Post-Game Talk: Leafs Lose 4-2 to Pittsburgh.

[PromisedLand]

Marner has to protect the puck, he’s making little mental errors that are costly. That said, it is quite telling, and frankly where I tune out people, how conveniently they rip Mitch while simultaneously absolving Matthews, who’s been disinterested dog shit for most of the season. You’re simply not a serious commentator here, it’s just agenda posting.

the issue is puck management. Matthews' offensive struggle doesn't bite Leafs on their ass defensively because he is responsible with the puck; Marner on the other hand...

 

[PromisedLand]

Yes, Shanahan is their responsibility. If they decide his performance is lacking then they replace him. His replacement then decides on everyone else's fate.

These are business people, they have no knowledge of sport and aren't qualified to make those decisions.

in business investing huge sums of money i expect some return after a few years. Rogers/ Bell expesne account has done nothing but grow under Shanahan/Dubas era (new analytics team, more AGMs than any other franchise, other costs, etc...) and return is 1st round exits.

even from business pov they should be canned. Heck if I owned Leafs and these were teh results I would have canned them by now

They play music at practice?

they were not sure if they are still doing it

 

[PromisedLand]

This makes me wonder if the players know/believe that the team just isn’t constructed properly to win.

if am not mistaken Leafs are the only team in the entire league that has 3 players with double digit AAV (cap hits). The players were rewarded with big money without any success in the playoffs and without any term (5 years for Matthews and 6 years for Marner).

there is no cap left to "construct" the team with quality depth both on offense or defense

 

[ACC1224]

in business investing huge sums of money i expect some return after a few years. Rogers/ Bell expesne account has done nothing but grow under Shanahan/Dubas era (new analytics team, more AGMs than any other franchise, other costs, etc...) and return is 1st round exits.

even from business pov they should be canned. Heck if I owned Leafs and these were teh results I would have canned them by now



they were not sure if they are still doing it

No idea if they are meeting their forecasted targets.

This makes me wonder if the players know/believe that the team just isn’t constructed properly to win.

Could very well be.

 

[andora]

in business investing huge sums of money i expect some return after a few years. Rogers/ Bell expesne account has done nothing but grow under Shanahan/Dubas era (new analytics team, more AGMs than any other franchise, other costs, etc...) and return is 1st round exits.

even from business pov they should be canned. Heck if I owned Leafs and these were teh results I would have canned them by now



they were not sure if they are still doing it

Ok played music in practices.. kind of a wtf for me

 

[Mess]

Leafs played a strong game and simply lost in a hard fought game.

Leafs goaltending likely the main reason behind the loss.

 

[DarkKnight]

the issue is puck management. Matthews' offensive struggle doesn't bite Leafs on their ass defensively because he is responsible with the puck; Marner on the other hand...

There are lots of issues for me, but yes Marner has to be more careful with the puck which I said too.

 

[Mopar]

Changes need to be made very soon before another season is wasted with this roster. It isn't working and it's time to admit that the rebuild is failed. The good news is the team doesn't need a complete tear down. This can be re-tooled for another shot with a lot of these players.

If they continue upon this path this will be another wasted season. Time to take a step back to take steps forward in the future.

We can debate who should be moved to free up cap space and who they should be replaced with. But we can't really debate that changes are needed at this point. This team just doesn't have it. It needs to be shaken up.

 

[Beaumaris]

Thanks. They certainly don't look like a happy team. Be nice if they could take their frustration out on an opponent once in a while.
Really tough team to like I find, from the top on down.

My thoughts exactly.

 

[rocketman588]

Accountability is an issue.

marner keeps making dumbheaded plays hardly ever gets disciplined. Nylander doesn't even make bad plays and he is send on the 3rd line just not to upset the matthews-marner duo.

marner was benched for one shift against the pos game that he had against the ducks giving away pucks with fancy bullshit and marner threw a hissy fit.

We need a coach with balls who does what is "right" for the team. Enough coddling the entitled players.

We had one and our GM undermined him and then fired him to hire his friend.

Coaching is only part of the issue

Our GM spends too much time trying to reinvent the game of hockey and treating the team like we're in the NBA and the only thing that matters is player happiness

 

[ULF_55]

Leafs played a strong game and simply lost in a hard fought game.

Leafs goaltending likely the main reason behind the loss.

Did not like the 3rd. goal.

Unfortunately, there are no ties in today's league.

Leafs at 2 goals were always going to lose this one.

 

[PromisedLand]

Changes need to be made very soon before another season is wasted with this roster. It isn't working and it's time to admit that the rebuild is failed. The good news is the team doesn't need a complete tear down. This can be re-tooled for another shot with a lot of these players.

If they continue upon this path this will be another wasted season. Time to take a step back to take steps forward in the future.

We can debate who should be moved to free up cap space and who they should be replaced with. But we can't really debate that changes are needed at this point. This team just doesn't have it. It needs to be shaken up.

The “change” needs to begin with management. Let new management make hockey decisions

I am already pretty steamed due to lack of accountability and pretty pedestrian effort last night.

My windows update is taking forever now at 11% after 1.5 hours is adding to my aggravation

Tonight if Canucks win i’m regulation am gonna effing lose it

Leafs played a strong game and simply lost in a hard fought game.

Leafs goaltending likely the main reason behind the loss.

no they didn’t. they showed up in 2nd period and that’s it. look at the HDCF% and SF%

 

[supermann_98]

Among forwards, yes. Pietrangelo has one more.

Matthews, Marner, and Rielly each have 17 giveaways this year. Only eight players in the league have more.

Kampf and Nylander lead the team in ratio of takeaways to giveaways (12-5 and 11-5 respectively).

Imagine having $11m or so to sign a guy like Pietrangelo when he was a UFA? Wonder where we could find that kinda cap space

 

[andora]

The “change” needs to begin with management. Let new management make hockey decisions

I am already pretty steamed due to lack of accountability and pretty pedestrian effort last night.

My windows update is taking forever now at 11% after 1.5 hours is adding to my aggravation

Tonight if Canucks win i’m regulation am gonna effing lose it



no they didn’t. they showed up in 2nd period and that’s it

View attachment 606871

Lol.. i love your posts.. i feel them

No continuity is what it looks like year to year game to game period to period and line to line / pairing to pairing

 

[stuart5035]

This team just isn't that good. Call it like it is.

Goaltending is weak. Not much to get excited about when the puck isn't on one of the Big 4's sticks. Way too many warm bodies in this lineup.

Rielly is frustrating to watch on the PP. Virtually no point shot unless it's a soft toss towards the net.

Marner dancing around, looking to make highlight reel plays, refusing to simplify his game for the 7th year in a row. His bullshit play is flat out costing us goals and games at this point.

Holl.....no comment needed. The replay of him flopping around awkwardly after he got caught on that goal tonight sums him up perfectly. Yet he continues to get ice time.

Keefe.....has this man EVER outcoached anyone is his 200 games behind the Leafs bench?? Pathetic.

I was having a hard time getting excited for this season during the off season and the moves that were made. 15 games into this season and my outlook was bang on.

This team just isn't that good. Call it like it is.

Goaltending is weak. Not much to get excited about when the puck isn't on one of the Big 4's sticks. Way too many warm bodies in this lineup.

Rielly is frustrating to watch on the PP. Virtually no point shot unless it's a soft toss towards the net.

Marner dancing around, looking to make highlight reel plays, refusing to simplify his game for the 7th year in a row. His bullshit play is flat out costing us goals and games at this point.

Holl.....no comment needed. The replay of him flopping around awkwardly after he got caught on that goal tonight sums him up perfectly. Yet he continues to get ice time.

Keefe.....has this man EVER outcoached anyone is his 200 games behind the Leafs bench?? Pathetic.

I was having a hard time getting excited for this season during the off season and the moves that were made. 15 games into this season and my outlook was bang on.

How about a different take:

The players do care, it’s called pride in what they do, we all normally have this in us.

I see them trying, I see them skating hard, I see them frustrated.

What if the problem is that there is a book out there on the Leafs, that would make sense, as they have been playing the same way for years. It’s called clog the middle, take away the slot, use big tough defence men to form a ring around the goalie (and most teams have big strong such types). Because the Leaf forwards are either smurfs who will never penetrate (Malgin, Robertson, Kerfoot) or they are dainty and avoid the abuse (Nylander, Marner). Let them have their possession stats, and their fancy perimeter maneuvers.

Ever notice how enemy forwards swarm our fragile small defence, plastering them against the boards? Ever notice the difference with our forwards, do they crash and bang the enemy?

Is it possible that’s the real problem-the team has been neutered, not because of a lack of talent (we have that in spades), not because of a lack of desire and hard work-but because the construction is flawed?

Isn’t management the problem?

I fear we are in for a year of watching 3-2 games, often on the wrong end. As Jeff O’Neill, the hockey analyst said last night, “this isn’t the same team anymore”.

Has Matthews realized this and just lost his passion?

 

[Stephen]

Leafs played a strong game and simply lost in a hard fought game.

Leafs goaltending likely the main reason behind the loss.

I think you're right in the first instance, but it looked like a hard fought game by a team with no gamebreakers on the Leafs and not the most inspiring special teams. Maybe they are just a middle of the pack team and all of our star players are not having a career year with some key injuries.

Feels like we followed the Winnipeg Jets trajectory and kind of drifted off that championship course. My question now is what happens or doesn't happen?

 

[PromisedLand]

How about a different take:

The players do care, it’s called pride in what they do, we all normally have this in us.

I see them trying, I see them skating hard, I see them frustrated.

What if the problem is that there is a book out there on the Leafs, that would make sense, as they have been playing the same way for years. It’s called clog the middle, take away the slot, use big tough defence men to form a ring around the goalie (and most teams have big strong such types). Because the Leaf forwards are either smurfs who will never penetrate (Malgin, Robertson, Kerfoot) or they are dainty and avoid the abuse (Nylander, Marner). Let them have their possession stats, and their fancy perimeter maneuvers.

Ever notice how enemy forwards swarm our fragile small defence, plastering them against the boards? Ever notice the difference with our forwards, do they crash and bang the enemy?

Is it possible that’s the real problem-the team has been neutered, not because of a lack of talent (we have that in spades), not because of a lack of desire and hard work-but because the construction is flawed?

Isn’t management the problem?

I fear we are in for a year of watching 3-2 games, often on the wrong end. As Jeff O’Neill, the hockey analyst said last night, “this isn’t the same team anymore”.

Has Matthews realized this and just lost his passion?

Matthews leads the team in hits. When he gets cross checked or hit there is no response from the team.

Was it the 2nd or 3rd game matthews got cross checked on the hips and no one did anything.

Also what if Gio was not on ice against Philly? Matthews would have been jumped

This team is soft as butter. You are right in assessing that Leafs play fancy perimeter hockey and opposition. let’s them taking away the slot

Talent without work ethic and hard work is not useful in NHL. This isn’t Soo this is NHL

Will before Skill else success won’t come your way. It’s gotta be the team mentality not individuals

 

[ToneDog]

Changes need to be made very soon before another season is wasted with this roster. It isn't working and it's time to admit that the rebuild is failed. The good news is the team doesn't need a complete tear down. This can be re-tooled for another shot with a lot of these players.

If they continue upon this path this will be another wasted season. Time to take a step back to take steps forward in the future.

We can debate who should be moved to free up cap space and who they should be replaced with. But we can't really debate that changes are needed at this point. This team just doesn't have it. It needs to be shaken up.

Imagine if we could get two blue chip top 5 prospect and two firsts for Matty and two blue chip top 5 prospects and one first and perhaps a second for Marner and $20m in cap space. Would we be better off taking a step back to take a few forward or is it better to keep running this core back every year after changing the supporting cast in the off season.

I was so optimistic after they lost to the Caps but once the keys were handed to the rookie, it has been downhill since. What a shame.

 

[Stephen]

How about a different take:

The players do care, it’s called pride in what they do, we all normally have this in us.

I see them trying, I see them skating hard, I see them frustrated.

What if the problem is that there is a book out there on the Leafs, that would make sense, as they have been playing the same way for years. It’s called clog the middle, take away the slot, use big tough defence men to form a ring around the goalie (and most teams have big strong such types). Because the Leaf forwards are either smurfs who will never penetrate (Malgin, Robertson, Kerfoot) or they are dainty and avoid the abuse (Nylander, Marner). Let them have their possession stats, and their fancy perimeter maneuvers.

Ever notice how enemy forwards swarm our fragile small defence, plastering them against the boards? Ever notice the difference with our forwards, do they crash and bang the enemy?

Is it possible that’s the real problem-the team has been neutered, not because of a lack of talent (we have that in spades), not because of a lack of desire and hard work-but because the construction is flawed?

Isn’t management the problem?

I fear we are in for a year of watching 3-2 games, often on the wrong end. As Jeff O’Neill, the hockey analyst said last night, “this isn’t the same team anymore”.

Has Matthews realized this and just lost his passion?

I think this current Leaf build looks very stale and the offseason was a missed opportunity to inject some momentum and energy in the program, if not to make structural adjustments. Shanahan/Dubas just seem like they were too in love with their vision and treated the core group like this one precious asset instead of bringing on the gradual changes every core experiences over the years and now this group feels like it's past its best before date.

The system is stale, the body types required to supporting roles is not diversified. They defense is just a poorly constructed collection of warm bodies and we're onto our 5th string goalie vs Vancouver on Saturday.

As far as Matthews losing his passion? He's the engine that makes this work, so he's really not holding up his end of the bargain with this mediocre season long malaise. He's been a true gamebreaker in one game (Boston).

 

[hockeyes]

Matthews leads the team in hits. When he gets cross checked or hit there is no response from the team.

Was it the 2nd or 3rd game matthews got cross checked on the hips and no one did anything.

Also what if Gio was not on ice against Philly? Matthews would have been jumped

This team is soft as butter. You are right in assessing that Leafs play fancy perimeter hockey and opposition. let’s them taking away the slot

Talent without work ethic and hard work is not useful in NHL. This isn’t Soo this is NHL

Will before Skill else success won’t come your way. It’s gotta be the team mentality not individuals

But why would the Kerfoots and the Engvalls on the team care if Matthews gets wrecked? The players all know if they elevate their game and play extra hard, the reward is getting shipped off somewhere else, the organization has zero room to accommodate anyone breaking out or playing beyond their current contract. Unless you are already getting paid, you have no reason to care about this team or the big money guys.

 

[PromisedLand]

But why would the Kerfoots and the Engvalls on the team care if Matthews gets wrecked? The players all know if they elevate their game and play extra hard, the reward is getting shipped off somewhere else, the organization has zero room to accommodate anyone breaking out or playing beyond their current contract. Unless you are already getting paid, you have no reason to care about this team or the big money guys.

I would assume at least in the interest of self benefit as pending UFAs they will work hard to earn a solid next contract. Doesn’t seem to be the case. IMO it all boils down to accountability

The coach holds some players accountable and others not

If they can’t get equal pay they at least hope for equal treatment and standards

Good hockey franchises are built that way
1) Character
2) Accountability
3) One for all and all for one attitude

Thé culture that has been fostered by Dubas is the primary reason IMO for the Leafs’ failures

 

[leafsfan5]

Changes need to be made very soon before another season is wasted with this roster. It isn't working and it's time to admit that the rebuild is failed. The good news is the team doesn't need a complete tear down. This can be re-tooled for another shot with a lot of these players.

If they continue upon this path this will be another wasted season. Time to take a step back to take steps forward in the future.

We can debate who should be moved to free up cap space and who they should be replaced with. But we can't really debate that changes are needed at this point. This team just doesn't have it. It needs to be shaken up.

This season will likely be a waste, it's something we're going to have to accept. Just let it play out the way it is and make your decisions in the offseason

A re-tool can't happen until the offseason, a management change won't happen until then either. So we're kind of stuck here. Just hope that this team somehow figures it out come playoff time

 

[PromisedLand]

I think this current Leaf build looks very stale and the offseason was a missed opportunity to inject some momentum and energy in the program, if not to make structural adjustments. Shanahan/Dubas just seem like they were too in love with their vision and treated the core group like this one precious asset instead of bringing on the gradual changes every core experiences over the years and now this group feels like it's past its best before date.

The system is stale, the body types required to supporting roles is not diversified. They defense is just a poorly constructed collection of warm bodies and we're onto our 5th string goalie vs Vancouver on Saturday.

As far as Matthews losing his passion? He's the engine that makes this work, so he's really not holding up his end of the bargain with this mediocre season long malaise. He's been a true gamebreaker in one game (Boston).

the one game where Matthews and Marner duo was broken

 

[Apex Predator]

How about a different take:

The players do care, it’s called pride in what they do, we all normally have this in us.

I see them trying, I see them skating hard, I see them frustrated.

What if the problem is that there is a book out there on the Leafs, that would make sense, as they have been playing the same way for years. It’s called clog the middle, take away the slot, use big tough defence men to form a ring around the goalie (and most teams have big strong such types). Because the Leaf forwards are either smurfs who will never penetrate (Malgin, Robertson, Kerfoot) or they are dainty and avoid the abuse (Nylander, Marner). Let them have their possession stats, and their fancy perimeter maneuvers.

Ever notice how enemy forwards swarm our fragile small defence, plastering them against the boards? Ever notice the difference with our forwards, do they crash and bang the enemy?

Is it possible that’s the real problem-the team has been neutered, not because of a lack of talent (we have that in spades), not because of a lack of desire and hard work-but because the construction is flawed?

Isn’t management the problem?

I fear we are in for a year of watching 3-2 games, often on the wrong end. As Jeff O’Neill, the hockey analyst said last night, “this isn’t the same team anymore”.

Has Matthews realized this and just lost his passion?

They could treat this as a job. We all have employees that don’t care, come in, do bare minimum and get paid.

 

[PromisedLand]

This season will likely be a waste, it's something we're going to have to accept. Just let it play out the way it is and make your decisions in the offseason

A re-tool can't happen until the offseason, a management change won't happen until then either. So we're kind of stuck here. Just hope that this team somehow figures it out come playoff time

this is where i don’t agree. Leafs need to get new management in so at the TDL we have grown ups and competent management group managing the sale of pending UFAs and get assets