preseason, but some of the passes he's made out of the zone have been absolutely breathtaking. He's made two in particular that have better than anything I've seen from our D core period, incredibly hard, smooth, and right on the tape. That alone with his size makes him capable, but he should be a complimentary guy right now, and asking him to play with the fourth line is bad news, especially if his 'vet' partner is Fumbles McBain. Those guys will look great in victory, godawful in defeat. My bigger beef with him is how soft he is--not that he's not hitting, but that he's muscled easily, though his footspeed that i had an issue with before doens't seem to be one.

 

[damacles1156]

Forbort is going to be soft, I don't think that is ever going to leave his game.

What you do want, is Forbort to play like he did in the AHL playoff's when paired with Gravel.

They both chewed up a TON of minutes, and they took away ALL of the ice from forwards, Reach/Skating/Great passing. If Forbort can develop those more, and end up a number 3/4, The pick won't be a total disaster.

 

[damacles1156]

Also I think Jeff Carter is going to hit 70+ points this year, he is an absolute Beast.

 

[Herby]

I don't know who's been worse, Clifford or Gaborik.

I had high hopes that Clifford could be a Darren McCarty type player, maybe not quite as good but someone who could be a really effective 3rd line player. He is just horrible, he looks like Steve McKenna out there.

I don't know if it was the concussions, being rushed to the NHL or what, but he is just bad.

I think Gaborik is just on the downside of his career, 2014 playoffs was his last moment as a star in the NHL. He just isn't the dynamic skater he was in his prime.

 

[damacles1156]

Not having Clifford play in the AHL hurt his development,Lombardi/Futa have admitted to that already. I was hoping Clifford could develop into a more physical Dwight King type player.

It's just not happening.

 

[Winger23]

Also I think Jeff Carter is going to hit 70+ points this year, he is an absolute Beast.

Which makes Kopi expendable with the assumption the trade brings back a capable 2nd line center. I have to keep harping on it but salary wise and roster wise it makes the most sense to me.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

I didn't really notice him this game, but I was under the impression that Clifford has been really really good this year. He's not scoring, fine, but he's been the best of our fourth liners by a long shot, and outside of the last couple of games where they were boned by matchups and a silly amount of minutes, we've had one of the better, more effective fourth lines in the league from a minute-munching standpoint. Hell, they outplayed the 'best' fourth line, the Isles, head to head, and those guys would have no business going out with the third pairing vs. Datsyuk and co or Giroux and Voracek either.

Don't get me wrong, there's room for improvement, i.e. eliminating Andreoff's brain farts, and just getting Nolan to be consistent period, but Clifford is the least of our worries there, he knows his role and he's usually really good at it.

I guess between this and the Forbort stuff all I'm trying to say is evaluating guys when they're very clearly outmatched and the coach has no desire to help them is unfair. I don't even think I've seen a playoff game in the last few years where the coach tried harder to match up than Blashill did tonight, like, even Jim Fox pointed out one shift where the Wings saw, during the course of play, just Andreoff jump out and they went for a wholesale change for the Datsyuk line within 15 seconds.

 

[kingsholygrail]

Kings lose in Detroit.

/yawn

 

[Frolov 6'3]

Funny some all blame it on some rookies while that 3rd goal was all on Drew. Something he does more often.

All the time in the world and than a blind shot from the blue line while all skaters are up front.



Who cares, just blame Forbort who has played 6 NHL games so far.