News Article: Lebreton...UPDATE - Agreement made with NCC.

[Relapsing]

Remember idiots here that were saying that the team could move. Ahhh good times

... I just remember people talking about trainyards being an amazing location.

I kid, I kid.

Yeah, this could be very problematic. How stable is the land there?

You’d have to think that during the first go around with Melnyk/Ruddy that there are tests that were done. Enough tests to propose what they wanted to build , one would think.

Having 60 school buses two or three nights a week, à la RedBlacks is probably something that will be done on a smaller scale. Maybe park and rides from the govt lots near Rochester/Booth, or any lots nearby. That could remove some pressure.

If I were part of the design process, I would definitely design a LRT entrance to possibly the bottom of the arena, like Penn Station/MSG . A track that goes back and forth from Bayview.

I would also design a Sens World that is weather proof , maybe a clear , retractable roof area , a 400 x 400 area or something like that where in snow storms you can still have a functional entertainment area that is covered from the elements .

I think they are going to have some interesting sketching designs . And I really liked what Cyril said , if I understood correctly, in that they don’t want to open the arena around a mud pit, rather a more cohesive opening of “everything “ ready around the same time.

The site is limestone bedrock with a range of overburden depth.

Some of the towers on the east side of the site have 5 underground stories.

 

[coladin]

There is also a First Nations negotiation ongoing , which will be interesting.

 

[Relapsing]

There is also a First Nations negotiation ongoing , which will be interesting.

I hope that they're able to be an important partner in this and other development projects on the flats.

What a unique opportunity for the Anishinaabe to have a significant cultural impact on a major development project in the capital. I would be over the moon if the Senators embraced this wholeheartedly.

 

[Stylizer1]

This is a project that is like no other. And, the developers are the teams partners. They can do whatever they want to make this work. I would have no problem to have allocated 1000 parking spaces in each of the three buildings or however many needed. This is a long term solution that has limited acreage for the said facility. Believe me., I am very familiar with affordable housing and how the CHMC approves projects for affordable housing.

No, this is a project like every other. It's not like they are changing zoning by-laws because Ottawa construction is on the new frontier of design. There is a difference between renters and home owners. Renters tend to have less cars while owners tend to have more. If people can drop lets say $750,000 for a condo they most likely are going to own at least 1 automobile. Now, each one of those parking spaces is going to be worth a considerable amount of money to the developer which will be included into the price of the condo. That could be anywhere from 20-30,000$ per spot. Also not every apartment will have a designated parking spot. Now if we are talking about Retail/business parking that's a different story. TD place has 24,000 seats but only has 1000 parking spots. The world exchange plaza downtown is a multilevel parking garage. It only has 1100 spots. The War museum only has 230. Lets say you have 4, 30 story residential buildings each with 800 residents and 500 spaces, I can guarantee at least every second unit has a car. Also being so close to the Ottawa river and its propensity to flood every spring there is only so deep they can go while having to incorporate sewage lines. Downtown Ottawa is higher and primarily made of bedrock.

 

[Cosmix]

Not EB EDDY/Domtar… there were various industrial situated on Lebreton Flats, and they are long gone and mostly forgotten…. The taxpayer will end up footing the bill for soil mitigation.

The ‘Ugly’ History of LeBreton Flats - Ottawa Life Magazine

Chaudiere falls in the early 1800s, with an empty Lebreton flats in the background. - Toronto Refere...

www.ottawalife.com

Read that and other references in it. Very interesting and informative. Thanks for that!

Hope not Montreal has a bigger first bowl, more rows of seats. which makes the upper bowls further from the ice, when I was there.
I’ve sat in upper and lower on Montreal, prefer Ottawa’s
They have mentioned they want seats even closer though on the new arena.

Hopefully the "lower bowl" will not be below the water level in the spring!

 

[Stylizer1]

For anyone who is curious, TD Garden offers a model similar to what we might expect. Heavily dependant on public transit, few parking lots nearby.

The largest parking lot is directly under the arena and it has 1755 spots. TD Garden is built on only 3.2 acres.

So assuming the budget was there a parking complex under a 10 acre plot could accommodate perhaps 5,000 vehicles, or 1 in 4 patrons.

At $40 per vehicle that would generate $200k per game or $8M per year off hockey alone. Multiply by X for other events + day parking and it would seem it could pay itself off quite quickly.

Where did you get that number from 1755? Wiki says 800. If you add the surrounding parking lots then 1755 sounds right.

 

[Cosmix]

It was 50 million like 8-10 years ago.

Very expensive.

Does anyone know what the land would be worth if it were not contaminated?

 

[Cosmix]

Just researched a bit and the polluter pays mantra is often enforced by the federal government but considering the NCC has been sitting on the land since the 60's (and contamination of the site has been a known issue since then) I would assume that ship has sailed.

The challenge would be compounded by the historical patchwork of polluters that existed over the entire site. On top of that, most if not all don't exist anymore, not many that I recognize anyway.

I don't see EB Eddy on the historical maps. Not sure if they operated on Lebreton proper but they don't show up anywhere on the "Former Industrial Sites" map and "Former Industrial Uses" table.

Interestingly, the company that used to occupy the spot where the stadium will be is the Okeefe Brewing Co. The stadium would also sit on former CP Rail land. Both are low impact polluters.

Most heavy polluters (gas stations, foundries and other metallurgical stuff) were concentrated north around the centre of Lebreton or toward the current war museum. The exception to that is a paint company which was near the NE corner of Preston and Albert, reasonably close to the arena site and a landfill to the west.

City of Ottawa used the specific area for snow dumping which introduces contaminants...

The good news for everyone is that the open aqueduct passed right by the arena site so any contaminants probably hitched a ride right into the Ottawa river and spread far and wide for more people to enjoy.

LINK: https://ncc-website-2.s3.amazonaws.com/documents/LeBreton-Flats-Plan-1997-EN.pdf

I once had a very nice dinner at The Mill Restaurant many years ago.

 

[mysens]

No, this is a project like every other. It's not like they are changing zoning by-laws because Ottawa construction is on the new frontier of design. There is a difference between renters and home owners. Renters tend to have less cars while owners tend to have more. If people can drop lets say $750,000 for a condo they most likely are going to own at least 1 automobile. Now, each one of those parking spaces is going to be worth a considerable amount of money to the developer which will be included into the price of the condo. That could be anywhere from 20-30,000$ per spot. Also not every apartment will have a designated parking spot. Now if we are talking about Retail/business parking that's a different story. TD place has 24,000 seats but only has 1000 parking spots. The world exchange plaza downtown is a multilevel parking garage. It only has 1100 spots. The War museum only has 230. Lets say you have 4, 30 story residential buildings each with 800 residents and 500 spaces, I can guarantee at least every second unit has a car. Also being so close to the Ottawa river and its propensity to flood every spring there is only so deep they can go while having to incorporate sewage lines. Downtown Ottawa is higher and primarily made of bedrock.

Ummmmm. Affordable housing usually means renters. When applying for a CHMC insured mortgage with highly attractive interest rates for the builder, the affordable housing grant is honored due to below market rents. I am under the impression that the bulk of the project is going to be rental units. Therefore, lots of valet parking for the spectators who want to drive and can afford the fee for valet.

Very expensive.

Does anyone know what the land would be worth if it were not contaminated?

For that type of location, probably about 1.5 to 2 million per acre.

 

[PlayersLtd]

This is exactly what I was implying above....the clean up and the value of the land could be close to a wash. Your thinking is on par with what the Sens are going to do. We all need to remember this land has been vacant for more than half a century due to its contamination. So this is also a win for the NCC to get rid of it.


This is a great breakdown of how this can be a money-maker for the owners.....Valet etc, and I would bet that its going to be more than $40.

Yeah, I went conservative. It's $80 at TD Garden. Then again you probably don't fill every spot every event.

 

[HoweHullOrr]

For anyone who is curious, TD Garden offers a model similar to what we might expect. Heavily dependant on public transit, few parking lots nearby.

The largest parking lot is directly under the arena and it has 1755 spots. TD Garden is built on only 3.2 acres.

So assuming the budget was there a parking complex under a 10 acre plot could accommodate perhaps 5,000 vehicles, or 1 in 4 patrons.

At $40 per vehicle that would generate $200k per game or $8M per year off hockey alone. Multiply by X for other events + day parking and it would seem it could pay itself off quite quickly.

Doesn’t the City of Ottawa own land adjacent/close to Lebreton arena site? Maybe they want generate revenue from parking? Parking garages could be located a few miles away and buses used to shuttle fans to the arena. Got to think there’s many ways of handling this, and that there’s other examples in other cities on how this was handled.

 

[IpsoPostFacto]

Not EB EDDY/Domtar… there were various industrial situated on Lebreton Flats, and they are long gone and mostly forgotten…. The taxpayer will end up footing the bill for soil mitigation.

The ‘Ugly’ History of LeBreton Flats - Ottawa Life Magazine

Chaudiere falls in the early 1800s, with an empty Lebreton flats in the background. - Toronto Refere...

www.ottawalife.com

Nice story in Ottawa life.

For some reason I had it it my head that the land was expropriated in order to build something of national importance - i.e museums etc. and was a little amused that we kicked people out their homes, let it sit for 60 years, and now are building homes again.

Now I see that Dief wanted to build ... a DND campus and highways. sigh. That would have been pleasant. Reminds me of the idea behind moving the trains station out of the core because the future was highways.

 

[thinkwild]

I remember there used to be these portables down in the flats used by gov't workers. Similar to the ones their kids used in school except bigger i guess. Then for a while there was also a big parking lot down there that downtown workers could park at and walk back up the hill to work. Having parked there, i realize that the new old me wont be thinking that is walking distance to downtown anymore. And having parked at the NAC underground parking and left after a show, i shudder at the thought of similar garages at LeBreton. I guess there would be less spots than at the CTC now but it might take just as long to get out depending on how that is designed. Hopefully the architects and planners can get this right. Seems like a tricky task.

 

[Stylizer1]

Ummmmm. Affordable housing usually means renters. When applying for a CHMC insured mortgage with highly attractive interest rates for the builder, the affordable housing grant is honored due to below market rents. I am under the impression that the bulk of the project is going to be rental units. Therefore, lots of valet parking for the spectators who want to drive and can afford the fee for valet.


For that type of location, probably about 1.5 to 2 million per acre.

Affordable housing will make up a very small percentage of the units there. No one is spending Billions of dollars to rent out 2000, $1000, 2 bedroom apartments. These new builds will be condos with hefty monthly condo fee's. The condo fees alone would probably equal the cost of an affordable unit.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Affordable housing will make up a very small percentage of the units there. No one is spending Billions of dollars to rent out 2000, $1000, 2 bedroom apartments. These new builds will be condos with hefty monthly condo fee's. The condo fees alone would probably equal the cost of an affordable unit.

NCC said 25% if I recall.

 

[mysens]

Affordable housing will make up a very small percentage of the units there. No one is spending Billions of dollars to rent out 2000, $1000, 2 bedroom apartments. These new builds will be condos with hefty monthly condo fee's. The condo fees alone would probably equal the cost of an affordable unit.

They sure will spend billions when its offered at a no-cost finance. When CHMC offers you 0% financing on almost 90-100% of your total building cost for 10 years....you better believe they will make it work. All they have to do is offer 25% of their units as affordable housing. I have been through this process enough to know the golden egg that the crown corporation throws at you.

 

[PlayersLtd]

Doesn’t the City of Ottawa own land adjacent/close to Lebreton arena site? Maybe they want generate revenue from parking? Parking garages could be located a few miles away and buses used to shuttle fans to the arena. Got to think there’s many ways of handling this, and that there’s other examples in other cities on how this was handled.

Sure, Bayview Yards is now a perfect opportunity.

The stadium will have parking though and I would be surprised if it's above ground. Also, parking is big business and the Sens (or the NCC) would be remiss not to capitalize on it to the extent that they can finance it and fit it into their design.

This is the type of thing that I think the Sens could get the NCC to help on. A large parking lot doesn't fit into the NCC's vision for Lebreton but there's only so much pressure they can put on the Sens to assume the cost of going underground. So the Sens negotiate and get the NCC to contribute and the NCC justifies it by freeing up more land for development or park space and stick to their original vision. Sens get a federal hand out but for a design solution that benefits Lebreton. NCC pr machine makes it clear that it's more about sticking to a vision for Lebreton than it is for the team.

There are dozens of things like this where if the Sens are shrewd they could get the NCC to contribute and possibly keep their investment limited to the $500M arena alone and not the things such as infrasutructure and landscaping that would push the typical stadium project beyond $1B. Let the NCC have control of all that as they work to create a world class beacon of sustainability while the Sens focus their efforts on the landmark piece of architecture that will anchor the entire Lebreton development.

 

[Stylizer1]

They sure will spend billions when its offered at a no-cost finance. When CHMC offers you 0% financing on almost 90-100% of your total building cost for 10 years....you better believe they will make it work. All they have to do is offer 25% of their units as affordable housing. I have been through this process enough to know the golden egg that the crown corporation throws at you.

And how does this get back to parking? Lets say hypothetically there are 4000 units, 1000 which are affordable housing realistically how many of those will be available for gameday parking? Seeing as an average 15 story building holds about 400 - 500 tenants Each building might have 200 spots. I don't see extra parking by way of residential allotment practical. It would have to come from the commercial ventures and then I don't see the NCC making way for what goes against their mandate of reducing car traffic and fight climate change.

 

[Stylizer1]

Sure, Bayview Yards is now a perfect opportunity.

The stadium will have parking though and I would be surprised if it's above ground. Also, parking is big business and the Sens (or the NCC) would be remiss not to capitalize on it to the extent that they can finance it and fit it into their design.

This is the type of thing that I think the Sens could get the NCC to help on. A large parking lot doesn't fit into the NCC's vision for Lebreton but there's only so much pressure they can put on the Sens to assume the cost of going underground. So the Sens negotiate and get the NCC to contribute and the NCC justifies it by freeing up more land for development or park space and stick to their original vision. Sens get a federal hand out but for a design solution that benefits Lebreton. NCC pr machine makes it clear that it's more about sticking to a vision for Lebreton than it is for the team.

There are dozens of things like this where if the Sens are shrewd they could get the NCC to contribute and possibly keep their investment limited to the $500M arena alone and not the things such as infrasutructure and landscaping that would push the typical stadium project beyond $1B. Let the NCC have control of all that as they work to create a world class beacon of sustainability while the Sens focus their efforts on the landmark piece of architecture that will anchor the entire Lebreton development.

I can't see the NcC wanting any parking and it all going to have to built by the Sens.

 

[Stylizer1]

Where is the plot of land exactly?

 

[Cosmix]

Where is the plot of land exactly?

I already asked that Q but nobody provided a map.

 

[Stylizer1]

Dated 2020:

Claridge Homes plans 25- and 30-storey highrises near Ottawa’s LeBreton Flats - Ottawa | Globalnews.ca

An Ottawa-based home builder is moving ahead with its development plan previously approved by council, albeit with slight modifications.

globalnews.ca

This article can give us an idea of the issue at had.

The new proposal seeks to add a 25-storey condo building and a 30-storey rental apartment tower to the burgeoning East Flats community, which already includes two residential buildings eight and 13 storeys tall.

Combined, the two proposed buildings will add more than 600 housing units to the block bound by Lloyd, Fleet and Lett streets.

Claridge received council’s blessing in 2018 for the East Flats project — a development that will ultimately see nearly 2,000 residential units across five buildings as tall as 45 storeys — but the new proposal looks to build out the highrises in a different order.

The next phase of the development would include an underground parking garage with 347 vehicle parking spaces and 470 spots for bicycles.

If they are only talking about the 25 and 30 story buildings 347 parking spaces doesn't seem like a lot.

 

[PlayersLtd]

I can't see the NcC wanting any parking and it all going to have to built by the Sens.

The NCC expanded the available plot of land based on the Sens need for parking. It would be in bad faith for them to turn around and say it can't be above ground.

If you're the Sens, these are the inflexion points you leverage in a partnership with a common goal.

 

[Stylizer1]

The NCC expanded the available plot of land based on the Sens need for parking. It would be in bad faith for them to turn around and say it can't be above ground.

If you're the Sens, these are the inflexion points you leverage in a partnership with a common goal.

I was commenting on the notion that extra parking would come from the surrounding residential properties. In order to accommodate the amount of parking needed you would think it would have to be a combination underground and above ground parking.

 

[Sensfan5]

I have been buzzing all weekend since the announcement. Yes it will be a while yet but the fact that having to drive to Kanata will be a thing of the past is incredible.