Proposal: Leafs-Ducks

[imbatman]

How about just the opinion of an actual scout?

Corey Pronman had Brandon Montour ranked at 118 and DeAngelo ranked at 104.

How about all the baggage that Deangelo has?

 

[Sojourn]

How about just the opinion of an actual scout?

Corey Pronman had Brandon Montour ranked at 118 and DeAngelo ranked at 104.

Relatively meaningless, at those spots. The difference between 100 and 120 is likely pretty small. Who knows why Pronman valued DeAngelo higher? Maybe he's optimistic about DeAngelo's developmental curve. A 14 spot difference, after 100 prospects? Not really a strong argument.

Prospect rankings vary greatly from person to person. How much do you value potential? How much do you value current play? How much does age factor into the rankings?

 

[Ducks Nation*]

How about just the opinion of an actual scout?

Corey Pronman had Brandon Montour ranked at 118 and DeAngelo ranked at 104.

 

[scan15*]

How about all the baggage that Deangelo has?

Even without the issues, DeAngelo would still be a very flawed prospect deserving of a low ranking, just like Montour.

At least DeAngelo has 2 more years to figure out his defensive game. Montour and the Ducks don't have the luxury of time because he's going to be waiver eligible next season.

 

[scan15*]

Relatively meaningless, at those spots. The difference between 100 and 120 is likely pretty small. Who knows why Pronman valued DeAngelo higher? Maybe he's optimistic about DeAngelo's developmental curve. A 14 spot difference, after 100 prospects? Not really a strong argument.

Prospect rankings vary greatly from person to person. How much do you value potential? How much do you value current play? How much does age factor into the rankings?

My point is that they are comparable prospects and the return Tampa got for him.

Montour is older and loses his waiver exempt status next season.

 

[Apotheosis]

I do it in a heartbeat. I rate Montour very highly and he's better than Carrick for me.

 

[4thline]

It's a pity Babs loves Hunwick so much. Hunwick for Stoner+ makes too much sense

 

[Sojourn]

My point is that they are comparable prospects and the return Tampa got for him.

Montour is older and loses his waiver exempt status next season.

You say older like it's a bad thing. Prospects develop at different rates. The fact that Montour has continued to improve at the rate he has, despite being a little older, is still impressive. It still makes him a better player now. You can't assume a player will continue to develop at the same rate as they age, and in Montour's case, there is no need to assume. He's done it. Age is only a negative if all things are equal. They aren't. Montour is currently better. By a respectable margin too, I think.

I suspect a team would pay more for Montour because he is less of a risk. He's more refined, and a better player right now. You have to hope, with DeAngelo, and he's far from a sure thing. And I'm not suggesting Montour is, but if I had to bet on who would be the better defenseman in the NHL? It's the guy who is currently better, and is knocking on the door on a pretty good team.

Edit: And yes, Montour is pretty clearly better. A 14 point difference, in 1 less game, is huge. Especially when you consider what the AHL scoring looked like.

 

[scan15*]

I do it in a heartbeat. I rate Montour very highly and he's better than Carrick for me.

I wouldn't be so sure. Carrick actually had a better even strength primary points per game than Montour in 15-16. Though Montour was better was PP primary point per game.

If anything, the only interest in Montour would be as a 3rd pair PP specialist. I'd take Carrick when it comes to top 4 potential.

 

[scan15*]

You say older like it's a bad thing. Prospects develop at different rates. The fact that Montour has continued to improve at the rate he has, despite being a little older, is still impressive. It still makes him a better player now. You can't assume a player will continue to develop at the same rate as they age, and in Montour's case, there is no need to assume. He's done it. Age is only a negative if all things are equal. They aren't. Montour is currently better. By a respectable margin too, I think.

I suspect a team would pay more for Montour because he is less of a risk. He's more refined, and a better player right now. You have to hope, with DeAngelo, and he's far from a sure thing. And I'm not suggesting Montour is, but if I had to bet on who would be the better defenseman in the NHL? It's the guy who is currently better, and is knocking on the door on a pretty good team.

Edit: And yes, Montour is pretty clearly better. A 14 point difference, in 1 less game, is huge. Especially when you consider what the AHL scoring looked like.

And they say leafs fans overvalue their prospects.

Anyway, hope Montour works out for you guys and I hope it happens soon or else you're gonna lose him on waivers next season.

 

[Sojourn]

And they say leafs fans overvalue their prospects.

Anyway, hope Montour works out for you guys and I hope it happens soon or else you're gonna lose him on waivers next season.

They do.

Did you see me calling him some elite prospect? A top pairing quality defenseman? No? Because I didn't. In fact, everything I said about Montour relates to what he has actually done. There was very little projecting there, which is the only argument for DeAngelo at this point. That also seems to be your argument: DeAngelo is an equivalent prospect because he's younger. That's it, right? 2 years is enough, in your eyes, to justify the difference in play. But DeAngelo still needs to actually keep improving, and at a respectable rate. You dismissed the point difference, but 14 points for a defenseman is a rather large gap. Even in the AHL. And he also wasn't the huge negative player that DeAngelo was.

 

[jaric1862]

All these ducks fans who hate this deal, how do you guys see yourself clearing space? with what sort of deal? you think your going to get some sort of " good" value for handing off the amazing contract that stoner has? you guys are going to be dealing out of a weak point in any deal and the biggest asset you are getting in any deal would be cap space (which is the point). You guys are going to have to deal one of Fowler or Stoner+Prospect/pick(s) so take your pick at which one.

 

[lindholmie]

So called 'Blue Chip' prospect Brandon Montour is on the same level as prospects like Anthony DeAngelo.

Someone remind these ducks fans how much the Lightning got for DeAngelo. But make sure to remind them that DeAngelo is also 2 years younger than the great Blue Chip prospect Montour.

Right now, I'd say Montour has a 10% chance of turning into a decent player and about 90% chance of being a career AHLer.

wasnt he suspended for saying a buncha ****? lmao

 

[Static]

90% of a career AHLer. Now get off my porch!

 

[Halla]

So waiver wire and 3rd for cap dump for one year and blue ship prospect? Ducks will decline.

Leivo has never been waived...also one year? stoner has another year there bud, and anaheim isnt signing lindholm until he is gone.

stoner is worth a negative 2nd and 3rd/4th.

I'd offer Leivo and a 2nd for Stoner and Montour and leave it at that.

 

[imbatman]

wasnt he suspended for saying a buncha ****? lmao

He was also a healthy scratch 8 games last year. But somehow he's the barometer for Montour's value.

 

[Dr Johnny Fever]

I like this deal.

Montour would give us another RHD, and his career numbers in the AHL are much better than Carricks. 0.82 to 0.54 ppg.

Yes, we would have to move someone to do this, Hunwick maybe.... Montour to the AHL for the year. Stoner gets exposed in the expansion draft, and I wouldn't doubt if he'd be our guy to get picked off.

I'm sorry Ducks fans, you've got to make some moves, and there are only a limited number of guys you can move, to be able to sign Lindholm, and not seriously hurt the team. Everybody knows that.

When is it going to be important to get Lindholm back? When you are 1-3-1? 1-4-1 after Vancouver? 5 points after 10 games....

Ah, yes, the old Toronto magic. Comes in as a cap dump and leaves as a desired pick in the expansion draft, while still overpaid by the amount making him a current cap dump. Gotta love how TOR fans don't over rate their players.

 

[Spazkat]

He was also a healthy scratch 8 games last year. But somehow he's the barometer for Montour's value.

From the looks of it the kid has some major problems with attitude. Multiple juniors suspensions for slurs directed *at his own teammates*. IIRC he also spent a bunch of tie parked in the pressbox with his AHL tam for attitude and work ethic. He may have started out a blue chip prospect, but at this point he's questionable at best. Hardly a comparable for Montour

 

[Pennaduck]

All these ducks fans who hate this deal, how do you guys see yourself clearing space? with what sort of deal? you think your going to get some sort of " good" value for handing off the amazing contract that stoner has? you guys are going to be dealing out of a weak point in any deal and the biggest asset you are getting in any deal would be cap space (which is the point). You guys are going to have to deal one of Fowler or Stoner+Prospect/pick(s) so take your pick at which one.

For the immediate future, Thompson and Despres can be put on LTIR. That, in addition to demoting Stoner and Larsson gets us about 6.5 million in cap space. Not that this is real cap space, since it is all based off of LTIR which is a daily savings, not an overall cap decrease, but it should be enough to get Lindholm signed in the short term while a deal was worked out.

There will be a move of some kind to clear actual cap space in the next few weeks as Murray and Lindholm finalize a deal. I'd wager it will be a combination of LTIRing Thompson and Despres, and moving either Stoner with something of decent value as a sweetener. The debate over what value of sweetener you need to add to move Stoner has been ongoing all summer, but there is no reason to assume that Stoner's value is so negative that packaging him with a good asset won't net us more than a low pick in return. I think something similar to the OP could be in the works, but I would be shocked if Murray doesn't try to move any number of other picks/prospects before offering one of Montour/Larsson/Theodore to move Stoner. If one of those D prospects was in fact included in a deal with Stoner, I would expect something of value in return. Not just a mid round pick. And I suspect it would have been done well before the season started.

What we do know is that Murray signed players this offseason, and just finished a big new deal for Rakell recently, and while some of his signings are highly questionable, he would not have spent money like that if there wasn't something already agreed to in principle or at least somewhat on the table with another team to help us clear cap. Him signing new players and re-signing Rakell to a non-bridge deal only makes sense if he has other plans in the works. Otherwise it is career suicide for him to be no negligent to our cap and budget issues. That is why Ducks fans aren't really sweating the details or worried that we are about to lose a very good prospect as part of a cap dump.

as a personal opinion though, I would much rather have to swallow a deal like Stoner and Montour for cap space and a pick or prospect, than see us trade Fowler. It's not that I am not high on Montour, or any of our D prospects. I just don't see the point in moving Fowler to sign Lindholm when you can move a prospect and have Fowler and Lindholm in your lineup each night.

 

[Fogelhund]

Ah, yes, the old Toronto magic. Comes in as a cap dump and leaves as a desired pick in the expansion draft, while still overpaid by the amount making him a current cap dump. Gotta love how TOR fans don't over rate their players.

Nowhere have I suggested he isn't a valuable player... certainly not a $3.25 mil player, but he's useful. But, for you guys, you have to dump cap, and he is the most obvious target. For the money, he brings the least to the table. To other teams, he isn't worth trading for at that cap hit... not worth giving up valuable assets, and yes, in the cap world you are going to have to pay for people to take him right now...

But an expansion team. He's an ok D man, and would help them get to the Cap floor...

..and if not, we'd keep him for a year, no need to jump about and down with the drama... and given some of these threads, and the value some Anaheim is going to get, casting off players to get cap compliant, you are accusing other fanbases of over rating players... now that is ultra rich.

 

[Dr Johnny Fever]

Nowhere have I suggested he isn't a valuable player... certainly not a $3.25 mil player, but he's useful. But, for you guys, you have to dump cap, and he is the most obvious target. For the money, he brings the least to the table. To other teams, he isn't worth trading for at that cap hit... not worth giving up valuable assets, and yes, in the cap world you are going to have to pay for people to take him right now...

But an expansion team. He's an ok D man, and would help them get to the Cap floor...

..and if not, we'd keep him for a year, no need to jump about and down with the drama... and given some of these threads, and the value some Anaheim is going to get, casting off players to get cap compliant, you are accusing other fanbases of over rating players... now that is ultra rich.

I never said he wasn't a cap dump. You're the one who saw his value improve by going to TOR.

 

[DANTHEMAN1967]

No kidding, but throwing in one of our best D prospects to get that space? Pass.

Every fan wants to gouge Anaheim. Fine. But don't try to rinse off a petrified piece of crap and sell it to us as something else. You aren't going to get Montour for a song.

The song that Anaheim fans are singing is "Money for Nothing" (by Dire Straits) but the rest of the league doesn't agree. The Duck's "Money" (Stoner's contract) is going to cost (a first rounder or a good D prospect).

 

[Exit Dose]

The song that Anaheim fans are singing is "Money for Nothing" (by Dire Straits) but the rest of the league doesn't agree. The Duck's "Money" (Stoner's contract) is going to cost (a first rounder or a good D prospect).

What a timely reference.

 

[Ricky Bobby]

With all the money we can put on LTIR we could do it easily

Leafs could do it but putting guys on LTIR to create more room this season would severely limit their cap options in the off-season as it'd force bonus overages to carry into next season.

The negative cap consequences for next year would be:

Stoner @ 3.25
+ bonus overages of likely 2-3 million
=5.25 to 6.25 million

Leafs should just keep their cap flexibility and make deals in the off-season where they can add a good vet D which is what they need more then trying to develop another young D (on a team loaded with young D).

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

Leafs could do it but putting guys on LTIR to create more room this season would severely limit their cap options in the off-season as it'd force bonus overages to carry into next season.

The negative cap consequences for next year would be:

Stoner @ 3.25
+ bonus overages of likely 2-3 million
=5.25 to 6.25 million

Leafs should just keep their cap flexibility and make deals in the off-season where they can add a good vet D which is what they need more then trying to develop another young D (on a team loaded with young D).

Except Ronidas and Cowen, assuming Cowen is still with us expire at seasons end so it's not as bad as you make it sound