Leon Draisaitl vs Nikita Kucherov: Who is the Best European Forward?

[Duke74]

Flawed argument, a player supposedly that good should be noticeable even if he isn’t collecting as many points because of his line mates

We've never seen Kucherov with bad line mates so it's hard to make that comparison.

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

Leon is the epitome of consistent. You keep mentioning he was only good in the 2 playoff series last year but he had a higher career playoff ppg than Kucherov even before last year's playoffs. You're taking Ls even with your strawman arguments.

Playing on a team with a #1D, the best goalie in the league and another future HOFer in Stamkos is out of Draisaitl's control.

Again, PPG doesn't matter in the slightest when one guy plays so many more games. Am I really supposed to be impressed that Draisaitl had 27 career playoff points in 21 career playoff games (over 5 years) coming into last year, when Kucherov was coming off back to back seasons where he led the NHL in playoff scoring, putting up 34 in 25 and 32 in 23?

I also find it utterly laughable that you want to keep trying to claim Kucherov is just a product of his team, while ignoring the fact that Draisaitl has had McDavid on the ice for all but 3 of his playoff points since 2018.

 

[McNuge]

Again, PPG doesn't matter in the slightest when one guy plays so many more games. Am I really supposed to be impressed that Draisaitl had 27 career playoff points in 21 career playoff games (over 5 years) coming into last year, when Kucherov was coming off back to back seasons where he led the NHL in playoff scoring, putting up 34 in 25 and 32 in 23?

I also find it utterly laughable that you want to keep trying to claim Kucherov is just a product of his team, while ignoring the fact that Draisaitl has had McDavid on the ice for all but 3 of his playoff points since 2018.

32 in 16 on one leg seems pretty impressive to me, what about you?

 

[BurnabyJoe7]

Again, PPG doesn't matter in the slightest when one guy plays so many more games. Am I really supposed to be impressed that Draisaitl had 27 career playoff points in 21 career playoff games (over 5 years) coming into last year, when Kucherov was coming off back to back seasons where he led the NHL in playoff scoring, putting up 34 in 25 and 32 in 23?

I also find it utterly laughable that you want to keep trying to claim Kucherov is just a product of his team, while ignoring the fact that Draisaitl has had McDavid on the ice for all but 3 of his playoff points since 2018.

Yup better abandon the consistency argument now that you know you're wrong on that one. Thanks for pointing out how consistent Draisaitl is though.

No need to continue here. Your entire argument on why Kucherov is better than Draisaitl is because he's played more playoff games. Just know that Corey Perry is a better player than both Kucherov and Draisaitl in that case.

32 in 16 on one leg seems pretty impressive to me, what about you?

The only thing that impresses that guy is sample size. I don't think his university stats class was nice to him and that's all he remembers.

 

[wetcoast]

But is 37 games enough a large enough sample size? What if the other guy has 136 playoff games played?

Yes considering his regular season performance, ie. not a fluke and both guys play on TEAMS that will make everyone's GP totals different.

And, if your team loses in 4 games and you score 5 points, are you really a good playoff performer?

If you referring to Draisatal in the 21 playoffs the answer would be yes as he was in on 5 of the 8 Oiler goals.

the Jets had a Smythe worthy series from Helly and had more balanced scoring and the Oilers weren't that deep.

Also as I recall McDavid somehow didn't draw a single penalty that series so the zebras certainly didn't help matters there.

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

32 in 16 on one leg seems pretty impressive to me, what about you?

Sure, it seems pretty impressive, until you notice that McDavid was on the ice for 30 of those points. And more than half of those points (17) came in the 5 games against Calgary, a paper tiger who once again managed to utterly collapse in the playoffs. Given that he only scored 15 in 11 against LA and Colorado, I'm guessing that Calgary series is an outlier and should probably be taken with a grain of salt, until he shows it wasn't a fluke.

 

[wetcoast]

Sure, it seems pretty impressive, until you notice that McDavid was on the ice for 30 of those points. And more than half of those points (17) came in the 5 games against Calgary, a paper tiger who once again managed to utterly collapse in the playoffs.

The 17 Playoffs was a really coming out party for Leon and it wasn't on coattails either.

Given that he only scored 15 in 11 against LA and Colorado, I'm guessing that Calgary series is an outlier and should probably be taken with a grain of salt, until he shows it wasn't a fluke.

I'm not going to fact check this but I really wonder how many players scored at a better rate than 1.36 PPG when you take out each players "best series"?

Probably not more than a couple of fingers?

 

[Miro4Norris]

Mikko Rantanen

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

Yup better abandon the consistency argument now that you know you're wrong on that one. Thanks for pointing out how consistent Draisaitl is though.

No need to continue here. Your entire argument on why Kucherov is better than Draisaitl is because he's played more playoff games. Just know that Corey Perry is a better player than both Kucherov and Draisaitl in that case.


The only thing that impresses that guy is sample size. I don't think his university stats class was nice to him and that's all he remembers.

So, I've already presented my argument about playoff consistency, which you have yet to convincingly refute, and you want to pretend you're somehow right because I'm not beating that obviously dead horse anymore?

Also, just for the record, that's not my argument at all, no matter how many times you want to misrepresent me. My argument is solely that Draisaitl's higher PPG rate in the playoffs isn't enough to make him a better playoff performer. I haven't made a single statement about who is the better player overall, but don't let simple facts stop you from making more inane claims like this latest one about Corey Perry...

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

The 17 Playoffs was a really coming out party for Leon and it wasn't on coattails either.


I'm not going to fact check this but I really wonder how many players scored at a better rate than 1.36 PPG when you take out each players "best series"?

Probably not more than a couple of fingers?

Sure, but it was also 5+ years ago. And Kucherov has led the league in playoff scoring twice since then.

And, yes, Drai's PPG rate is way up there, even without the Calgary series padding his numbers. But it's still not enough to make him a better playoff performer than Kucherov, because there's still a big difference between being on pace to do something and actually doing it. And there's 0 players who have actually scored more playoff points than Kucherov over the last decade.

 

[Buck Naked]

Sure, it seems pretty impressive, until you notice that McDavid was on the ice for 30 of those points. And more than half of those points (17) came in the 5 games against Calgary, a paper tiger who once again managed to utterly collapse in the playoffs. Given that he only scored 15 in 11 against LA and Colorado, I'm guessing that Calgary series is an outlier and should probably be taken with a grain of salt, until he shows it wasn't a fluke.

Isn't that exactly what Makar did in last year's playoffs? Beat up on two hollow teams with no goalies and defence and then had other players step up to be the best in the actual tough series against Tampa and St Louis?

 

[TropicOfNoReturn]

Just Kucherov vs Draisaitl: Kucherov wins on resume, so far. Draisaitl is an incredible player, so that perhaps could change. It's close on raw talent, but on all accounts, Kucherov is the winner, at this time - his playoff success seals it. Both are HHOF locks already.

The ambiguous title, and several responses in this thread, beg the question of the best European forward of this era. The answer is easily still Kucherov. Guys like Pastrnak and Rantanen are on his heels, but they need to win more - team and individually - to seriously contend.

 

[McPoyle]

Sure, it seems pretty impressive, until you notice that McDavid was on the ice for 30 of those points. And more than half of those points (17) came in the 5 games against Calgary, a paper tiger who once again managed to utterly collapse in the playoffs. Given that he only scored 15 in 11 against LA and Colorado, I'm guessing that Calgary series is an outlier and should probably be taken with a grain of salt, until he shows it wasn't a fluke.

Really? You think one of the most productive playoff series in all of NHL history was an outlier?? Good job sleuthing that one out Sherlock! I doubt many could keep up a 3.4 ppg pace. Thanks for pointing out that players scores in bunches! No one knew till you pointed it out!

I like the phrasing of "only" 15 points in 11 games (1.36 ppg). That is still a 112 point pace on a full season. Pretty good production when you pick and choose the less productive series to make a point.

15 in 11 is as productive as Kuch was in the 2021 playoffs.

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

Isn't that exactly what Makar did in last year's playoffs? Beat up on two hollow teams with no goalies and defence and then had other players step up to be the best in the actual tough series against Tampa and St Louis?

What exactly does Makar have to do with anything relevant? Is someone claiming he's a better playoff performer than Kucherov?

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

Really? You think one of the most productive playoff series in all of NHL history was an outlier?? Good job sleuthing that one out Sherlock! I doubt many could keep up a 3.4 ppg pace. Thanks for pointing out that players scores in bunches! No one knew till you pointed it out!

I like the phrasing of "only" 15 points in 11 games (1.36 ppg). That is still a 112 point pace on a full season. Pretty good production when you pick and choose the less productive series to make a point.

15 in 11 is as productive as Kuch was in the 2021 playoffs.

Sure, even without the Calgary series where both teams forgot to play defense, it was the same PPG rate as one of Kucherov's runs. But, I still easily take the guy who actually scored 32 in a single season over the guy who actually scored less, but might have been able to score even more if his sucky teammates didn't cause his team to lose (or whatever other excuses you want to make for him). Even more so when the guy who actually scored 32 also actually scored 34 the previous year, despite missing the entire regular season due to injury. And actually scored 27 more the next year. And has actually scored 93 points in his last 71 playoff games, leading his team in scoring every year, all over a 3 year period. To me, that's much more impressive than 15 in 11 + one crazy 5 game 2nd round series that will likely never be repeated.

 

[Voodoo Child]

Kucherov. Drai is excellent but he’s deep into the PP and cheats on D.

Not reading the thread but I guarantee some low end individual said Stutzle…

 

[TheOrangeDesk]

Kucherov when he's banged up is capable of putting up 30 in the post-season and he doesn't have the benefit of the best player on his line or team. Draisaitl is good but Kucherov is better.

Drai just broke post season point records against the Flames on one leg.....

 

[sepHF]

Depends on the day, but as an Oilers fan i'd put Kucherov slightly ahead

 

[Frank Drebin]

Sure, even without the Calgary series where both teams forgot to play defense, it was the same PPG rate as one of Kucherov's runs. But, I still easily take the guy who actually scored 32 in a single season over the guy who actually scored less, but might have been able to score even more if his sucky teammates didn't cause his team to lose (or whatever other excuses you want to make for him). Even more so when the guy who actually scored 32 also actually scored 34 the previous year, despite missing the entire regular season due to injury. And actually scored 27 more the next year. And has actually scored 93 points in his last 71 playoff games, leading his team in scoring every year, all over a 3 year period. To me, that's much more impressive than 15 in 11 + one crazy 5 game 2nd round series that will likely never be repeated.

Bro, you're babbling. You do realize this was Draisatl with 32 and Kucherov with less, last season?

 

[TheOrangeDesk]

Draisaitl's most common forward linemate this year (5v5) is Connor McDavid. It's not even particularly close, not counting Zach Hyman. If you make the sample larger, McDavid laps the field.

Draisaitl literally plays more wing than center. It's a verifiable fact.

Not to mention he isn't even good defensively. It used to be a talking point that you would take the center for two-way play. Now people take the center because it says "center" on NHL,com. It's a dogma.

5on5 drai with mcdavid is 445min. Drai without mcdavid is 625min

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

Bro, you're babbling. You do realize this was Draisatl with 32 and Kucherov with less, last season?

That's great. Did you realize that Kucherov has 93 playoff points over the last 3 seasons, which a lot more than Draisaitl (and everyone else in the NHL) has?

 

[Frank Drebin]

That's great. Did you realize that Kucherov has 93 playoff points over the last 3 seasons, which a lot more than Draisaitl (and everyone else in the NHL) has?

Considering his team has played 4 rounds each of those three years, its expected that he would have more points.

You're making some very weird arguments. Do you also have Brayden Point above Mackinnon? He has scored more playoff points in the past 3 years.

Is Patrick Maroon a better player than Jason Robertson? Maroon has scored 4 times as many points as Robertson has in the past 3 post seasons.

 

[McPoyle]

Sure, even without the Calgary series where both teams forgot to play defense, it was the same PPG rate as one of Kucherov's runs. But, I still easily take the guy who actually scored 32 in a single season over the guy who actually scored less, but might have been able to score even more if his sucky teammates didn't cause his team to lose (or whatever other excuses you want to make for him). Even more so when the guy who actually scored 32 also actually scored 34 the previous year, despite missing the entire regular season due to injury. And actually scored 27 more the next year. And has actually scored 93 points in his last 71 playoff games, leading his team in scoring every year, all over a 3 year period. To me, that's much more impressive than 15 in 11 + one crazy 5 game 2nd round series that will likely never be repeated.

Groundbreaking work in determining that an NHL record 17 points in a 5 game series is likely not repeatable. But you don't get to arbitrarily pick which points do and don't count.

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

Considering his team has played 4 rounds each of those three years, its expected that he would have more points.

You're making some very weird arguments. Do you also have Brayden Point above Mackinnon? He has scored more playoff points in the past 3 years.

Is Patrick Maroon a better player than Jason Robertson? Maroon has scored 4 times as many points as Robertson has in the past 3 post seasons.

Yes, it is to be expected to have more points, but we're talking about 93 points over 71 playoff games in 3 consecutive years, leading his team in playoff scoring every year. He's 29 points ahead of 2nd place, league wide in just 3 years. And half of the series he's played in were either ECF or SCF, when it's that much harder. 24 early round games with a higher PPG rate isn't even in the same ballpark in terms of actual achievement.

You also might want to check your numbers, because Point has 61 points in 55 games, compared to 64 in 45 for Mack. But to counter your point, do you think Evander Kane is a better playoff performer than Braden Point? Kane has the higher PPG with a lot fewer games played over the last 3 years.

And, no Maroon is absolutely not even remotely the better player. But, he is oddly effective in the playoffs, and I would very easily call him the better playoff performer up to this point, given that Robertson has only scored 4 points in 7 games. Robertson has a good chance to surpass him in the near future, but he simply hasn't done enough yet.

 

[Dion TheFluff]

"Draisaitl plays with McDavid"

Also forgetting Kucherov plays in Tampa

Kucherov has 17 more points than his next closest teammate. I thinks it's pretty clear to see that Draisaitl benefits more from playing with McDavid than Kucherov with his linemates