Rumor: Lindholm Mega Thread: All Rumors/Proposals Go Here

[Whileee]

is there a source that suggests he would even sign a cheap bridge deal?

His agent has simply said that his desire to leave Winnipeg isn't about the team, the city or the money. He wants to go to a franchise where he can fulfill his potential. He also said that he would work with Chevy and other teams to facilitate a suitable trade. That might require him to consider a bridge deal. It wouldn't be the first time an Overhardt client has taken a bridge deal to get where he wants (e.g. Turris).

 

[LondonKendrick]

Not really understanding what an analogy is are you? Wasn't saying Lindholm is Crosby, I was saying you basically believe unproven talent is more valuable than a player who has actually proven himself to be elite or borderline elite.

You're trying to say players who haven't even been drafted yet are more valuable and are more elite than a 22 year old, proven, borderline elite player.

Ah no, I don't say silly things like all prospects are x and all proven players are y... Judge each case in it's proper context. So this draft is believed to be 2 deep with franchise potential, those picks hold more value than Lindholm, I'm sure we'll see plenty of proposals for all three talents on these board for months, we can have fun and compare their perceive value.

Yeah, yeah, every gets the analogy but when comparing Lindholm's value to Patrick's and we keep Patrick's name the same in the analogy and replace Lindholm with Crosby, it's a dumb point. Why obscure the issue? To decontextualize the disagreement right, no need to mention Crosby, your point isn't that complicated, it's just properly made but pretend it's beyond my comprehension

Of course they don't. Lindholm wouldn't be available for them.

Your entire argument in this thread seems to be an awful lot of trying to pat yourself on the back, while you repeatedly put your foot in your mouth. I suppose that's one way to have a discussion, but saying it strengthens your argument suggests your argument had merit to begin with.

GM's don't move talents like Lindholm for question marks. There's a reason guys like Larsson and Seth Jones went for players like Hall and Johansen, and not prospects. It isn't because those prospects wouldn't be available. It's because it's the height of stupidity to move an established young talent for a complete unknown. High end D talents like that are among the most valuable commodities in the NHL. You don't squander that value by rolling the dice on a draft pick.

Edit: Lindholm isn't some top 4 quality D prospect. He's a top pairing defenseman, at the age of 22, who has #1 D potential. The bottom line is that the difference in potential, at this point in time, is still overshadowed by the difference in actual play. I'd even be willing to concede that Lindholm has less potential than Nolan Patrick. Just for the sake of argument. But he's a much safer bet, at this point, to hit his potential, and Nolan Patrick's upside isn't so great that a GM would ignore this.

Your arguments are cute and so terribly wrong.[/QUOTE]

Patting myself on the back isn't the argument, again it's just how you duck it, play the man not the puck right....

Lindy plays on good team so his defensive/team stats get propped up while Morgan play on the baddest team so his defensive/team stats suffa

Need I dumb that down more for you to address it or must you subject me to another passive aggressive lecture. May we talk hockey instead?

Hall wasn't traded when he was projected 1OA, neither was Jones, Johansen... 1OA and 20A franchise project talents are pretty much untouchable commodities, Lindholm hasn't achieved that level of value. Of course this point is being made in a vacuum given we don't know who has the chance to draft these player.

You're being obtuse to ignore that their franchise player upside makes their value eclipse a good top pairing blueliner.

Potential franchise C or franchise D > top pairing blueliner. Prospects like Liljegren come along once every 2-3 year if that. They're are 1 or two is not more Lindholms in every draft.

What are you even saying? Lol

The first two picks aren't on McDavids level, which is being close to elite without having played in the NHL. You keep suggesting that the first two picks this year are closer to being elite than a 22 year, borderline elite defenseman.

FYI, capitalizing the word "REALITY" doesn't actually assign said property to your assertions. It's probably unlikely, but there have been plenty of scenarios before where really top picks have been moved for immediate benefits.

Ahh, did the capital letters trigger you, another nit picking borish post that contributed less than nothing.

2nd OA from lottery draft day to 1st game of next season > value then Lindholm. That's fairly obvious, his value from their either falls or further reaches pass Lindholm's

 

[JetsHomer]

I'm curious how Lindholm hasn't reached 1st or 2nd overall level of value when 4 years of development later he's the best player from the 2012 draft

 

[Iceman]

I'm curious how Lindholm hasn't reached 1st or 2nd overall level of value when 4 years of development later he's the best player from the 2012 draft

1st overall picks have McDavid value apparantely until it has been used to pick a player. The player will always achieve 1st OA success guaranteed. Just look at Yakupov. Great great career so far.

 

[Not So Mighty]

Is Lindholm really that much better than Fowler or Vatanen? I always figured him to be the #2 or 3 D-man on the Ducks.

You'd think he is the next incarnation of Orr the way he's talked about in his thread.

It's like you're not allowed to say good things about your players without HF crucifying you. God forbid you actually recognize talent of a player in your team's sweater. You better be prepared to feel the wrath of guys like this mocking you with comparisons to Orr and Gretzky.

 

[LondonKendrick]

I'm curious how Lindholm hasn't reached 1st or 2nd overall level of value when 4 years of development later he's the best player from the 2012 draft

Because it's relative to the talent in the draft, Lindholm is arguably the best of a shallow draft class.

 

[JetsHomer]

Because it's relative to the talent in the draft, Lindholm is arguably the best of a shallow draft class.

Are you under the impression that 2016 looks to be a strong draft, or that the top end looks particularly good?

2012 draft > 2016 draft

EDIT: I meant 2017 draft, not 2016

 

[xxreact9]

Because it's relative to the talent in the draft, Lindholm is arguably the best of a shallow draft class.

There's no arguing it really. Forsberg is a ways off so far.

 

[LondonKendrick]

Are you under the impression that 2016 looks to be a strong draft, or that the top end looks particularly good?

2012 draft > 2016 draft

The top two 2016 > entire 2012

I'm at fault here too, why must we constantly flesh out the obvious?

 

[JetsHomer]

The top two 2016 > entire 2012

I'm at fault here too, why must we constantly flesh out the obvious?

What makes you think this? Neither Patrick or Liljegren have had great starts to the year, and neither is seen as a particularly special prospect or anything.

Would you say that a player like Puljujarvi or Dubois would have more value than Lindholm? Cause both those guys are similar quality prospects as Patrick and Liljegren, and I would take Lindholm over them with zero hesitation.

 

[Sojourn]

I find the argument that Patrick or Liljegren are franchise talents, while Lindholm only qualifies as a "good top pairing defenseman" to be about as telling as it gets. And transparent. You're trying so hard to dismiss Lindholm as a player, and praise the players who have zero games of NHL experience. I imagine you feel you must, since that's about the only way your argument would carry any kind of weight. You need to rely on exaggeration, or it just sounds silly.

I mean, obviously, Lindholm has to have peaked already in your world. Otherwise, what you're saying is that a 22 year old top pairing defenseman could improve, and if a top pairing defenseman improves, you start looking at a #1 defenseman. And then maybe a top end #1 defenseman. Some might say that's a potential franchise player. And since that's your argument for Patrick and Liljegren over Lindholm, well, you just can't have that, can you? So clearly, the only alternative for you to save face is to suggest that Lindholm, at 22 years of age, has peaked as a top pairing defenseman.

 

[bossram]

I'm curious how Lindholm hasn't reached 1st or 2nd overall level of value when 4 years of development later he's the best player from the 2012 draft

As a Canuck fan (and one who thinks they'll be hitting the tank cycle very soon) I would immediately fork over our 1st round pick for Lindholm. Even if it's a lottery pick. No questions asked. I'd throw in Virtanen too. That's an incredibly easy move.

Even if it were the #1 and Nolan Patrick, I'd still lean Lindholm.

Lindholm is easily a top-30 defenseman right now. That's a 1D. He's 22. What else needs to be said.

 

[2020 Cup Champions]

How is relative draft strength four years ago an argument against a #1D?

 

[LondonKendrick]

What makes you think this? Neither Patrick or Liljegren have had great starts to the year, and neither is seen as a particularly special prospect or anything.

Would you say that a player like Puljujarvi or Dubois would have more value than Lindholm? Cause both those guys are similar quality prospects as Patrick and Liljegren, and I would take Lindholm over them with zero hesitation.

Again we flesh out the obvi.... Puljujarvi and Dubios are wingers (I get that Dubios can be argued a center and that was motivation for CBJ to draft him but his transition to C hasn't been flawless), and position matters so a big part of what makes Liljegren and Patrick special is their position... but we all already knew this... so why are you calling me out on what we already know.

So Lindholm > that Puljujarvi and Dubios... why, why can we never talk about the players in context, why must we keep adding names to decontextualize what is being said... it's suuuuuuuuuch a cop out. Why does everyone insist on forcing a stalemate?

And before you say it, I'll grant Laine an exception because he's so talented that he's the exception to the rule...

I find the argument that Patrick or Liljegren are franchise talents, while Lindholm only qualifies as a "good top pairing defenseman" to be about as telling as it gets. And transparent. You're trying so hard to dismiss Lindholm as a player, and praise the players who have zero games of NHL experience. I imagine you feel you must, since that's about the only way your argument would carry any kind of weight. You need to rely on exaggeration, or it just sounds silly.

I mean, obviously, Lindholm has to have peaked already in your world. Otherwise, what you're saying is that a 22 year old top pairing defenseman could improve, and if a top pairing defenseman improves, you start looking at a #1 defenseman. And then maybe a top end #1 defenseman. Some might say that's a potential franchise player. And since that's your argument for Patrick and Liljegren over Lindholm, well, you just can't have that, can you? So clearly, the only alternative for you to save face is to suggest that Lindholm, at 22 years of age, has peaked as a top pairing defenseman.

I'm trying to dismiss Lindholm as a player by saying he's a tier behind elite and he may very well take that next step (peaked?) then again he may not? Ok......... what a harsh criticism, I'm totally devaluing him....

You sure you're not a bit thin skinned about criticizing Lindholm, who is your favorite team by the way?

To suggest Lindholm is in the same tier as bottom feeding scum like a Rielly or even a Ristolainen... I must really despise Hampus and this is totally personal...

As it stand Patrick and Liljegren have higher ceilings, are younger, will be cap friendly longer and Lindholm is more proven. Believe or not top end prospects, especially those at C and D hold tremenous value, some franchises make even tank just for a shot at them.

Save face? Again this seems really personal to you, may we talk hockey?

Ok, btw, Hampus has better defensive numbers/advanced stats than Reilly because he's played on a much better team his whole career, I don't if you caught that cause you haven't addressed that

 

[JetsHomer]

Lindholm > Puljujarvi > Patrick = Dubois > Liljegren in terms of value for me.

Judge a player by what they've actually accomplished in the game of hockey. Just because a player is drafted high does not mean that player automatically has franchise level value.


Why are you saying Lindholm is only better that Rielly because of his team when his stats relative to his teammates are still far superior to Rielly's?

 

[Evil Little]

is there a source that suggests he would even sign a cheap bridge deal?

Basically the only thing Trouba has said publicly since the trade request became public is that what he's looking for is, "a place where I have the ability to reach my potential."

It stands to reason that--if he feels his potential hasn't been unlocked and/or his value has been diminished by the Jets' defensive depth--he would actually prefer a bridge deal to signing away his prime years with his potential all unfulfilled like a puppy who has no pictures on instagram.

 

[LondonKendrick]

Lindholm > Puljujarvi > Patrick = Dubois > Liljegren in terms of value for me.

Judge a player by what they've actually accomplished in the game of hockey. Just because a player is drafted high does not mean that player automatically has franchise level value.


Why are you saying Lindholm is only better that Rielly because of his team when his stats relative to his teammates are still far superior to Rielly's?

I really disagree with that evaluation but yeah, it's your opinion cool, we can argue that in another thread if needed.

I simply judge Liljegren and Patrick from the scouting reports I've read over the last three years (not like I was invested in what the Leafs were doing so prospect watching). They haven't blown me away from the eye test from Memorial Cup or U-18s but they look fine. I'm looking at the overall context and forming my opinion.

Point out the stats you take issue with and I'll happily address them.

 

[JetsHomer]

I really disagree with that evaluation but yeah, it's your opinion cool, we can argue that in another thread if needed.

I simply judge Liljegren and Patrick from the scouting reports I've read over the last three years (not like I was invested in what the Leafs were doing so prospect watching). They haven't blown me away from the eye test from Memorial Cup or U-18s but they look fine. I'm looking at the overall context and forming my opinion.

Point out the stats you take issue with and I'll happily address them.

What do you mean point out the stats I take issue with? Lindholm blows Rielly out of the water in every advanced stats, whether you look at them overall or relative to teammates. Lindholm did this on a team that had 52.5 CF% vs Rielly on a team that had a CF% of 51.3

Lindholm:
CF/60: 60.21
CA/60: 43.98
CF%: 57.8
CF%Rel: 7.8%

Rielly: CF/60: 59.06
CA/60: 59.56
CF%: 49.8
CF%Rel: -1.8%



I find it interesting that you would value players that are 'fine' at the junior level over a top 20 Dman that is only 22 years old, all because of draft position and some scouting reports you read.

 

[PaulGG]

Ducks must need to move a few players for little return to get some cap room. My Bolts did it in 2014 in three team deal by moving Purcell and Crombeen and retaining 1.6M for a sixth round pick and about 4M cap space.
Unless the Duck are moving Lindholm they are not really not dealing from a position of strength when every other team knows they are in a bind and desperate to sign Lindholm.

 

[Spazkat]

I find it interesting that you would value players that are 'fine' at the junior level over a top 20 Dman that is only 22 years old, all because of draft position and some scouting reports you read.

Because this is HF and here we're all about the mystery boxes. Once you're discussing an actual player there are stats and things that can be proven, but the mystery box is whatever you want it to be. You can assign it all sorts of mystical properties, and because the box hasn't been opened yet no one can prove you wrong.

 

[Flair Hay]

The only people that would cut down Lindholm' s value are the ones that want to acquire him for cheaper lol

 

[Arthuros]

The only people that would cut down Lindholm' s value are the ones that want to acquire him for cheaper lol

An uncanny truth.

 

[A Loyal Demidog]

How about Beaulieu + Plekanec (2.5m retained) + 1st round pick MTL (& maybe add a high-prospect like Juulsen/Scherbak) for Lindholm?

 

[Paradise*]

I'd easily take Lindholm over any player in this year's Draft , except with L.V (take the young ELC center Patrick).

 

[Paradise*]

How about Beaulieu + Plekanec (2.5m retained) + 1st round pick MTL (& maybe add a high-prospect like Juulsen/Scherbak) for Lindholm?

Too many pieces and none are high end.