London Knights 2023-24 Season Thread (Part 5)

[All the Answers]

They need to make them full time and pay them accordingly. Which would also mean an increase in ticket prices.

But then again, people would still bitch and moan from their couch

Do you know what an OHL official (linesman or referee) makes? I don't. Wondering what it would take. What's avg attendance (I know you've posted those numbers before). Say 3000/game league wide? Could league mandate $0.10 of each ticket goes to on ice official salaries? Would $100/ref and $50/liney each game (throwing out numbers) be sufficient to attract more talent. All this for discussion's sake.

 

[zman77]

Simpson was clutch in OT!

 

[rangersblues]

They need to make them full time and pay them accordingly. Which would also mean an increase in ticket prices.

But then again, people would still bitch and moan from their couch

Even if you make the officials full-time there's a couple of questions.

1. Are there enough quality referees to begin with? Just paying them more doesn't automatically make them better. That said it should attract better people.

2. By making them full-time are you denying them other careers? There's a shorter career span for referees than most other careers. What would they do after they're done officiating? Are we going to give them pensions like MPs and MPPs? If they can pursue other careers while officiating, does that really differ from what they're doing now?

 

[Fergus31]

Do you know what an OHL official (linesman or referee) makes? I don't. Wondering what it would take. What's avg attendance (I know you've posted those numbers before). Say 3000/game league wide? Could league mandate $0.10 of each ticket goes to on ice official salaries? Would $100/ref and $50/liney each game (throwing out numbers) be sufficient to attract more talent. All this for discussion's sake.

Adding prices to an already overpriced general admission ticket in what’s become an unaffordable part of the province for many doesn’t help imo. Don’t know what the solution is and don’t care that much. I state my opinion about the games I watch on TV and try to be objective. It’s a development league and I don’t pay if I don’t want to watch or go to games even if the officiating is marginally better. I have my doubts a league could figure out the officiating issues when they just created a website 25 years past its prime.

 

[Otto]

Do you know what an OHL official (linesman or referee) makes? I don't. Wondering what it would take. What's avg attendance (I know you've posted those numbers before). Say 3000/game league wide? Could league mandate $0.10 of each ticket goes to on ice official salaries? Would $100/ref and $50/liney each game (throwing out numbers) be sufficient to attract more talent. All this for discussion's sake.

I don't know when this was dated, or even if it's accurate.. but I'd venture its probably in the $30k-$40k range depending on experience.. and that probably includes expenses

How Much Does a Hockey Referee Make? - Fresh Gear

Find out how much hockey referees make and the average salary for referees in this popular sport.

www.freshgear.com

Average NHL referee is $165k-$360k


Given that OHL referees have other jobs I would imagine you'd have to pay them minimum $100k /year (plus expenses and benefits). Using your 3000 average at an additional 10 cents that only adds $204k to the pot. Not nearly enough to pay the officials as well as the continuous training they would require. We haven't even touched on the linesmen... probably another $75k each there (plus expenses and benefits) All said & done you're probably looking at $7 million total compensation using 25 refs and 25 linesmen. Approximately a $5 million bump adding about $2.50 per ticket

 

[TheOrangePylon]

I must say, after watching tonight’s game. This being the first game I have watched with the Flint broadcast since they aren’t on Rogers during regular season, I thought the commentator did a great job. Especially considering he was a one man show, very fair and knowledgeable.

 

[Otto]

Even if you make the officials full-time there's a couple of questions.

1. Are there enough quality referees to begin with? Just paying them more doesn't automatically make them better. That said it should attract better people.

2. By making them full-time are you denying them other careers? There's a shorter career span for referees than most other careers. What would they do after they're done officiating? Are we going to give them pensions like MPs and MPPs? If they can pursue other careers while officiating, does that really differ from what they're doing now?

Well.... you get what you pay for.

People expect to get a Keg Meal paying vending machine prices.

 

[rangersblues]

Well.... you get what you pay for.

People expect to get a Keg Meal paying vending machine prices.

In theory you should get what you pay for. But in reality, more money doesn't always mean better quality.

 

[TheOrangePylon]

Do you know what an OHL official (linesman or referee) makes? I don't. Wondering what it would take. What's avg attendance (I know you've posted those numbers before). Say 3000/game league wide? Could league mandate $0.10 of each ticket goes to on ice official salaries? Would $100/ref and $50/liney each game (throwing out numbers) be sufficient to attract more talent. All this for discussion's sake.

I don’t know this 100% and things could have changed, but being a former minor hockey league official who was one step away from an OHL card, I’d say they are already making somewhere around the $100 a game if not more. When I was reffing, several years ago now, your pay is based on age and level. So reffing AAA U14 U15 games, you’d be making around $60 per game. I was always told the OHL paid well to ref, just never went that far myself. But from my understanding at the time, it worked off a very similar system to how minor hockey associations like Alliance and OHF work officials.

But they most certainly do not make enough per game to live off, it’s just a lucrative side job.

 

[All the Answers]

I don't know when this was dated, or even if it's accurate.. but I'd venture its probably in the $30k-$40k range depending on experience.. and that probably includes expenses

How Much Does a Hockey Referee Make? - Fresh Gear

Find out how much hockey referees make and the average salary for referees in this popular sport.

www.freshgear.com

Average NHL referee is $165k-$360k


Given that OHL referees have other jobs I would imagine you'd have to pay them minimum $100k /year (plus expenses and benefits). Using your 3000 average at an additional 10 cents that only adds $204k to the pot. Not nearly enough to pay the officials as well as the continuous training they would require. We haven't even touched on the linesmen... probably another $75k each there (plus expenses and benefits) All said & done you're probably looking at $7 million total compensation using 25 refs and 25 linesmen. Approximately a $5 million bump adding about $2.50 per ticket

I guess the follow up is does it need to be that lucrative to be your sole source of income, or just more attractive to keep more people in the eligible pool with the dream of making it to the show.

Conversely, it may be attractive enough already at the OHL, but too unattractive rising the ranks to get there? I'm sure a lot of b.s. has younger people turned off prior to putting in the time needed.

Side note I have a friend who was near the top in Jr B scoring get invited and try his hand at officiating. Worked as a linesmen for a few preseason OHL games a few years back. Realised it wasn't for him. Have another friend who was essentially an enforcer in Jr B (he's got a Robertson cup ring) who referees minor hockey including midget level. He's got a lucrative outside career however and does it for the love of the game with zero interest to do it at a higher level and more time commitment.

I hear it's quite hard to get your foot in the door unless you've played reasonably high level hockey. I get that, but perhaps we need to cast a wider net.

 

[Fergus31]

I think Otto is right. I’d add that vending machine prices are pretty high these days so some folks just don’t pay it. Which is fair. I’d also add that does the poor officiating really matter if players are developing into pro players or university/college students with good career options? This is a development league for everyone including the officials. Similar to minor league baseball, I doubt anyone cares about wins and losses unlike a few hardcore fans as long as players and officials are developing during their time here.

 

[EvenSteven]

There are many on ice officials with lucrative professions as their primary source of income. Many are police. (Pat Smola and the Park brothers come to mind). Cops make large coin plus large pensions. Others are city or government workers who make good money with very good pension (Kevin Hastings).

Don’t expect them to give up those kind of professions.

Hell back in the day, former OHL ref Don Van Massonhoven, an OPP cop while he was an OHL ref, himmed and hawed before taking a six month leave of absence from the force to take an NHL referee job.

I doubt that would happen to “only” be an OHL ref.

 

[Fastpace]

I haven’t seen a game this year that Simpson has stole yet.

Perhaps you haven't seen London Knights play this year yet, Simpson's numbers says he's the best this league has this season. Just saying !!!

 

[tjziel]

Perhaps you haven't seen London Knights play this year yet, Simpson's numbers says he's the best this league has this season. Just saying !!!

LOL! I’ve watched every game this season either in person or through CHL TV. Do you know what the term “steal a game” means?? Jeeezz, im disappointed that you of all people look at stats and that’s it. A more in depth fan would look at the Knights defensive system, NHL calibre defense and forwards in front of him, and Simpson himself played a part of why his stats were so high….. you replace Simpson on the Spitfires and their run and gun style with all offense and no defense and his stats are gonna be worse.

Stealing a game means when a team underperforms so badly in a game that the team doesn’t deserve to win but the goalie is the “only” reason why they won the game.

Actually I do remember a game that a goalie stole the game…. It just wasn’t Simpson. Remember that game against Erie that stopped our streak?? Charlie Burns stole that game for Erie.

 

[Rubbers29]

LOL! I’ve watched every game this season either in person or through CHL TV. Do you know what the term “steal a game” means?? Jeeezz, im disappointed that you of all people look at stats and that’s it. A more in depth fan would look at the Knights defensive system, NHL calibre defense and forwards in front of him, and Simpson himself played a part of why his stats were so high….. you replace Simpson on the Spitfires and their run and gun style with all offense and no defense and his stats are gonna be worse.

Stealing a game means when a team underperforms so badly in a game that the team doesn’t deserve to win but the goalie is the “only” reason why they won the game.

Actually I do remember a game that a goalie stole the game…. It just wasn’t Simpson. Remember that game against Erie that stopped our streak?? Charlie Burns stole that game for Erie.

Actually it was Easton Rye that’s ended London’s streak the night before that with a 46/48 save performance. And it was a perfect example of stealing a game,Rye & the last place Petes came in to face the first place Knights on a massive winning streak, got outshot 48-25 and he stood on his head then blanked them in the shootout.

 

[LDN]

Getting that 4th win will be tough, but this team is learning a lot this series.

Getting that 4th win will be tough, but this team is learning a lot this series.

 

[rve24]

Flint played hard n battled. Felt the Knights weren't as physical as needed to be.
Simpson is fine, maybe a case of how high Houser, Parsons, Brochu set the bar recently causing some angst, I dunno.

I'd like to see the LK turn up the GAF meter for game 4 n get set for rd 2.

 

[Otto]

I think Otto is right. I’d add that vending machine prices are pretty high these days so some folks just don’t pay it. Which is fair. I’d also add that does the poor officiating really matter if players are developing into pro players or university/college students with good career options? This is a development league for everyone including the officials. Similar to minor league baseball, I doubt anyone cares about wins and losses unlike a few hardcore fans as long as players and officials are developing during their time here.

I'd say the officiating isn't as bad as people say it is. People complain but they have the benefit of replays, or they are sitting higher up in the stands with the ability to see much more. It's a much faster game at ice level and views get obstructed.

Personally I'd like to see games called the same way in game 1 of the pre season straight through to overtime in game 7 of the finals. Won't happen, but if it did there would be a large contingent of people saying "let them play" and "refs suck"

How many times has a fan base complained about a call while at the same time the other fan base says it was a good call. Happens a lot more than when people say "officiating was bad both ways"


Maybe the solution is to remove the referees from the ice and put them in the press box?

 

[tjziel]

Actually it was Easton Rye that’s ended London’s streak the night before that with a 46/48 save performance. And it was a perfect example of stealing a game,Rye & the last place Petes came in to face the first place Knights on a massive winning streak, got outshot 48-25 and he stood on his head then blanked them in the shootout.

Thanks Rubbers! I forg it it was actually Peterborough and then Erie the night after. Yes Easton Rye literally stole that game.

 

[TheOrangePylon]

LOL! I’ve watched every game this season either in person or through CHL TV. Do you know what the term “steal a game” means?? Jeeezz, im disappointed that you of all people look at stats and that’s it. A more in depth fan would look at the Knights defensive system, NHL calibre defense and forwards in front of him, and Simpson himself played a part of why his stats were so high….. you replace Simpson on the Spitfires and their run and gun style with all offense and no defense and his stats are gonna be worse.

Stealing a game means when a team underperforms so badly in a game that the team doesn’t deserve to win but the goalie is the “only” reason why they won the game.

Actually I do remember a game that a goalie stole the game…. It just wasn’t Simpson. Remember that game against Erie that stopped our streak?? Charlie Burns stole that game for Erie.

If you want to be technical, the hockey definition of a goalie stealing a game is when your team is out shot but wins. Which would technically mean Simpson stole game 1 of the playoffs, he did make some great saves and was definitely a factor why they won. This was a stat kept years ago in the NHL, just haven't seen it in recent memory.

Anyway, I do agree with you that you can't just look at stats. Simpson has been a really good goalie on a really good team, but to the eye test, not the technical stat, I don't recall many games this year when Simpson was the sole reason they won. Now, I also don't think he had the opportunity because the team in front of him is good.

 

[dmead]

Interesting couple of threads going on here. Simpson the pariah and Officiating.

I will say two things here :

1. Curb your expectations. Yes once in a while a goalie performs above and beyond. Its a game.

2. Most calls are subjective. Some are obvious. If you take the human factor out of the game just go buy NHL 2024 and you will lead a somewhat more sedate life.

THis is deja vu all over again.

 

[Ken Yates]

Maybe the Knights are playing down to their competition but that third period effort was poor. Every possession they iced the puck (8 times in 3rd). Flint strongest players are third line players on our team. Missing Gaz hurts but if this was a series vs Soo or Saginaw we would be down 3-0

 

[Fastpace]

Even if you make the officials full-time there's a couple of questions.

1. Are there enough quality referees to begin with? Just paying them more doesn't automatically make them better. That said it should attract better people.

2. By making them full-time are you denying them other careers? There's a shorter career span for referees than most other careers. What would they do after they're done officiating? Are we going to give them pensions like MPs and MPPs? If they can pursue other careers while officiating, does that really differ from what they're doing now?

I have to agree with you on the over valued of our MPs and MPPs, but to compare them to our league officials, I don't know about that

Our biggest mistake as fans is judging referees with our eyes at a much higher angle from the stands, not from their angles from ice level, they are closer to the action, yes, but they also have a much more narrowed view to ours. Like all league employees at the head office, they too should get a decent pay, it should be based on progression with experience, as per how many years and games refereed IMHO

 

[Fastpace]

I'd say the officiating isn't as bad as people say it is. People complain but they have the benefit of replays, or they are sitting higher up in the stands with the ability to see much more. It's a much faster game at ice level and views get obstructed.

Personally I'd like to see games called the same way in game 1 of the pre season straight through to overtime in game 7 of the finals. Won't happen, but if it did there would be a large contingent of people saying "let them play" and "refs suck"

How many times has a fan base complained about a call while at the same time the other fan base says it was a good call. Happens a lot more than when people say "officiating was bad both ways"


Maybe the solution is to remove the referees from the ice and put them in the press box?

Oh wow! I just wrote something about referees that somewhat resembles yours above here, and that was before I came up to your comment. You are dead on, Otto, with better wording that I can express it with.

 

[Fastpace]

Just some notes taken from this London/Flint series

Flint, a much younger team, has brought themselves to respectivety in this series. They are lacking the strong team structure that the Knights have, they are thriving on emotions, lots of it, this is also very dangerous. This emotions gives them motivations and extra efforts, making them shooting from every wich way they can, from what we have witnessed in this series with some great success , these irregular shots are finding their targets as well.

London, a much older and exprienced team, have the team structure (system) to go with them, a much fancier style of play and they seem to look for the more perfect shot on the net, their goals scorings are much more prettier to watch, but are also much more affictive as well, enough to give them the 3-0 lead in this series IMHO