Lidstrom vs. Harvey for #2 Dman of all time?

[5lidyzer19]

Creativity and risk taking are not being trained out of players these days. The players in today's NHL are more creative than they've ever been. Now not only is hockey sense not able to be taught, but it's been trained out of everyone. Everyone in the NHL today is a robot, Iafrate like with tons of tools but no toolbox.

The same NHL that features players such as Sidney Crosby, Joe Thornton, Evgeni Malkin, the Sedin's, Nicklas Backstrom, Pavel Datsyuk, Mikko Koivu, Claude Giroux, Patrick Kane, John Tavares, Matt Duchene, Jeff Skinner, Jason Spezza, Ryan Getzlaf, Ales Hemsky, David Krejci, Patrice Bergeron, Henrik Zetterberg, etc. etc. and the list actually goes on and on and on.

Now imagine what the NHL would be like if the creativity wasn't trained out of all these players, how amazing would that be?

It should be easy to see that systems have made the teams harder to play against. Working as one unit will almost always result in a higher level, be it hockey or justa bout anything. Systems make mistakes less likely and punish the other teams mistakes more. It's "trained out of them" as you put it, because it's the superior way of play. One person running around weakens the strength of the unit.

Sure, chaos may be more entertaining to a fan, but it's not exactly the best strategy.

 

[lazerbullet]

NHL is so much faster that you have to make quick and simple plays most of the time. You don't have time to develop creative plans. In those cases when players have that extra second they make the creative play.

 

[Zine]

Players aren't less creative, there's just less time and space to showcase that creativity.

Systems + bigger and faster players + shorter shift length = less opportunity to showcase creativity.

 

[Pear Juice]

Please explain what made the game tougher in the 1970s.
More fighting? Yes
Dirtier? Ok
But it was a different type of toughness considering players were smaller, the game was slower and there was more time and space to move.
Contrast that with today's game which resembles human pinball with 220+ players; not to mention players don't have as much respect for each other as they used to.
Considering Lidstrom can contain 220+ lb. forwards in front of the net, he'd have no problem with players from the 1970's.

Anyhow, Lidstrom has only missed 19 games in 19 years. Any defenseman with that type of durability is tough as nails, regardless of style of game played.

He's quoted in Swedish daily papers this summer stating that his endurance is a combination of "genes, summer training and meatballs." I don't know, but I have this gut feeling that Lidström is more serious than most with his summer training and just generally keeping his body in good condition.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Players aren't less creative, there's just less time and space to showcase that creativity.

Systems + bigger and faster players + shorter shift length = less opportunity to showcase creativity.

This is true, but honestly I think the majority of current players actually are less creative. It's the difference between learning the game on a pond where you can lose the puck in a snowbank, versus learning it on a rink with coaches enforcing a "system" mentality. On the pond, you pick up the puck in your end and try to deke and spin through the other team; at practice, you clear it off the glass. Offensively the pond forces you to hit the net with every shot and make clean passes; the rink encourages you to shoot into traffic and cycle in the corners.

I remember Bobby Orr talking about how his style of game was based around his experiences as a young player, and how different they were from the younger generation which came after him.

 

[danincanada]

He's quoted in Swedish daily papers this summer stating that his endurance is a combination of "genes, summer training and meatballs." I don't know, but I have this gut feeling that Lidström is more serious than most with his summer training and just generally keeping his body in good condition.

I think you're right. When Lidstrom decided he would play another season he essentially stated that he had to decide if he was prepared to put his body through another summer of training. He got to see Chelios riding the stationary bike in the sauna so he's probably got his own insane program he does every summer. You can't tell when he's got a shirt on but the guy is absolutely ripped.

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

This is true, but honestly I think the majority of current players actually are less creative. It's the difference between learning the game on a pond where you can lose the puck in a snowbank, versus learning it on a rink with coaches enforcing a "system" mentality. On the pond, you pick up the puck in your end and try to deke and spin through the other team; at practice, you clear it off the glass. Offensively the pond forces you to hit the net with every shot and make clean passes; the rink encourages you to shoot into traffic and cycle in the corners.

I remember Bobby Orr talking about how his style of game was based around his experiences as a young player, and how different they were from the younger generation which came after him.

I'm a big fan of the perspective in this post.

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

But keeping the puck out of your net is not just about how good one d-man is one on one.

Last I checked, no team employs full man on man def zone coverage anymore and haven't for quite a while now.

Maybe Lidstrom is a little better than Bourque one on one but I'd take Bourque over Lidstrom in front of the net, no question.

I don't buy the argument that Lidstrom was noticeably better positionally either. Better, maybe but not by some of the gaps I have read around here.
Yes, Bourque got caught more than Lidstrom over the years but at the same time, Lidstrom wasn't required to be the main drive behind his team's offense either. Bourque didn't have any where close to the same conservative option that Lidstrom had, so cutting Ray some slack on this is more than warranted.

I also wonder if Lidstrom's non-physicality would be as effective in a man on man scheme. What I do know though, is I did see Bourque being effective under either scheme.
Lidstrom's game is definitely more suited for today's zone systems. Man on man usually has a much more physical aspect to it.

Hey, some like to say Orr's time was a perfect storm situation. Maybe Lidstrom and today's systems and play style are also a perfect storm situation.

Pretty interesting spin eh

This got me to wondering, has anyone ever played behind more Selke winning (or "best defensive") forwards, and for more seasons? It would probably have to be someone from the Habs during Gainey's day (since Carbonneau had his time not long after that). I can think of 4 Red Wing Selke winners during Lidstrom's time there, and that's obviously not factoring in Zetterberg, who has yet to win one. Funny thing is, not one of them is even remotely a "punishing" defensive forward; they just seem to have a way of doing things over there that severely restricts opposing lines' time and space, which perhaps limits the scope of situations that the defense behind them is going to have to deal with.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Canadiens

This got me to wondering, has anyone ever played behind more Selke winning (or "best defensive") forwards, and for more seasons? It would probably have to be someone from the Habs during Gainey's day (since Carbonneau had his time not long after that). I can think of 4 Red Wing Selke winners during Lidstrom's time there, and that's obviously not factoring in Zetterberg, who has yet to win one. Funny thing is, not one of them is even remotely a "punishing" defensive forward; they just seem to have a way of doing things over there that severely restricts opposing lines' time and space, which perhaps limits the scope of situations that the defense behind them is going to have to deal with.

Reduced to basics the Red Wings with Bowman coaching, then Babcock, applied contemporary versions of what the Canadiens were doing under Blake with Beliveau,H.Richard,Backstrom or Bowman with Lemaire, Jarvis, Risebrough. The center reduces transition time by forcing quicker and at times bad choices while the wingers remove the better attacking and shooting lanes(keeping the play outside) giving the dmen facing the on coming forwards fewer options to defend with better defensive angles to defend from.

 

[tarheelhockey]

This got me to wondering, has anyone ever played behind more Selke winning (or "best defensive") forwards, and for more seasons?

That's a great observation. Here are top-10 Selke finishes for Red Wings since 91-92.

91-92: Fedorov 2nd
92-93: Fedorov 4th
93-94: Fedorov 1st
94-95: Fedorov 4th
95-96: Fedorov 1st, Yzerman 3rd
96-97: Fedorov 9th
97-98: Yzerman 9th, Larionov 10th
98-99: Yzerman 4th
99-00: Yzerman 1st
00-01: Yzerman 5th
01-02: Fedorov 8th
02-03: Fedorov 8th
03-04: Draper 1st, Maltby 7th
05-06: Draper 6th, Zetterberg 9th
06-07: Zetterberg 7th, Draper 8th
07-08: Datsyuk 1st, Zetterberg 3rd
08-09: Datsyuk 1st, Zetterberg 4th
09-10: Datsyuk 1st, Zetterberg 9th
10-11: Datsyuk 3rd

Lidstrom has had a top-10 Selke finisher on his team every season of his career. Amazing.

 

[livewell68]

That's a great observation. Here are top-10 Selke finishes for Red Wings since 91-92.

91-92: Fedorov 2nd
92-93: Fedorov 4th
93-94: Fedorov 1st
94-95: Fedorov 4th
95-96: Fedorov 1st, Yzerman 3rd
96-97: Fedorov 9th
97-98: Yzerman 9th, Larionov 10th
98-99: Yzerman 4th
99-00: Yzerman 1st
00-01: Yzerman 5th
01-02: Fedorov 8th
02-03: Fedorov 8th
03-04: Draper 1st, Maltby 7th
05-06: Draper 6th, Zetterberg 9th
06-07: Zetterberg 7th, Draper 8th
07-08: Datsyuk 1st, Zetterberg 3rd
08-09: Datsyuk 1st, Zetterberg 4th
09-10: Datsyuk 1st, Zetterberg 9th
10-11: Datsyuk 3rd

Lidstrom has had a top-10 Selke finisher on his team every season of his career. Amazing.

Maybe this has helped the Red Wings and Lidstrom maintain that great defense first track record?

 

[tarheelhockey]

Maybe this has helped the Red Wings and Lidstrom maintain that great defense first track record?

It could be argued as a chicken-and-egg scenario, where Lidstrom makes others look better at the same time they are making Lidstrom look better.

But it's a pretty incredible thing to have played behind Fedorov, Yzerman, Draper, Datsyuk and Zetterberg. Not a whole lot of mistakes up the middle of the ice with that group.

 

[livewell68]

It could be argued as a chicken-and-egg scenario, where Lidstrom makes others look better at the same time they are making Lidstrom look better.

But it's a pretty incredible thing to have played behind Fedorov, Yzerman, Draper, Datsyuk and Zetterberg. Not a whole lot of mistakes up the middle of the ice with that group.

That is very true. The Red Wings have been as complete a team you will find in the last 20 years.

Possibly the only slight weakness they have had at times was in net and maybe injuries hit them in some seasons.

 

[redbull]

That's a great observation. Here are top-10 Selke finishes for Red Wings since 91-92.

Lidstrom has had a top-10 Selke finisher on his team every season of his career. Amazing.

not to take away from the stat - truly amazing!

But Lidstrom DOES play a role in those Selke winners. The Selke is as much a team award as a personal award IMO. Lidstrom's poise with the puck, his ability to steer the puck from danger, make a quick pass to avoid danger - this ALL prevents offense.

There are implications both ways, for sure.

Also, the team style, the defense-first focus in something systemic, bought-in by all the players, this is a huge factor in the team success they've seen over such a long period of time.

Look at that list though...some incredible players there.

 

[steve141]

Sorry, Lidstrom doesn't win a single Norris in the 70's imo no matter what team and what age you want to slot him into.
Lidstrom would of gotten killed just like Salming almost was and Lidstrom is no where even close to being as tough as Salming.
You can not say that this player or that player couldn't play today due to the speed of the game and then ignore the fact that certain players today are just simply not tough enough to play back then.

I agree that Lidstrom wouldn't win any Norrises in the 70s. Saying that he wouldn't be tough enough to play back then is just silly though. We are talking about a guy who has missed only two out of 260 (0.7%) possible play-off games in his career. The only two he missed were because he was having surgery on his testicles.

Side note on Lidstrom's durability:
During his 19 year long NHL career he has played more games than any other player has ever done during a 19 year span (1752 games compared to runner up Gretzky at 1695). Since his rookie year he has played 102 games more than any other player (Recchi), i.e. he has packed in more than one extra season's worth of games over any other player.

 

[Rhiessan71]

Look guys, there's a reason why players had shorter peaks and careers back then, it was a very rough, physically abusing time. Triple that and more towards Euro players.

All you have to do is watch games of Salming from the 70's and it will become pretty evident what I'm talking about.

I know Lidstrom has not missed many games but we're not talking about taking just any player back to the 70's, we're talking about bringing an European back.
Whooooole different can of worms and I'm telling you right now, Lidstrom would not survive what Salming did.

I'm not saying the bias, discrimination and flat out physical abuse towards Euro players was by any means right what so ever back then, but the fact of the matter is, it WAS there in a big way.

 

[livewell68]

Look guys, there's a reason why players had shorter peaks and careers back then.

All you have to do is watch games of Salming from the 70's and it will become pretty evident what I'm talking about.

I know Lidstrom has not missed many games but we're not talking about taking just any player back to the 70's, we're talking about bringing an European back.
Whooooole different can of worms and I'm telling you right now, Lidstrom would not survive what Salming did.

I'm not saying the bias, discrimination and flat out physical abuse towards Euro players was by any means right what so ever back then, but the fact of the matter is, it WAS there in a big way.

Exactly, players were nasty back then and this was during the time of the Big Bad Broad Street Bullies. There was definitely a sense of racism and discremination towards the new European players back then.

Guys like Clarke were out to get players heads back then.

 

[danincanada]

I agree that Lidstrom wouldn't win any Norrises in the 70s. Saying that he wouldn't be tough enough to play back then is just silly though. We are talking about a guy who has missed only two out of 260 (0.7%) possible play-off games in his career. The only two he missed were because he was having surgery on his testicles.

I agree too because Lidstrom was only a little kid in the 70's.

Seriously though, I don't know how anyone could claim this and there is nothing scientific to back it up. It's almost as silly as saying Orr wouldn't win any Norris' now. No one knows how either player would do if transported to another era.

I think everything is on Lidstrom's side though because hockey has evolved and the players are better now. He plays in a league with bigger, faster and better conditioned players who train year round. He also faces the best from around the world and there are what, 1.5 million people playing hockey now? How many played back in the 70's? 500,000 at most? It's hard to not bring up this argument over and over again but Orr was a big fish in a small pond when compared to today.

 

[steve141]

Well Lidstrom dominated his peers more then Bourque did so theres a plus for him.

Lidstrom is by far the best offensive defenseman of his era.

In Bourques, many would make a very good case for Paul Coffey, in a timeframe when Dmen could run and gun all they wanted and the NHL was at its highest scoring.

Lidstrom is dominating his peers when more people from all over the world are in the league, not so much the case when Bourque played.

He is one of the best, but I don't think it's fair to say that he is "by far" better offensively than Leetch or Gonchar. He rarely ran away with the defenceman scoring title. He has the best combination of durability and offense in his era though, leading to big career totals.

 

[tarheelhockey]

He is one of the best, but I don't think it's fair to say that he is "by far" better offensively than Leetch or Gonchar. He rarely ran away with the defenceman scoring title.

Depending on what you consider "his era", I'd throw Zubov in there as well.

Heck, why not just lay 'em all out there for consideration. PPG for defensemen with 900+ games played, 1991-present.

Brian Leetch .83
Nicklas Lidstrom .74
Sergei Zubov .72
Sergei Gonchar .67
Rob Blake .61

Now, if you move the timeframe up to 1997-present you get a very different picture:
(500 gp minimum, inclusive of MacInnis at 499)

Lidstrom .76
MacInnis .73
Leetch .71
Gonchar .70
Pronger .65
Zubov .65

Finally, post-lockout to present:
(200 gp minimum)

Lidstrom .80
Zubov .77
Gonchar .74
Boyle .72
Markov .71
Niedermayer .71
Visnovsky .71

 

[Canadiens1958]

Comparisons

I agree too because Lidstrom was only a little kid in the 70's.

Seriously though, I don't know how anyone could claim this and there is nothing scientific to back it up. It's almost as silly as saying Orr wouldn't win any Norris' now. No one knows how either player would do if transported to another era.

I think everything is on Lidstrom's side though because hockey has evolved and the players are better now. He plays in a league with bigger, faster and better conditioned players who train year round. He also faces the best from around the world and there are what, 1.5 million people playing hockey now? How many played back in the 70's? 500,000 at most? It's hard to not bring up this argument over and over again but Orr was a big fish in a small pond when compared to today.

Lidstrom grew up in the 1970's and 1980's playing his youth hockey at that time. The numbers you cite seem like the composite youth hockey numbers for Canada, the USA and the remaining hockey playing nations. How 1.5 million kids playing hockey in 2011 may impact or be viewed as part of the competition that drives a 40+ year old NHL player would be interesting to see.

If we take Bobby Orr's last healthy season - 1974-75 he was playing in the context of 18 NHL teams + 14 WHA teams = 32 teams, while Lidstrom played the 2010-11 season in the context of 30 Nhl teams. Given the slight difference in roster sizes but appreciating the movement between leagues, it is rather obvious that participation in the elite North American hockey pond was almost identical, about 700 players. Both were their eras biggest defensive fish in a similar sized pond give or take a measuring cup.

 

[Pear Juice]

Look guys, there's a reason why players had shorter peaks and careers back then, it was a very rough, physically abusing time. Triple that and more towards Euro players.

All you have to do is watch games of Salming from the 70's and it will become pretty evident what I'm talking about.

I know Lidstrom has not missed many games but we're not talking about taking just any player back to the 70's, we're talking about bringing an European back.
Whooooole different can of worms and I'm telling you right now, Lidstrom would not survive what Salming did.

I'm not saying the bias, discrimination and flat out physical abuse towards Euro players was by any means right what so ever back then, but the fact of the matter is, it WAS there in a big way.

Phil Esposito is especially loathed over here due to downright unsportsmanlike conduct in the 1977 WHC. Stig Salming (Börje's brother) has said that Espo tried to punch him in a hotel restaurant after the group stage game where the Canadians had played extremely nasty, but Sweden still winning the game 4-2. Lots of spearings and high sticks. At the incident at the restaurant his own teammates had to wrestle him to the floor. He also spat against players in the locker room corridor and behaved like an ass against Swedish legendary reporter Arne Hegerfors.

 

[Epsilon]

Esposito is legitimately one of the worst people involved with high-level hockey over the past few decades. The guy is an embarrassment to everyone who thinks adults should comport themselves with some level of civility and maturity. The mind of a 13 year old in a thug's body; he would have been a bar bouncer if he didn't have the talent to get into pro hockey.

 

[Pear Juice]

Esposito is legitimately one of the worst people involved with high-level hockey over the past few decades. The guy is an embarrassment to everyone who thinks adults should comport themselves with some level of civility and maturity. The mind of a 13 year old in a thug's body; he would have been a bar bouncer if he didn't have the talent to get into pro hockey.

It's interesting how to account for such things in for example a top-100 project. I can't help but project some of it onto his hockey career. Even if I say to myself that I won't, I know that I'd probably let it influence my opinion of him anyhow.

 

[BraveCanadian]

NHL is so much faster that you have to make quick and simple plays most of the time. You don't have time to develop creative plans. In those cases when players have that extra second they make the creative play.

Most truly great players seem to have an ability to slow the game down or at least act as if they are seeing it slowed down. ie. Gretzky, Lemieux etc.

You're kidding yourself if you really think the players at that much faster now than 10 to 20 years ago.