Player Discussion Leo Carlsson

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It's already happening, look at Mac and Zegras in years four/five of their pro careers.

These guys used to be at the forefront of Anaheim's hope of a successful rebuild, and currently they're basically 40 point players learning to be "defensively responsible".

Cronin's idea that offense will magically appear once guys learn defense is producing a team that instead just sucks at both.
Cronin is killing the offensive development of our young players. It is so baffling to hear a NHL coach say offense just will happen naturally. That is crazy talk to me. The coach can absolutely make a difference in how a player develops on offense and Cronin is, IMO, killing our young guys. Like you said, he seems to want defensively responsible 40 point players and Leo is headed in that direction.
 
Getzlaf was taking regular shifts on the PK and got Selke votes at age 22.

Getz had years of physical development happen naturally to him before going pro. And when he did go pro, he proved himself first at the AHL. When he was promoted to the NHL, Getz wasn't put into a top line role, but worked his way from the bottom-6. Another aspect from Getzlaf that is missing from Carlsson was that Getzlaf was always playing center prior to being drafted. Carlsson was intermittently playing center at international stages and wing at the SHL level.

Carlsson has been rushed to the NHL without every establishing himself at center at a pro level as well as physical development - which is why he was on a "load mgmt" in his rookie season. This year, Cronin is more adamant about playing the defensive side in order to play a "counter offense" (we aren't a rush offense).

Let's compare and contrast Getz and Carlsson's early career after being drafted. Was Getz' offense sacrificed for defensive play? The answer is no.

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To me it's less "defense is more important than offense" and more about instilling a "grinding" mindset in every player, from our stars to our 4th liners. Every FA signing and trade Pat has made points to that same mindset.

I really think Cronin is just some weird "boot camp" for what Pat sees as our core players to ingrain a "nobody is above back checking" mindset and high level of compete for the rest of their careers.

This is just me talking out of my ass and rationalizing the decisions made but honestly I kind of see the big picture working out. The decision to keep or fire Cronin at the end of this season I think will be really telling, in a lot of ways.
I think it’s a little smoke in mirrors sometimes what they are really trying to do. But there seems to be an undertone of defensive responsibility and playing the “right way” to everything. I just don’t think it’s the right approach with these types of players especially this early on.

Did Eakins ever push this on Terry? I don’t really think so, and he ended up being fine defensively.
 
Third year in the league != age

The point is that these guys who are projected to be good two-way centers get put in defensive situations very early in their careers. Getzlaf was on the PK in his second year at age 21 at the latest. All the other guys I cited were out there even earlier. It's not uncommon and it's not detrimental to their careers.

I'm not saying I agree with the organizational philosophy to pound defense into their heads 1st, 2nd, and 3rd across the board. I don't know that a one size fits all approach is the way to go. But I think it's going to be a huge part of Carlsson's value as a player, so I'd love to see him get more opportunities there.
 
I think it’s a little smoke in mirrors sometimes what they are really trying to do. But there seems to be an undertone of defensive responsibility and playing the “right way” to everything. I just don’t think it’s the right approach with these types of players especially this early on.

Did Eakins ever push this on Terry? I don’t really think so, and he ended up being fine defensively.
I agree with you and also think there's only so much you can change in many players. That's why I think Cronin has to go at the end of the season if not sooner... You risk the "cure" being worse than the "disease."

Although I will say, Leason absolutely laid out Suzuki last night and there is NO way he would have gone for that hit a couple years ago. The guy used to be allergic to contact. So maybe there is some benefit.
 
To me it's less "defense is more important than offense" and more about instilling a "grinding" mindset in every player, from our stars to our 4th liners. Every FA signing and trade Pat has made points to that same mindset.

I really think Cronin is just some weird "boot camp" for what Pat sees as our core players to ingrain a "nobody is above back checking" mindset and high level of compete for the rest of their careers.

This is just me talking out of my ass and rationalizing the decisions made but honestly I kind of see the big picture working out. The decision to keep or fire Cronin at the end of this season I think will be really telling, in a lot of ways.

You kinda contradicted yourself in your big picture.

Point 1. Less about "defense is more important than offense" and more of a "grinding" mentality.
Point 2. "Nobody is above backchecking"

That puts the emphasis on defense. Problem is that we have permitted far too many odd man situations last year and this year, but we are earning more points/wins.

Remember, Cronin said he cannot sacrifice from the defense to help supplement the offense. There are more than one way to generate team points. If we compare the Eakins' last year with the Ducks to Cronin's first year with the Ducks, then we see grinding takes precedence over how to win more games. Cronin was gifted two more offensive forwards in Killorn and Carlsson as well as a revamped blueline with the additions of RD Gudas, RD Lyubushkin, LD LaCombe, LD Minty, RD Luneau (to start the season), a healthy Vaak, and Zell (to end the season).

The biggest differences between last year and this year are two things: great goaltending and reduced amount of penalties (because our PK still sucks).

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Goalie Comp: last year vs this year

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Getzlaf was taking regular shifts on the PK and got Selke votes at age 22.

Barkov was playing semi-regularly short-handed at age 19 and was taking regular PK shifts by age 20. Kopitar as well. Crosby was playing regularly on the PK by age 20 and it didn't seem to hurt his production.

If Leo is projected to be a great all-around player (and, from all I've seen, he is), he should be playing in situations that allow him to develop his already very good defensive skills.

I see you edited your original post and added more to it.

Crosby's and Kopitar's offense were not sacrificed for defense.

Crosby
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Kopitar
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Barkov
He improved his scoring rate between his first two seasons.
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Our Youth, 2-year comp
We see Carlsson's scoring rate drop. We see a lot of our youths scoring rates drop.
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Our Youth, 2-year comp
We see Carlsson's scoring rate drop. We see a lot of our youths scoring rates drop.
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If one or two players were struggling would say it's mostly on them, when pretty much everyone has seen their numbers go down, it has to be the system and coaching, right?

I honestly would have loved to see Carlsson playing under Eakins. Just out of curiosity. I was on the fence with Eakins when he was let go. Cronin on the other hand, I don't want to see back next year. As always thanks for your efforts with these charts.
 
I'm terrified that our development philosophy is going to churn out 40 point defensively responsible 3rd and 2nd overall players.
I’m MGMT’s defense, according to one Reddit user, who posted this, which I skimmed, because it was too much information apparently saying Ducks DO NOT equal championship caliber team, maybe the only way we win is defense first (like the Jets, who had 1 player @ 70+ pts last year, 3 in the 60’s. And then no one above 38 pts.



Apparently this is saying we’ve already failed our rebuild and will never hit the proper war to be a “Cup Cotender”.

So making everyone a 3rd line plug might be the only way to win. Drag everyone down to how bad we are and beat them with experience.

But yeah according to this thingy, we don’t have enough talent on our roster to ever win a cup. So that’s exciting.
 
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If one or two players were struggling would say it's mostly on them, when pretty much everyone has seen their numbers go down, it has to be the system and coaching, right?

I honestly would have loved to see Carlsson playing under Eakins. Just out of curiosity. I was on the fence with Eakins when he was let go. Cronin on the other hand, I don't want to see back next year. As always thanks for your efforts with these charts.

Yes. Statistically there's almost no chance everyone has a down year in the same year.
 
I wonder if Cronin's "offense will just happen naturally" has something to do with how awful the PP has been both years with two different PP coaches. Here's a system, go put the puck in the net, it's what you do naturally?
 
The Athletic Player Cards

For those of you who have the Athletic subscription, I provided the link for the player cards in the date. The link should lead you to the Pacific Division. Find the tab "Team Name", tap it, and find Anaheim Ducks. It should list 12F and 6D.

2023-24
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2024-25
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I guess we're turning Carlsson into a slightly better version of Lundestrom? That offensive rating for this season tanks.
 
The Athletic Player Cards

For those of you who have the Athletic subscription, I provided the link for the player cards in the date. The link should lead you to the Pacific Division. Find the tab "Team Name", tap it, and find Anaheim Ducks. It should list 12F and 6D.

2023-24
View attachment 971946


2024-25
View attachment 971947

I guess we're turning Carlsson into a slightly better version of Lundestrom? That offensive rating for this season tanks.

f*** Cronin, holy shit.
 
Leo seems to have been instructed to be a net front guy this season. The majority of the time whilst the team has control of the puck in the o zone, Leo can be found net front. On the one hand, sure driving to the net is great in certain situations and it compliments Leo's transitional game plus it can simplify the game, but on the other hand it is concerning that he isn't being allowed/encouraged to refine his ability to find vulnerable/soft space within the o zone. If he is off net front and supporting the puck in the o zone it is always in tight areas rather than spreading out and attempting to stretch the defensive assignments when the puck is being passed around. Skating with and without the puck effectively in the o zone are without a doubt some of the most important skills for talented forwards in the NHL these days. So I am somewhat worried that he wont be coached in a way to help harness/develop his quick decision making combined with good skating/movement in the o zone.
 
The Athletic Player Cards

For those of you who have the Athletic subscription, I provided the link for the player cards in the date. The link should lead you to the Pacific Division. Find the tab "Team Name", tap it, and find Anaheim Ducks. It should list 12F and 6D.

2023-24
View attachment 971946


2024-25
View attachment 971947

I guess we're turning Carlsson into a slightly better version of Lundestrom? That offensive rating for this season tanks.

f*** Cronin, holy shit.
IMG_7021.webp
 
Leo seems to have been instructed to be a net front guy this season. The majority of the time whilst the team has control of the puck in the o zone, Leo can be found net front. On the one hand, sure driving to the net is great in certain situations and it compliments Leo's transitional game plus it can simplify the game, but on the other hand it is concerning that he isn't being allowed/encouraged to refine his ability to find vulnerable/soft space within the o zone. If he is off net front and supporting the puck in the o zone it is always in tight areas rather than spreading out and attempting to stretch the defensive assignments when the puck is being passed around. Skating with and without the puck effectively in the o zone are without a doubt some of the most important skills for talented forwards in the NHL these days. So I am somewhat worried that he wont be coached in a way to help harness/develop his quick decision making combined with good skating/movement in the o zone.
I think you also have to factor in that Leo has seemed increasingly frustrated by his lack of production. I think this runs deeper than changing his approach at this point. At this rate he might need a sports psychologist to help him mentally readjust. I mean him throwing his head back in frustration is entirely a him thing. The staff and his teammates can offer him support and encouragement, but the mental side of what's happening here. But I'd agree that something needs to change with the way he's being instructed to play. It's not working for him and I don't think it's conducive to maximizing his potential, or even just getting his game back on track, for the reasons you discussed.
 
I think you also have to factor in that Leo has seemed increasingly frustrated by his lack of production. I think this runs deeper than changing his approach at this point. At this rate he might need a sports psychologist to help him mentally readjust. I mean him throwing his head back in frustration is entirely a him thing. The staff and his teammates can offer him support and encouragement, but the mental side of what's happening here. But I'd agree that something needs to change with the way he's being instructed to play. It's not working for him and I don't think it's conducive to maximizing his potential, or even just getting his game back on track, for the reasons you discussed.

He is certainly to blame for some of his woes but he would not be struggling this much production wise if put in a better situation to succeed. I mentioned the Killorn thing in the GDT. 40+ games with a player and he finally pots one of your passes? There has been a lot of set ups from Leo. I mean come on man. Lol.
 
I think you also have to factor in that Leo has seemed increasingly frustrated by his lack of production. I think this runs deeper than changing his approach at this point. At this rate he might need a sports psychologist to help him mentally readjust. I mean him throwing his head back in frustration is entirely a him thing. The staff and his teammates can offer him support and encouragement, but the mental side of what's happening here. But I'd agree that something needs to change with the way he's being instructed to play. It's not working for him and I don't think it's conducive to maximizing his potential, or even just getting his game back on track, for the reasons you discussed.
It is difficult right, because one of the most translatable skills when entering the NHL is driving the net soon after gaining the zone and it can provide some success. The two goals scored by Leo's line against the Habs yesterday involved Leo getting to the net. On the first one he went deep to the corner carrying the puck in, passed up to Zelly at the point and then went to the net. The play started breaking down and Leo skated early into a good position near the wall, subsequently he gained control of the puck before the Habs could escape and passed quickly to McT below the goal. Again Leo went to the net front, and Mct joined him there after passing to Killorn. For the second goal the puck left the Habs zone and Leo skated back to retrieve it, he turned back towards the o zone and quickly made long pass through the neutral zone to Killorn near the blue line. Leo made a bee line for the net front, and started screening/causing chaos. So there can be positives taken by Leo learning how and when to drive to the net. However when looking at the entirety of the season one could say that it has not worked very often. I found some data that states the Ducks have scored 24 tipped/deflected goals, Leo has scored 5 of those. On the whole, I think using Leo as a net front presence is very uninspired, but ties into how Cronin keeps mentioning just getting shots on net. I just hope that at some point Leo is taught/instructed/allowed to move off the net front to find space and support play before the Ducks start to lose control of the puck. Or perhaps not go to the net at all and hone proficiency in different areas of the o zone.
 
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It is difficult right, because one of the most translatable skills when entering the NHL is driving the net soon after gaining the zone and it can provide some success. The two goals scored by Leo's line against the Habs yesterday involved Leo getting to the net. On the first one he went deep to the corner carrying the puck in, passed up to Zelly at the point and then went to the net. The play started breaking down and Leo skated early into a good position near the wall, subsequently he gained control of the puck before the Habs could escape and passed quickly to McT below the goal. Again Leo went to the net front, and Mct joined him there after passing to Killorn. For the second goal the puck left the Habs zone and Leo skated back to retrieve it, he turned back towards the o zone and quickly made long pass through the neutral zone to Killorn near the blue line. Leo made a bee line for the net front, and started screening/causing chaos. So there can be positives taken by Leo learning how and when to drive to the net. However when looking at the entirety of the season one could say that it has not worked very often. I found some data that states the Ducks have scored 24 tipped/deflected goals, Leo has scored 5 of those. On the whole, I think using Leo as a net front presence is very uninspired, but ties into how Cronin keeps mentioning just getting shots on net. I just hope that at some point Leo is taught/instructed/allowed to move off the net front to find space and support play before the Ducks start to lose control of the puck. Or perhaps not go to the net at all and hone proficiency in different areas of the o zone.

In a way, it's similar to Mac. Mac's got soft, quick hands and a booming shot. He's one of the few that can pot severe angle shots on the PP, but PP coach Clune loves putting Mac in front of the net. We've seen recently that Mac can snipe on break aways, but also when crashing the net, he has quick processing with his soft hands to maneuver around a goalie to pot goals.

We're pigeon-holing our offensive players to play only one way instead of having a variety of ways to score. Mac helped Vatrano and Strome score a lot of goals in transition than dump & chance. Why Cronin moved Mac away from Vatrano and Strome to make Strome a center feels derelict to the youth growth of playing center, either for Mac or Zegras or both!
 
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In a way, it's similar to Mac. Mac's got soft, quick hands and a booming shot. He's one of the few that can pot severe angle shots on the PP, but PP coach Clune loves putting Mac in front of the net. We've seen recently that Mac can snipe on break aways, but also when crashing the net, he has quick processing with his soft hands to maneuver around a goalie to pot goals.

We're pigeon-holing our offensive players to play only one way instead of having a variety of ways to score. Mac helped Vatrano and Strome score a lot of goals in transition than dump & chance. Why Cronin moved Mac away from Vatrano and Strome to make Strome a center feels derelict to the youth growth of playing center, either for Mac or Zegras or both!
 

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