OT: LOCAL COVID19 - PART I... Seriously, local only

[solidaritypucks]

I got my two shots and am going into places where everyone is 100% vaccinated with passports

if that’s not good enough… what is?

Have you ever considered becoming a pod person.

 

[aragorn]

Kids are unvaccinated and can’t enter
Not seeing how it’s my problem any more… I did my part and got the shots

It's all our problem still & our responsibility to each other, to be careful that we don't bring it home to others. Is that so difficult an ask? Even though we are double vaccinated we can still carry it & bring it home to others, we still need to be careful.

 

[aragorn]

For some people, clearly, yes.

Personally, I'm fine continuing to mask.

But that doesn't mean it should be mandated in settings where there are only double-vaccinated adults. The science shows that the risk of transmission, in those situations, is incredibly low, even without masks.

If the guidance is to follow the science, policy should follow the science. It shouldn't be based on our hunch of what's excessive and what isn't.

Now, everyone is free to wear a mask regardless if they want, but that's up to you.

Agreed in settings where everyone is double vaccinated & have shown proof, but even those who are double vaccinated can still be a carrier without knowing it until the symptoms show themselves. We aren't out of the woods yet & who knows how many other variants will show up before this is done.

 

[aragorn]

Israel today is making three doses the mandate
They also have time limit so six months after your second dose you become unvaccinated and need booster

where does it end?

Exactly, who knows if it will ever end & who knows how many other variants there could be. They are already talking about a booster or 3rd shot here. We all want it to end, but until it does IMO it's everyone's responsibility to take precautions to be safe for everyone's sake regardless if we are double vaccinated already. It's a pain in the ass no doubt.

 

[DaveMatthew]

Agreed in settings where everyone is double vaccinated & have shown proof, but even those who are double vaccinated can still be a carrier without knowing it until the symptoms show themselves. We aren't out of the woods yet & who knows how many other variants will show up before this is done.

That's my point. This will not be done for years, if ever. Vaccines are not 100% effective, vaccines + masking is not 100% effective, vaccines + masking + social distancing is not 100% effective. There will be new variants and there will always be people who are more at risk (immunocompromised and elderly).

The question is, what level of risk and spread is acceptable?

Based on the data we have, if you are a double-vaccinated adult in a room with only other double-vaccinated adults, the risk to you and others is miniscule. In a scenario where there are vaccine passports that guarantee a gathering has only double-vaccinated adults present, you shouldn't be overly concerned about wearing a mask. Essentially - if you choose to do so, that's fine. If you choose not to do so, that's also fine.

I realize that right now we don't have an effective vaccine passport system and we have a large portion of the population (children under 12) unvaccinated, so masks are necessary. But when/if we do implement a system, you can ease off mask mandates in certain settings. And when we vaccinate children under 12, we can ease off mask mandates in most settings.

This is a reasonable outlook for a path forward because unfortunately, we'll never be fully out of the woods.

We make these tradeoffs in society all the time. We could decrease auto fatalities if we lowered the highway speed limit from 100 km/hr to 40 km/hr - but we've deemed the risk of the current speed limit acceptable. (Some more people will die, but not a lot more people... and we'll get places faster, so okay).

 

[aragorn]

That's my point. This will not be done for years, if ever. Vaccines are not 100% effective, vaccines + masking is not 100% effective, vaccines + masking + social distancing is not 100% effective. There will be new variants and there will always be people who are more at risk (immunocompromised and elderly).

The question is, what level of risk and spread is acceptable?

Based on the data we have, if you are a double-vaccinated adult in a room with only other double-vaccinated adults, the risk to you and others is miniscule. In a scenario where there are vaccine passports that guarantee a gathering has only double-vaccinated adults present, you shouldn't be overly concerned about wearing a mask. Essentially - if you choose to do so, that's fine. If you choose not to do so, that's also fine.

I realize that right now we don't have an effective vaccine passport system and we have a large portion of the population (children under 12) unvaccinated, so masks are necessary. But when/if we do implement a system, you can ease off mask mandates in certain settings. And when we vaccinate children under 12, we can ease off mask mandates in most settings.

This is a reasonable outlook for a path forward because unfortunately, we'll never be fully out of the woods.

We make these tradeoffs in society all the time. We could decrease auto fatalities if we lowered the highway speed limit from 100 km/hr to 40 km/hr - but we've deemed the risk of the current speed limit acceptable. (Some more people will die, but not a lot more people... and we'll get places faster, so okay).

Again I agree with this, but we all know people who are not vaccinated & don't want to get vaccinated for whatever reason. We are also already seeing more talk of vaccine passports & employers wanting their employees to be double vaccinated & some people pushing for mandatory vaccinations. It's turning into the rights of the vaccinated against the rights of the unvaccinated & my guess is that it likely falls into what is best for society at large & that includes other precautions like wearing masks & social distancing.

Whether they will be able to force people or not will likely turn into a court battle, but the unvaccinated are slowly becoming ostracized in our society for the greater safety of all whether again this is right or not is being discussed. As well a booster shot is also under discussion on whether that will be necessary or not & completely agree this could be with us for yrs & IMO it could turn out that people will need an annual shot like the flu shot every yr. My biggest concern is for my children & those under 12 yrs old that could not be vaccinated & unknowingly bringing something home that makes them severely sick. I want to avoid that at all costs.

 

[DaveMatthew]

Again I agree with this, but we all know people who are not vaccinated & don't want to get vaccinated for whatever reason. We are also already seeing more talk of vaccine passports & employers wanting their employees to be double vaccinated & some people pushing for mandatory vaccinations. It's turning into the rights of the vaccinated against the rights of the unvaccinated & my guess is that it likely falls into what is best for society at large & that includes other precautions like wearing masks & social distancing.

From my perspective, this would make sense:

Vaccine passports for non-essential retail/entertainment: No mask mandates. If I'm at a restaurant where every guest is vaccinated and every staff member is vaccinated, should I need to put on a mask to walk to the bathroom? Probably not.

No vaccine passports for essential retail (grocery, pharmacy): Mask mandates.

Once we hit the 85-90% vaccination rate (12 and under included): No mask mandates anywhere.

 

[Flamingo]

From my perspective, this would make sense:

Vaccine passports for non-essential retail/entertainment: No mask mandates. If I'm at a restaurant where every guest is vaccinated and every staff member is vaccinated, should I need to put on a mask to walk to the bathroom? Probably not.

No vaccine passports for essential retail (grocery, pharmacy): Mask mandates.

Once we hit the 85-90% vaccination rate (12 and under included): No mask mandates anywhere.

You're trying to steer this from the wrong end. I'd hope that 85%-90% will get us to life-as-we-knew-it. But we have to set policy based on R-value and hospital bed and ICU occupancy.

 

[L'Aveuglette]

It's not about individuals, it's about unknowingly bringing home the virus to family & friends & especially children under 12 who have not been vaccinated. Some may not care about themselves or only have to think of themselves, but think of the people you interact with & who might be in their circles that may be vulnerable. Try & consider your friends grandparents & young children & those around them that are vulnerable, those who may already have enough challenges in their lives.

Think about whether you want to be the guy responsible for them getting sick & potentially dying because of your carelessness or stubbornness. It's not about you or me, it's about all of us looking out for each other to keep us all safe including our children. Just do the right thing & be safe rather than sorry, it's not that big a deal, it's just more of a nuisance than anything else.

 

[L'Aveuglette]

You're right, the death of one child would absolutely devastate a family. But the goal of public health policy isn't, has never been, and cannot be to prevent every death. That's completely unrealistic. The goal is to get risk levels down to an acceptable level.

We need to get comfortable with the fact that people will continue to die from COVID for years to come. Individually, each of those deaths will be tragic. At a macro-level, there's a certain amount of death that's acceptable.

Now, we can debate what the acceptable level of risk and death is. But the viewpoint of, "we must do this because even one death is too many" is not a starting point.

In a setting where COVID passports are required (a gym or bar, for example), kids would seemingly not be allowed to enter, as they're not vaccinated. Now is there a chance that a vaccinated adult with COVID will infect another vaccinated adult with COVID, who will then take it home and infect a child and cause hospitalization and/or death?

There's a chance. But it's infinitesimal, even without masking.

The chances of contracting and propagating covid as a fully vaccinated adult are not infinitesimal. Seems like you haven't been paying attention at all. Breakthrough cases are growing and variants are becoming the norm, rendering vaccines less effective(in some cases at 50%). If we stop wearing masks and being extra careful, we'll repeat the same cycle forever.

Now if your point is that we should just learn to live with the virus regardless of its impact(not saying it is), that's a debate I wouldn't even engage in.

 

[aragorn]

Some hospitals in some areas are still over capacity & I imagine the poor health care workers must be more than over fatigued, frustrated & exhausted. If nothing else we need to help them get back to some kind of normalcy where they are not on constant peak mode & wanting to quit their jobs, we need them.

 

[Xspyrit]

It's not about individuals, it's about unknowingly bringing home the virus to family & friends & especially children under 12 who have not been vaccinated. Some may not care about themselves or only have to think of themselves, but think of the people you interact with & who might be in their circles that may be vulnerable. Try & consider your friends grandparents & young children & those around them that are vulnerable, those who may already have enough challenges in their lives.

Think about whether you want to be the guy responsible for them getting sick & potentially dying because of your carelessness or stubbornness. It's not about you or me, it's about all of us looking out for each other to keep us all safe including our children. Just do the right thing & be safe rather than sorry, it's not that big a deal, it's just more of a nuisance than anything else.

Even if you don't care about other people's health... How do they think we can stop a virus spread exactly? It takes 100% of vaccinated people and then more efforts after that. It's the only way we can go back to "normal", stop the spread for good. Don't give the virus a chance to get stronger and/or mutate

Life has gotten way too easy. We're in the era of lazy minds, people who actually have no idea how to use their brain

I heard a father on the radio earlier today, he was outraged because there was anti-vaxxers/maskers at his primary school this morning. They were using megaphones to manifest, but it actually created panic and disruption among the young children.

That is so f***ing wrong. Luckily they didn't pick up my children's school...

Some hospitals in some areas are still over capacity & I imagine the poor health care workers must be more than over fatigued, frustrated & exhausted. If nothing else we need to help them get back to some kind of normalcy where they are not on constant peak mode & wanting to quit their jobs, we need them.

Heard and read that a lot of workers are actually really tired to deal with unvaccinated people... I think at some point, these will run out their welcome, if it's not already the case. They shouldn't even receive extensive care in hospitals for covid related problems. It's a choice they have made. Live with the consequences of your choices. That's pretty much what life is about lol

 

[DaveMatthew]

Some hospitals in some areas are still over capacity & I imagine the poor health care workers must be more than over fatigued, frustrated & exhausted. If nothing else we need to help them get back to some kind of normalcy where they are not on constant peak mode & wanting to quit their jobs, we need them.

The answer to this is not indefinite mask mandates and capacity limits for the fully-vaccinated.

The answer is better pay and SIGNIFICANTLY more resources and capacity.

It's unfortunate that the there's this narrative out there that front-line healthcare workers are overworked because of COVID. "Normalcy" was always this.

Overcrowded Ontario hospitals ‘on the brink,’ province warned (from 2017)

 

[DaveMatthew]

The chances of contracting and propagating covid as a fully vaccinated adult are not infinitesimal. Seems like you haven't been paying attention at all. Breakthrough cases are growing and variants are becoming the norm, rendering vaccines less effective(in some cases at 50%). If we stop wearing masks and being extra careful, we'll repeat the same cycle forever.

Now if your point is that we should just learn to live with the virus regardless of its impact(not saying it is), that's a debate I wouldn't even engage in.

The current data (in the US) is that less than 0.08% of fully-vaccinated people have had a breakthrough infection. That is incredibly low. And considering the INCREDIBLE EFFECTIVENESS vaccines have in terms of reducing serious symptoms (those that cause hospitalization), the chances of someone who's fully vaccinated landing in the ICU and being a burden on the healthcare system are infinitesimal.

We have a significantly higher level of risk tolerance in almost every aspect of our life.

The fact of the matter is, we are going to have to learn to live with the virus. I'm not saying we're there yet, but we're getting closer every day, as more people get double-dosed and the vaccines are nearing approval for children.

COVID zero is an impossibility.

People need to keep getting vaccinated. We need to keep pumping resources into getting vaccines approved for children, and then get them vaccinated. After that? Yes, we'll have to learn to live with a very low level of spread and risk.

 

[DaveMatthew]

Even if you don't care about other people's health... How do they think we can stop a virus spread exactly? It takes 100% of vaccinated people and then more efforts after that. It's the only way we can go back to "normal", stop the spread for good. Don't give the virus a chance to get stronger and/or mutate

Life has gotten way too easy. We're in the era of lazy minds, people who actually have no idea how to use their brain

I heard a father on the radio earlier today, he was outraged because there was anti-vaxxers/maskers at his primary school this morning. They were using megaphones to actually create panic and disruption among the young children.

That is so f***ing wrong. Luckily they didn't pick up my children's school...

Heard and read that a lot of workers are actually really tired to deal with unvaccinated people... I think at some point, these will run out their welcome, if it's not already the case. They shouldn't even receive extensive care in hospitals for covid related problems. It's a choice they have made. Live with the consequences of your choices. That's pretty much what life is about lol

1. We will not eradicate COVID in our lifetime. There will always be spread and risk, we just need to get it low enough (and we're getting there) where it's acceptable.

2. We live in a society where we provide care to everyone, regardless of their choices. Is not getting vaccinated stupid? Yes. Will it burden our healthcare system? Yes. But guess what? So will binge drinking, smoking, and eating bacon for breakfast multiple times a week. Millions do that, and when they wind up with heart disease, we take care of them.

 

[Xspyrit]

1. We will not eradicate COVID in our lifetime. There will always be spread and risk, we just need to get it low enough (and we're getting there) where it's acceptable.

2. We live in a society where we provide care to everyone, regardless of their choices. Is not get vaccinated stupid? Yes. Will it burden our healthcare system? Yes. But guess what? So will binge drinking, smoking, and eating bacon for breakfast multiple times a week. Millions do that, and when they wind up with heart disease, we take care of them.

1. We don't know about the future. They are working on a "remedy" as we speak. Any virus can be controlled and eventually eradicated. If we all had a personal bubble (like in Bubble's boy movie), virus would be dead already. It survives by simply spreading.

2. There's a massive difference : transmission. Smoking/drugs/alcohol/Bacon isn't infectuous. You can try to influence people into making poor life choices, but you can't simply transmit to them by breathing on them. That's a point that goes over people's head so easily

 

[DaveMatthew]

1. We don't know about the future. They are working on a "remedy" as we speak. Any virus can be controlled and eventually eradicated. If we all had a personal bubble (like in Bubble's boy movie), virus would be dead already. It survives by simply spreading.

2. There's a massive difference : transmission. Smoking/drugs/alcohol/Bacon isn't infectuous. You can try to influence people into making poor life choices, but you can't simply transmit to them by breathing on them. That's a point that goes over people's head so easily

1. We don't live in a bubble. We live in a globalized world with millions of people and goods crossing borders every hour. COVID will continue to spread and mutate for years and years and years to come. In the history of humankind, we've only completely eradicated one infectious disease in humans: smallpox.

2. Sure, but again, personal choices don't, and should never, affect a person's ability to get care. We know that drunk driving is incredibly stupid and dangerous, and we do our very best to prevent people from doing it (education, steep fines, jail time, etc). But we don't mandate that everyone pass an in-car breathalyzer before their car starts, do we? And if you drive drunk and hit a telephone pole, you'll still be taken to the emergency room.

 

[DrEasy]

The question is, what level of risk and spread is acceptable?

The level that allows our hospitals to cope. Right now, given the state of COVID, and given the state of healthcare in this country (which was bad to begin with), clearly we're not there yet.

 

[DaveMatthew]

The level that allows our hospitals to cope. Right now, given the state of COVID, and given the state of healthcare in this country (which was bad to begin with), clearly we're not there yet.

In Ottawa, we currently have 10 people in the hospital and just 1 in the ICU with COVID. We can cope.

We're at 70% fully-vaccinated, 75% with one dose. Numbers are increasing every day.

I understand that other regions are in worse shape, and I'm not suggesting we drop all restrictions in an hour, but we can start making next steps:

• The province should begin allowing regional health agencies to make their own decisions on restrictions (we're passed a crisis point where a one-size-fits-all approach was needed)
• If we implement vaccine passports, we should start easing mask mandates in certain spaces
• We should start increasing capacity at indoor gatherings and events (i.e. concerts and Sens games)

The next massive milestone will be kids vaccinations, but after that, we can and should start getting back to normal. It doesn't have to be doom and gloom all the time. Vaccines are miraculous.

 

[Xspyrit]

Ottawa seems to do an excellent job compared to other cities. Maybe more UFAs will sign with the Sens in the future?

1. We don't live in a bubble. We live in a globalized world with millions of people and goods crossing borders every hour. COVID will continue to spread and mutate for years and years and years to come. In the history of humankind, we've only completely eradicated one infectious disease in humans: smallpox.

2. Sure, but again, personal choices don't, and should never, affect a person's ability to get care. We know that drunk driving is incredibly stupid and dangerous, and we do our very best to prevent people from doing it (education, steep fines, jail time, etc). But we don't mandate that everyone pass an in-car breathalyzer before their car starts, do we? And if you drive drunk and hit a telephone pole, you'll still be taken to the emergency room.

1. You understand that I used the bubble example to demonstrate that it's technically possible to eradicate a virus? Of course, it's very hard to fully eradicate viruses, but through the years we have controlled (and sometimes eradicated) multiple other viruses, and more dangerous than covid (look at the 3rd link for animal source outbreaks)

14 Diseases You Almost Forgot About (Thanks to Vaccines)
The deadly viruses that vanished without trace
World’s worst epidemic

2. Don't disagree with this, au contraire. Actually, there's a lot of cars that have the AIID. It's ok if the guy that hit the phone pole is taken to the hospital, he didn't put anyone else at risk, although there's a fine line because he could have had. That is why impaired driving is CRIMINAL. I really hope every doctor in the world prioritize people who were vaccinated for the ICU.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

check the thread

 

[Sens]

My unvaccinated coworkers don’t need to be vaccinated lol
Amazing

 

[Sens]

Stop socializing!!!

 

[YouGotAStuGoing]

Stop socializing!!!

I'm sure this was intended as sarcastic, but it's the best post you've made in a while.

 

[Sens]

I'm sure this was intended as sarcastic, but it's the best post you've made in a while.

lol
Ridiculous for the double dosed