Lets evaluate the rebuild returns so far.

[Off Sides]

Look, I understand Kreider is a very complicated matter right now. I don’t think you can use the examples of Brassard and Stepan as a guide to how to deal with Kreider, as both players were showing signs of dropoff leading up to their respective departures. Even moving Hayes only tells me that he likely represented a potential impediment to whichever young center they deem as the other top six centers. Kreider is unique, and, IMO would be an asset for this rebuild going forward. He’s not one-dimensional as some of his critics claim. He has embraced becoming a leader. And, the truth is, and the analytics bear this out, he lifts the play of his linemates. He’d Be the perfect winger if this team would luck out and add the likes of Hughes or even Cozens/Dach. I would be perfectly comfortable giving him a six-year, $42 million deal, and would even include a limited 10-team NTC. It, if that doesn’t get it done, then you move him.

I probably should have left out the small print, mostly was just kind of pointing out how much future cap space is going to be committed towards all this stockpiling, should the development of that stockpiling go well, especially if at that point they are anticipating improving the team from outside means by importing either UFAs or trades where they are taking more cap than is outgoing.

If Kreider is one of the players who facilitate that going well, sure I get that, I'm just not so sure I see him accepting any offer like that.

Since he can not be extended officially until July 1st, past the 2019 draft, and since players usually start high and teams start low in negotiations, and he may want to see what the UFA players this year sign for to get a better idea about what he could get next UFA season...

Anyway, not trying to be a jerk or ruin your day, I like Kreider too, view him as a pretty unique player, who could help develop and all that, never really used him in comparable with Brassard, Stepan, Hayes, etc, yet the decline risk is scary to me, just being honest.

If Kreider is willing to agree to a extension prior to him being officially able to sign it, and that comes in at something the Rangers feel is in line with what they are possibly anticipating as their cap structure down the road, sure I could see them going that direction too.

 

[True Blue]

That's essentially what we had with Torts. Well, seven goalies, if you count Hank.

You also forget the level of talent that Torts has, as opposed to AV.

 

[Levitate]

Gorton should get solid marks for what he has done so far in terms of trades. Exactly what rebuild needs. IMHO after 3/4 of a season he really nailed the coaching staff which should not be discounted. If Quinn gets the best out of all (most) of our youngsters for the future core - it would be great win. I mean just look at how ADA progressed making the Stepan trade look much better now than barely half a year ago.

As long as DeAngelo can stay in the lineup the Rangers may have hit a big homerun with him. A 40+ point defenseman with excellent advanced stats,plays with an edge? Hell, we'll see if he can push 50 some points with a full year under his belt. If the Rangers can find the right partner for him he could hold down a spot on a top pairing

That is...if he can stay in the lineup without pissing off the coaches or whatever goes on

 

[nyr2k2]

The only thing I would caution with DeAngelo is recently he's been picking up a lot of secondary assists. For the year he has 8 primary and 10 secondary which is fine, but 7 of his last 10 have been secondary. We saw with Brady Skjei how difficult it is to maintain point totals that are heavily weighted towards secondary assists (his rookie year, 61% were secondary), so it's worth at least keeping an eye on as he continues to pick up the points. Pionk is another guy we've seen this with (I'm not comparing him to Pionk).

 

[JT Kreider]

Remember how bad things were looking after we got our shit kicked in by the Penguins in 2016? We had an aging core locked into bad contracts and no prospect pool to speak of outside of Buchnevich and Shestyorkin (Skjei had already graduated by this time).

That wasn't really that long ago in the scheme of things and its been a pretty impressive turn around. We have a deep prospect pool that is about to get deeper with our abundance of picks entering the next two drafts.

BUT, and this is a gigantic but, I'm not so sure I believe in this organizations ability to draft and develop true elite gamebreaking offensive talents.

 

[patnyrnyg]

generational talents are rare.

doing a better job drafting is a start and KEEPING those guys here who are on the cusp of becoming elite players in their own right is just as important. CK being shopped ? is that smart ?

this idea that anyone due a 2nd deal needs to be moved is flawed. you cannot build a team, even with top draft picks, without some older established players. there needs to be a mix to create a team.

we have some nice looking young dmen and forwards actually but this team lacks HIGH END TALENT.

we need minimum 1 or more like 2 true SCORING FORWARDS and a TRUE TOP PAIR DMAN.

this rebuild is real. hold the line and all that sounds good but again, ill repeat my narrative, you cant do it by drafting late 1sts and 2nds. that isnt how you rebuild a team like ours and if thats what you try to do, the only way it happens is over long period of time and with substantial luck

we have TWO LEGIT TOP NHL forwards on this team right now. 93 and 13. thats it.

we have NO LEGIT dmen. some good ones like 76, 77 and maybe 22 but not a top pair guy on the roster.

this organization is barren of high end talent for the most part, except for the last draft, its been pretty lean. sure kravtsov looks like a keeper. same with chytl. andersson who knows if hes a 2C or a 3rd line 2 way guy. shesty looks amazing but still an unknown. k'ndre is gonna be a good one but when ? lundkvist looks good but again who knows when ? hajek. lindgren. rykov ???

there will need to be some talent IMPORTED. its going to happen. hartford is VOID of any real talent. the few dmen there haven't really stood out. there are ZERO forwards. our top prospects aren't ready yet and they are primarily dmen.

this team will be epically bad next season. good year to be bad with a top end 2020 draft. maybe thats the plan but again, were 1-3 yrs out after that.

pressing forward sounds great but the reality is that press forward may be both long and painful.

was quinn brought here to lose 40 games his first 2-3 seasons ? can JG survive that ? will the garden faithful allow that ? why keep 93 and 20 if thats the plan ?

there is a middle ground here and i think thats here JG is heading.

We do not know they were shopping Kreider or if some teams called asking. I did hear guys from tsn and sportsnet say teams have asked and been told the price for him would be high. Secondly, let's not make Kreider out to more than what he is. Every year (and I am a big Kreider fan) he has been "on the cusp of breaking out" and never has broken out. This is only the 2nd year he has cracked 25 goals and has yet to crack 30. He is not Crosby, Malkin, Kane and others who never hit UFA status because the teams lock him up beforehand. Keeping him is a 2-way street. Depends on what kind of deal he is looking to get and that is what Gorton will have to find out next year. If they are on the same page, extend him or at least start working on it. If he is looking for $8MM+ for 7-8 years, then you trade him at the deadline and let him test the waters.

 

[offdacrossbar]

The irony is not lost on me

actually, like McIlrath, that pick was dumb

1. not the right spot to choose him

you dont draft goalies in the 1st or even 2nd round.

period.

 

[offdacrossbar]

i think we got a glimpse of the future with lemiuex. the blueprint.

JG will look to poach young nhl ready talent from good teams. this kid hasnt played much because winny is loaded.

hes 22, has some talent - albeit not a game breaker, but hes exactly what this guy needs to do to rebuild this team.

add young, fast, talent thats affordable and do it while keeping the few true nhl players we have on roster now. using picks to draft OR as trade bait on draft day.

i see us as very busy on draft day. a package to move up is in the works. i expect us to be aggressive trying to move up to take 2 PLAYERS (forwards) in the top 12 or so. i expect them to make roster players available plus picks to do so.

something like 5 and 12 makes sense and if so, theres good talent there.

the plan. draft day trades, FA's and SMART drafting with min 2 top 12 picks in this years draft.

that last one doh...

 

[CasusBelli]

You also forget the level of talent that Torts has, as opposed to AV.

Fair point.

 

[Sarge13]

actually, like McIlrath, that pick was dumb

1. not the right spot to choose him

you dont draft goalies in the 1st or even 2nd round.

period.

I agree with everything except the period.

There are always exceptions, some guys look really good. And of course it has to be a good fit. In '12 some mock drafts had us taking Vasilevski, and I would have been okay with that, though we were picking at number 28 back then...

 

[Levitate]

Remember how bad things were looking after we got our **** kicked in by the Penguins in 2016? We had an aging core locked into bad contracts and no prospect pool to speak of outside of Buchnevich and Shestyorkin (Skjei had already graduated by this time).

That wasn't really that long ago in the scheme of things and its been a pretty impressive turn around. We have a deep prospect pool that is about to get deeper with our abundance of picks entering the next two drafts.

BUT, and this is a gigantic but, I'm not so sure I believe in this organizations ability to draft and develop true elite gamebreaking offensive talents.

They still probably started this rebuild a year or 2 too late. BUt what can you do.

The only thing I would caution with DeAngelo is recently he's been picking up a lot of secondary assists. For the year he has 8 primary and 10 secondary which is fine, but 7 of his last 10 have been secondary. We saw with Brady Skjei how difficult it is to maintain point totals that are heavily weighted towards secondary assists (his rookie year, 61% were secondary), so it's worth at least keeping an eye on as he continues to pick up the points. Pionk is another guy we've seen this with (I'm not comparing him to Pionk).

The different to me is that he's picking up those second assists by being creative with the puck and making things happen. I'm sure he's benefiting from some luck too but the ability to get some shots through or move the othe rteam out of position before passing the puck to create a chance is more valuable than what SKjei was doing during his run

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

The only thing I would caution with DeAngelo is recently he's been picking up a lot of secondary assists. For the year he has 8 primary and 10 secondary which is fine, but 7 of his last 10 have been secondary. We saw with Brady Skjei how difficult it is to maintain point totals that are heavily weighted towards secondary assists (his rookie year, 61% were secondary), so it's worth at least keeping an eye on as he continues to pick up the points. Pionk is another guy we've seen this with (I'm not comparing him to Pionk).

He's still contributing greatly to the offense despite that though, this is where its important to watch the games (I'm not saying you don't, I know you do, but the stat sheet can lie or at least not tell the entire story.)

For instance, he got a secondary on the Brickley goal @ Carolina but made a fantastic pass to get that play started (He also made an excellent play on the 2nd goal, but had nothing to show for it.)

 

[kovazub94]

Look, I understand Kreider is a very complicated matter right now. I don’t think you can use the examples of Brassard and Stepan as a guide to how to deal with Kreider, as both players were showing signs of dropoff leading up to their respective departures. Even moving Hayes only tells me that he likely represented a potential impediment to whichever young center they deem as the other top six centers. Kreider is unique, and, IMO would be an asset for this rebuild going forward. He’s not one-dimensional as some of his critics claim. He has embraced becoming a leader. And, the truth is, and the analytics bear this out, he lifts the play of his linemates. He’d Be the perfect winger if this team would luck out and add the likes of Hughes or even Cozens/Dach. I would be perfectly comfortable giving him a six-year, $42 million deal, and would even include a limited 10-team NTC. It, if that doesn’t get it done, then you move him.

This is my view on Kreider as well even though I will understand the thought behind if Gorton chooses to move Kreider and get back more assets (too old at the later stages of the next contract, decline performance, too big of hit against cap and too long of a term, blah, blah, blah). I just think that you cannot trade every upcoming UFA and there will be open roster spots that would have to be filled with other UFAs. I'd rather overpay Kreider than eventually pay "Stastnys" or "Schenns" etc.

 

[kovazub94]

The different to me is that he's picking up those second assists by being creative with the puck and making things happen. I'm sure he's benefiting from some luck too but the ability to get some shots through or move the othe rteam out of position before passing the puck to create a chance is more valuable than what SKjei was doing during his run

Yup, the difference is how much ADA controls the play with puck on his stick in offensive zone.

 

[offdacrossbar]

Yup, the difference is how much ADA controls the play with puck on his stick in offensive zone.

newsflash

hes done that since hes been here.

poor intentions re. defensive reads and pinches aside, hes always been our best puck handling/passing dman since hes been here. by a lot.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

Yup, the difference is how much ADA controls the play with puck on his stick in offensive zone.

I think this applies to the defensive zone too.

No one breaks pucks out more frequently with more success than he does. I hate to beat this horse again because it really isn't really a comparison anymore (or it shouldn't be), but its what separates him from a guy like Pionk, who has really struggled with this since he stepped into the league and hasn't improved at all.

 

[Ghost of jas]

I think this applies to the defensive zone too.

No one breaks pucks out more frequently with more success than he does. I hate to beat this horse again because it really isn't really a comparison anymore (or it shouldn't be), but its what separates him from a guy like Pionk, who has really struggled with this since he stepped into the league and hasn't improved at all.

How many times do you see Pionk just turn around and fire the puck off the boards in the defensive zone? You never see ADA do that. He has so much more poise and awareness.

 

[JESSEWENEEDTOCOOK]

How many do you see Pionk just turn around and fire the puck off the boards in the defensive zone? You never see ADA do that. He has so much more poise and awareness.

Pionk is extremely Girardi esque with how he just lets the other team do whatever it wants.

He does everything wrong defensively. I can’t think of a single facet that he excels in.

 

[kovazub94]

newsflash

hes done that since hes been here.

poor intentions re. defensive reads and pinches aside, hes always been our best puck handling/passing dman since hes been here. by a lot.

The discussion was how Skjei's secondary points are not the same as ADA's.

 

[kovazub94]

I think this applies to the defensive zone too.

No one breaks pucks out more frequently with more success than he does. I hate to beat this horse again because it really isn't really a comparison anymore (or it shouldn't be), but its what separates him from a guy like Pionk, who has really struggled with this since he stepped into the league and hasn't improved at all.

I hope we go away from comparison because it's irrelevant, even more so now since Quinn seemed to figure out who's better. But if we were to talk Pionk - he was a freebie signing and lately he also started to show signs of making better reads. I mentioned it before but the Rangers could live with ADA as 2RD and Pionk as 3RD only if the Rangers have a stud all-situations 1RD with size. Otherwise, if it's someone similar to them but with more offensive or better two-way 1RD we would need to move one (Pionk?) and replace him with McQuaid type.

 

[Synergy27]

BUT, and this is a gigantic but, I'm not so sure I believe in this organizations ability to draft and develop true elite gamebreaking offensive talents.

You have to question the logic of anyone who does hold that belief, because there is simply no evidence supporting it. That is why a complete tank is necessary in my opinion. Don't give them the option to miss.

 

[True Blue]

BUT, and this is a gigantic but, I'm not so sure I believe in this organizations ability to draft and develop true elite gamebreaking offensive talents.

One needs to keep in mind there were four straight years of no 1st round picks. And multiple 2nd rounders were traded away as well.

 

[JT Kreider]

You have to question the logic of anyone who does hold that belief, because there is simply no evidence supporting it. That is why a complete tank is necessary in my opinion. Don't give them the option to miss.

That to me is a double edged sword though because of how bad management truly needs to let this team become in order to completely bottom out and get a top 3 pick. Because once you infect your team with the losing mentality stench, it is nearly impossible to get it off.

The Oilers and Sabres buried themselves in a 10 foot hole to get Eichel and McDavid and they're actually closer to digging themselves even deeper then getting out of it.

Meanwhile the biggest difference for a team like Carolina who are the team closest to emerging are picks outside the first round like Aho and Slavin.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

I hope we go away from comparison because it's irrelevant, even more so now since Quinn seemed to figure out who's better. But if we were to talk Pionk - he was a freebie signing and lately he also started to show signs of making better reads. I mentioned it before but the Rangers could live with ADA as 2RD and Pionk as 3RD only if the Rangers have a stud all-situations 1RD with size. Otherwise, if it's someone similar to them but with more offensive or better two-way 1RD we would need to move one (Pionk?) and replace him with McQuaid type.

I think Keane eventually slides into where Pionk is.

A legitimate top pair RHD would be great though. I think we find one for the other side with the 999999999 LD we have in our system.

 

[JT Kreider]

One needs to keep in mind there were four straight years of no 1st round picks. And multiple 2nd rounders were traded away as well.

IMO player development is just as, if not more important than drafting. For example a guy like Pastrnak likely would have never made it if he were drafted to Edmonton. And if Puljujarvi was in Boston playing his formative years under one of the best coaches like Julien and in the great culture they have there he is probably well on his way to becoming an elite scorer in this league.

The difference between Dylan Strome in Arizona and Dylan Strome in Chicago is another example. It was a death sentence for him to be drafted by the Coyotes.

I don't know what is but there seems to be a pretty low ceiling for the offensive production of every player the Rangers have drafted since the lockout. Kreider has been good but for the most part has not lived up to the huge expectations he had when he first came up. Stepan was essentially our first line center and was only on pace to break 60 points once. I know he had great production in the lockout year but everything was out of whack that season and there were a lot of anamolies across the league.