Salary Cap: Lets put Salary structure expenditures to the test.

[egd27]

Okay but we spend just over 50% of the cap on our entire forward group (about 54%). So we pay to have the most expensive offense for a group that will likely finish 1st or 2nd in the league if healthy. you pay for what you get.

If we get a middle of the pack defense and middle of the pack goaltending (also what we pay for) then this should be a top 10 team.

So if everyone stays healthy and does their job, we should compete? Well tough to argue with that. Let's hope it happens.

 

[hotpaws]

No no, never said a word about the cup. The top 4 haven’t tied management’s hands in re grouping the roster. It actually got better to this point. No negative effect because of 4 high salaries everyone complains about with zero context but it is readily accepted without question. I question it because i say the roster got betterment and kept all the core and improved it actually. Are you of the thinking this regroup is a worse team? If you do think its worse we shouldn’t even discuss this further. I say it’s definitely improved

every year on this board i read the team improved , last year it was Barrie was an elite 1st pair D and grit was useless

i believe the D has improved , Brodie has to be upgrade on Barrie who was useless

we'll see if the forwards have gotten better , a lot of ifs with bringing back Spezza and signing Joe and Simmonds while having to dump Kap/Johnson because we spent so much of the cap on 3 forwards

 

[egd27]

Yes. Our four still have a full 4 years of cap stability and five with Tavares and Marner.Simply Hyman‘s goals added to make 5 and $2.25 Equaled a list of 8 from Vegas ha. The Four are actually less than 50% of the cap too by the way. He approximated and might even be over on them.

In fairness, the extra 21 goals from the Vegas guys represented 0.89% more cap.

 

[Wafflewhipper]

No, not just 4 players.......the number of forwards that represent 50% of the cap.

Using my previous list, goals by forwards representing 50% of the cap

Toronto 120
Tampa 128
Vegas 141
Colorado 135
Boston 161

This is about competitive balance also and quality of players also after the the Approximately 50% of cap space also. Its not only about the 4 players and Comparing them to 8 players like some of your lists and ignoring everyone else like you are implying we should do to suit your case. The amount of variables you are choosing to ignore while focusing on 50% cap space is flawed. Tampa has a 18 man roster with $2,900,000 cap space to sign them for example. They are trying to dump Tyler Johnson and his $5,000,000 cap hit for example. We have no such concern to deal with. We are actually showing much more stability than them. Thats a variable you ignored in trying to explain your take. We kept our core together and actually improved it. Who looks like they are more stable us or them. Did you go over 50% on any of them rosters you posted. We are actually under with the big 4 contract also by the way.
Vegas has a goalie that just had surgery and Fleury,two starters. $12,000,000 cap hit there. We have Freddy and Campbell for $6,650,000. Thats $5,500,000 cheaper and they are quality and healthy. The competitive balance achieved by our management to go along with some rather nice stability going forward says that the big 4 did not hurt our competitiveness. Actually i believe we got better while keeping them easily

 

[Wafflewhipper]

In fairness, the extra 21 goals from the Vegas guys represented 0.89% more cap.

I was wondering that. We are slightly under 50% also with the 4. I think you are misunderstanding my full intent onposting. The big 4 aren’t hurting our competitive balance as we improved this off season so far. We are slightly over cap but nothing serious.

 

[The CyNick]

How are we equating salary cap compliancy to Cup competitiveness?

Getting 23 players signed and under a cap ceiling to begin a season, and where that team will end up in the standings or how it performs in the playoffs is still TBD as of now. These are mutually exclusive events Cap management vs Team performance that don't necessarily equate to guaranteed on ice success because of the successful completion of the first.

The results of the team not the salary cap management prior to, will prove or disprove the theory of you can find success with 1/2 your cap spent only 4 forwards.

Leafs brought in Barrie, Kerfoot, Spezza, Ceci, and later Clifford & Campbell etc and were also cap complaint throughout the year but still with the top 4 eating up the very same CH% combined of a $81.5 mil hard ceiling and we all saw how disappointing this year played out finishing ending well below expectations.

The only thing that has changed from last year to this year to this point in time is you have swapped depth players and tinkered around the edges replacing Barrie, Ceci, Kapanen, Johnsson, Clifford etc with Thornton, Vesey, Brodie, Bogosian and Simmonds. The hope is that the changes will have a positive impact and lead to success and not failure but there is no concrete hard evidence today that it will.

So repeating the question, how are we proving four high salaries and compete successful compete level before they have even played a game?

If the Leafs lose in round #1 again does that prove you can win with 4 players eating up 1/2 your cap? I'd say that end result would disprove this theory and changes likely coming aft 2 unsuccessful attempts. IMO

Agree with this.

There's also been this sneaky thing that has happened since Dubas took over. When Lou and Babs were here, we were talking about being on there vege of a Chicago like dynasty. Lou was ousted for two 1st round exits. Babs for a poor start the following year.

Since Dubas has taken over and two years of his player management, it's now about winning a round being the sign of success. When in reality the bill of goods being sold was this core had Cup potential. Now suddenly it's like one round is cause for a celebration.

I would argue the lowered expectations for this team has ALREADY proven spending half the cap on one position is a disaster.

 

[egd27]

This is about competitive balance also and quality of players also after the the Approximately 50% of cap space also. Its not only about the 4 players and Comparing them to 8 players like some of your lists and ignoring everyone else like you are implying we should do to suit your case. The amount of variables you are choosing to ignore while focusing on 50% cap space is flawed. Tampa has a 18 man roster with $2,900,000 cap space to sign them for example. They are trying to dump Tyler Johnson and his $5,000,000 cap hit for example. We have no such concern to deal with. We are actually showing much more stability than them. Thats a variable you ignored in trying to explain your take. We kept our core together and actually improved it. Who looks like they are more stable us or them. Did you go over 50% on any of them rosters you posted. We are actually under with the big 4 contract also by the way

I'm not making a case.

The original post stated the Leafs spend a similar amount of cap on forwards as many teams. This is true, but you then you must look deeper at how that forward money is being spent.

All I did was point out the players that some of the top teams have for roughly the same money the Leafs spend on AM, JT, MM, & WN. That is what they need to compete against.

 

[Wafflewhipper]

Agree with this.

There's also been this sneaky thing that has happened since Dubas took over. When Lou and Babs were here, we were talking about being on there vege of a Chicago like dynasty. Lou was ousted for two 1st round exits. Babs for a poor start the following year.

Since Dubas has taken over and two years of his player management, it's now about winning a round being the sign of success. When in reality the bill of goods being sold was this core had Cup potential. Now suddenly it's like one round is cause for a celebration.

I would argue the lowered expectations for this team has ALREADY proven spending half the cap on one position is a disaster.

The pressure was on to win a round because of losing 3 times with Babcock and twice with Lou there. Ever think of it that way. I will suggest that the problem was the composition of the roster with a really really inevective bottom 6. This top 6 has carried the team fir a long time. Management was unanimously in favour of toughening up the roster to be harder to play against. They moved skill players and brought in grit. Thats what everyone including yourself said we needed. So why do you not like it now you got it. I’m confused.

 

[Wafflewhipper]

I'm not making a case.

The original post stated the Leafs spend a similar amount of cap on forwards as many teams. This is true, but you then you must look deeper at how that forward money is being spent.

All I did was point out the players that some of the top teams have for roughly the same money the Leafs spend on AM, JT, MM, & WN. That is what they need to compete against.

I think you aren’t but i just left that.
This is about getting better and keeping all the core forwards also. Remaining or exceeding where we were on balance and team structure too. I posted this thread for number comparison. They are extremely different with many different circumstances for many many teams but some how, some where when everyone is different, we are the only ones doing it wrong. I completely wanted to add context to that myth with a look at the entire picture. We are not that odd at all. The quality of the players dictates we have to pay them pretty high to keep them. Edmontons two centers that make $21,000,000 combined are young,haven’t won anything either yet. Thats just $1,634,000 cheaper than Tavares/Matthews.

 

[moon111]

There was nothing wrong with Panzer IV's and Panthers. However, what happens when then enemy halts your blitzkrieg tactics? You need a breakthrough tank, bring in the Tiger.
The Columbus Blue Jackets were the perfect opposition for the Leafs. They could put up a wall and stop them. Doesn't matter how much you paid for them, they're simply not going to perform when they're taken out of their element. The Leafs might of brought in elements that are bigger and slower... but also unstoppable. With a hole exploited in the opposition's defense, you'll see those fast, nimble weapons get behind enemy lines and wreck havoc.

 

[Wafflewhipper]

There was nothing wrong with Panzer IV's and Panthers. However, what happens when then enemy halts your blitzkrieg tactics? You need a breakthrough tank, bring in the Tiger.
The Columbus Blue Jackets were the perfect opposition for the Leafs. They could put up a wall and stop them. Doesn't matter how much you paid for them, they're simply not going to perform when they're taken out of their element. The Leafs might of brought in elements that are bigger and slower... but also unstoppable. With a hole exploited in the opposition's defense, you'll see those fast, nimble weapons get behind enemy lines and wreck havoc.

Haha lol bang bang

 

[egd27]

I think you aren’t but i just left that.
This is about getting better and keeping all the core forwards also. Remaining or exceeding where we were on balance and team structure too. I posted this thread for number comparison. They are extremely different with many different circumstances for many many teams but some how, some where when everyone is different, we are the only ones doing it wrong. I completely wanted to add context to that myth with a look at the entire picture. We are not that odd at all. The quality of the players dictates we have to pay them pretty high to keep them. Edmontons two centers that make $21,000,000 combined are young,haven’t won anything either yet. Thats just $1,634,000 cheaper than Tavares/Matthews.

Well this should be the season to find out.

On paper the goaltending is solid.
On paper the D has been upgraded.

Now we shall see if a forward core with only 5 guys making more than league average can get it done.

 

[Wafflewhipper]

Well this should be the season to find out.

On paper the goaltending is solid.
On paper the D has been upgraded.

Now we shall see if a forward core with only 5 guys making more than league average can get it done.

Robertson,Simmonds (healthy for first time in 2 years) hyman,Vesey,Thornton and lots and lots of solid depth should be ok. The energy and jam that was sooo missing will only help.

 

[The CyNick]

The pressure was on to win a round because of losing 3 times with Babcock and twice with Lou there. Ever think of it that way. I will suggest that the problem was the composition of the roster with a really really inevective bottom 6. This top 6 has carried the team fir a long time. Management was unanimously in favour of toughening up the roster to be harder to play against. They moved skill players and brought in grit. Thats what everyone including yourself said we needed. So why do you not like it now you got it. I’m confused.

I didn't say rely on senior citizens to provide the toughness. I would like toughness at the TOP of the lineup.

Wayne Simmons will be glued to the bench in crunch time in the playoffs...if the Leafs make it to the playoffs

 

[Wafflewhipper]

I didn't say rely on senior citizens to provide the toughness. I would like toughness at the TOP of the lineup.

Wayne Simmons will be glued to the bench in crunch time in the playoffs...if the Leafs make it to the playoffs

Yeah there is something to be said there. Bogo plays with jam,so does Vesey etc. A bit younger. I like drafting skill but believe you need to draft a couple bangers. He doesn’t.
You can trade skill for it but teams always hold on to them guys too.

 

[The CyNick]

Yeah there is something to be said there. Bogo plays with jam,so does Vesey etc. A bit younger. I like drafting skill but believe you need to draft a couple bangers. He doesn’t.
You can trade skill for it but teams always hold on to them guys too.

It's a misconception by the blogger community that you can just acquire toughness at any time. And then those people who have never played or don't listen to people who have played think you add a 4th liner with toughness and now your forward group is tough. You add an 8th D-man with bite, and now your D is "physical".

The same guys who ate the vast majority of the key minutes last year will do the same this year. They were soft last year and wilted at crunch time, no reason to think anything will change.

 

[Wafflewhipper]

It's a misconception by the blogger community that you can just acquire toughness at any time. And then those people who have never played or don't listen to people who handed played think you add a 4th liner with toughness and now your forward group is tough. You add an 8th D-man with bite, and now your D is "physical".

The same guys who are the vast majority of the key minutes last year will do the same this year. They were soft last year and wilted at crunch time, no reason to think anything will change.

I didn’t like the season very much at all. Would be hard pressed to disagree with you there. Somebody will though
Inconsistent as hell all season. Thats why all the veteran leadership was brought in for the most part. Young players suck man. Do all this nice stuff and then bury themselves when it’s crunch time and they panic.
They’ll learn it but patience can get thin for sure. The consistency sucked and they all need to play with Balls or it won’t work. Anderson kid has fire they are saying. I never seen him but it sounds like he can mix it up. Its funny how the skilled players determine inwardly that they don’t have to pay the price physically but they do. Yeah we need everybody nasty to win

 

[The CyNick]

I didn’t like the season very much at all. Would be hard pressed to disagree with you there. Somebody will though
Inconsistent as hell all season. Thats why all the veteran leadership was for the most part. Young players suck man. Do all this nice stuff and then bury themselves when it’s crunch time and they panic.
They’ll learn it but patience can get thin for sure. The consistency sucked and they all need to play with Balls or it won’t work. Anderson kid has fire they are saying. I never seen him but it sounds like he can mix it up. Its funny how the skilled players determine inwardly that they don’t have to pay the price physically but they do. Yeah we need everybody nasty to win

The Anderson kid may not even play a regular shift.

Don't know if you ever played hockey, but there's nothing worse than a scrub player trying to rally the troops. Teams generally follow the mantra of the top players. If the top players play soft, so will everyone else. You may get a hero at the bottom of the lineup who plays the right way and calls guys out, but guys like generally get tuned out.

To be successful this team needs Matthews to put in max effort more than once every eight games. You need Marner to stop looking like he's trying out for battle of the blades. You need Nylander to realize his skates are allowed in the crease. You need Reilly to not get shoved around in front of the net. You need Muzzin to throw big hits every game, not every third or fourth game.

I am a firm believer that most players are what they are. This group assembled will never dominate down low against a good team in the playoffs. They certainly won't do it every night for a two month period in the spring.

 

[4thline]

The same guys who ate the vast majority of the key minutes last year will do the same this year. They were soft last year and wilted at crunch time, no reason to think anything will change.

Man, I guess Dubas really got shafted then being handed a lame duck core destined to never live up to high expectations.

 

[The CyNick]

Man, I guess Dubas really got shafted then being handed a lame duck core destined to never live up to high expectations.

He needed to use what he was given to build a real team. All the assets were in place to do that.

 

[Ciao]

every year on this board i read the team improved , last year it was Barrie was an elite 1st pair D and grit was useless

i believe the D has improved , Brodie has to be upgrade on Barrie who was useless

we'll see if the forwards have gotten better , a lot of ifs with bringing back Spezza and signing Joe and Simmonds while having to dump Kap/Johnson because we spent so much of the cap on 3 forwards

Hope is the last thing to abandon us.

 

[willmma]

There's nothing fishy. Fischer is making $874,125 in 2020-21 and $1,125,875 in 2021-22.

The issue is on Spotrac.com is has his cap hit as $10M not $1M. Bringing the Arizona salaries to be $11M over the cap.

Fischy?

 

[Stephen]

There are like maybe 10 very club friendly contracts everyone likes to trot out to compare the Leafs' player salaries. Almost all of them, save Brayden Point, were signed before the player broke out. It's unfortunate that the pandemic struck right before the higher RFA salary trend hit the rest of the league, and that Boston struck gold 3 times with Marchand, Bergeron and Pastrnak all under $7 million. It's annoying as hell that there are so many people out there that thank that just because Nathan MacKinnon is signed for $6.3 million for another 3 seasons, that the Leafs should have been able to sign the big 3 for the same value. When he signed that contract, he was coming off a 21 goal, 53 point season when the cap was a lot lower.

I agree in theory but Point had a 90 point season before he signed his current contract, so he had certainly broken out by the time of signing.

 

[Buds17]

This (payroll heavily tilted in favour of forwards) will unfortunately continue to be a story until it's no longer applicable. The team either can and will win at some point rendering it all moot, or the approach will eventually require some altering.

 

[Sherpaderp]

Looks like 1 million to me, not 10 million.

it is clearly $10m.