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Leafs Core Beyond the 2013-14 - EDIT Retool or Blow it up?

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The Winter Soldier

The Winter Soldier

Registered User
Apr 4, 2011
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This team has some good pieces in place, this is not a tear it up, rebuild type of thread or discussion.

But one thing that has been bugging me of late, it is convincing myself this team can win a championship with the 26th best GA average in the NHL with it's current core.

We improved to 17th in GA last season, but when you look at this team, it is a run and gun team going back to Ron Wilson's abysmal defensive teams.

The simple fact is it is close to impossible winning championships with bad defensive teams.

Is it the players or the coaching?

I think it's a bit of both, with more emphasis on the players. Too many guys on this team that refuse or do not understand how to defend.

Simple message to Nonis, add more 2 way players in the off season.
 
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Our team has a loser's mentality. In the years where we were the league's youngest team, you could excuse our poor defending, our poor starts, our inability to hold leads, etc. But now that we're older, more experienced, have tasted the intensity of the playoffs and still suffer from all of these deficiencies, it feels like this team will never "get it". It seems like they will never have the mentality of a winning core. You need players who amp up their game when push comes to shove. Guys like Toews and Bergeron (who obviously don't grow on trees). We don't have anyone like that. Retool (especially the defence).
 
TonsofPuppies said:
Our team has a loser's mentality. In the years where we were the league's youngest team, you could excuse our poor defending, our poor starts, our inability to hold leads, etc. But now that we're older, more experienced, have tasted the intensity of the playoffs and still suffer from all of these deficiencies, it feels like this team will never "get it". It seems like they will never have the mentality of a winning core. You need players who amp up their game when push comes to shove. Guys like Toews and Bergeron (who obviously don't grow on trees). We don't have anyone like that. Retool (especially the defence).
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We need to add complete players to this team, we have too many run and gun guys. When you say a Boston Bruins type player you know what you are getting. 2 way tough mentality players.

I think we have been lulled into believing this team is close, the one thing I cannot get away from, teams with as poor defensive records like ours, do not win Stanley Cups.

This is the goal, and if we can't reduce our goals against, what is the point of fooling ourselves we will win a cup one day.
 
0 reason to re-tool.

The defense will 100% get better internally, Rielly will continue to improve as well as Gardiner.

We also have numerous solid defensive prospects like Percy or Granberg that are almost ready, and Finn isn't far behind.

If there's a top-4 D-man available at free-agency or at a very low price then for sure get one, but otherwise we have to stand pat as top pairing d-men are rarely available for a good price(got lucky with Dion).

As for forward core, ideally one of Raymond or Lupul would be replaced with a two-way forward(like a Tarasenko or Perron, or Saad or Eriksson type) those two just bring a repetitiveness with our offense, as Kessel is already a high scoring winger who lacks defense, so having another one like Lupul doesn't help us that much.

Realistically unless we get it in free-agency or by trading away a guy like Lupul it's gonna be hard to improve this team through outside sources.

Luckily we may get Komarov back which will help to improve the team, and oyu better hope kulemin resigns.
 
Kessel, Bozak, JVR, Kadri, Phaneuf, Rielly, Bernier. Keep them, if the rest are gone I won't lose sleep.
 
Ironically Clarkson was supposed to be a 2 way player we needed.

Leafs are too soft, and too one dimensional.

All I know is Gardiner, Franson, and Ranger are too shaky defensively. Rielly is going to improve, but he will never be a defensive defenceman, and I love the kid.

Lupul, Raymond, Clarkson, Kadri, anyone on the 2nd line this season has put up points and minuses.

Bolland is a 2 way player but he has not been in the lineup since Nov 2nd.

We need to improve our defence to be in the top 10 in the league or this team will never win a championship, this is the reality of it.

We have a great goalie, if we didn't we would probably be 28-30th in GA this season. Defensively It's ugly,
 
I don't think it's as much of a problem with our core as much as it is a problem with our supporting players. On defense we have Gunnarsson who is a good supporting player, but outside of that, not much. On forward, we have just about 0 good supporting players. Lupul and Raymond can play pretty well offensively, but defensively not much. McClement can play the defense, but brings next to 0 offense. If we can get more 2 way players to support JVR, Bozak, Kessel and Kadri, I think it could be the makings of a really good team. Usually you get those players from your farm system. So far that hasn't really worked out yet, hopefully that changes soon.
 
There is no way a team with a .925 starter should be 26th in goals against. Nonis has plenty of work to do once the season is over.

I would say the top line plus Bernier Phaneuf and Rielly are safe bets to stay, but just about anything else should be open for discussion.
 
Interactif said:
Ironically Clarkson was supposed to be a 2 way player we needed.

Leafs are too soft, and too one dimensional.

All I know is Gardiner, Franson, and Ranger are too shaky defensively. Rielly is going to improve, but he will never be a defensive defenceman, and I love the kid.

Lupul, Raymond, Clarkson, Kadri, anyone on the 2nd line this season has put up points and minuses.

Bolland is a 2 way player but he has not been in the lineup since Nov 2nd.

We need to improve our defence to be in the top 10 in the league or this team will never win a championship, this is the reality of it.

We have a great goalie, if we didn't we would probably be 28-30th in GA this season. Defensively It's ugly,
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Franson should likely be replaced by Grannberg and traded. Grannberg is a mobile DFD which should improve the defense(and he'll definitely be ready)

Can't say much about Bolland, great player who got injured badly and you have to factor in that we may get komarov so the bottom 6 should definitely be better next season.

Clarkson is probably having the worst year of his career and although he's not that much better than he's shown he's definitely better than 15 points.

Gardiner you have to give another season based on potential, but if he doesnt play well enough I could see him gone next deadline.
 
Bolland and Komarov make this team better in our end.

Rielly and Gardiner with more confidence make our d more reliable.

a healthy battle for bottom pairing internally makes an easy, cost efficient fix.
 
.... you guys realise we're still one of the three youngest teams in the league. MAYBE top five?

so. no. they need to learn how to play smarter.

everytime I say that Leafs Nation couldn't handle a full out rebuild people say that's not true, yes we can, and then something like this comes up. I don't know what it is about Randy's system, but I think this summer he needs to get a new one in plan with the people he's got.

and then he needs to tell everyone to stop cheating.
 
Relax, they're a young team. Let them grow together and the kinks will iron themselves out. You could make a change, or two, to the defence but otherwise the core looks promising. Fans here could be so hot and cold.
 
Carlyle is trying to teach a difficult system to guys who are young and inexperienced, it takes time. We saw in Anaheim how effective it was when he had star players in their prime and strong, experienced defenders.
 
Nothing has changed from last off-season where everyone was talking about center depth and I was saying we need a top pairing defender. The rest of the team would look so much better if there was a talented defender providing the team with stability.
 
rdawg1234 said:
Franson should likely be replaced by Grannberg and traded. Grannberg is a mobile DFD which should improve the defense(and he'll definitely be ready)

Can't say much about Bolland, great player who got injured badly and you have to factor in that we may get komarov so the bottom 6 should definitely be better next season.

Clarkson is probably having the worst year of his career and although he's not that much better than he's shown he's definitely better than 15 points.

Gardiner you have to give another season based on potential, but if he doesnt play well enough I could see him gone next deadline.
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Granberg and Percy are 2 guys I am very high on, smart defenders that will save goals, but not score many goals either. Saving goals is just as important than giving away goals.

Komarov is a guy we can use, we need more players that play well in all zones, not just one zone. Leafs nation focuses too much on goals and assists. I get it, it's sexier to cite points totals.

I just want us to win, GA is the easiest and quickest way to being a contender, we need players that are able to play smart defensively. Commit to a GA approach.
 
Yup over reaction thread as usual.

All this game showed though i didnt watch it.

There is still work to do. Have some great pieces. A young and upcoming team that makes mistakes.

With that being said, we cant have 50% effort players. If ur young than i will give benefit of the doubt, but veterans like lupul who people called captain not trying, that is unacceptable!
 
And add on from previous post. Look at our young marlies with a very young D core. A great team this year.

Help is on the way Leafs Nation!!
 
mikebel111 said:
Yup over reaction thread as usual.

All this game showed though i didnt watch it.

There is still work to do. Have some great pieces. A young and upcoming team that makes mistakes.

With that being said, we cant have 50% effort players. If ur young than i will give benefit of the doubt, but veterans like lupul who people called captain not trying, that is unacceptable!
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The point is Mike, if this city wants to see a Cup in our lifetimes, we need to cut down the goals against.

We are back in the 25th GA range like we were for all those Wilson years.

There is no conceivable way a team wins a Stanley Cup if they are not in the top 3rd in the league in GA. Which led me to start this thread.

The common answer is you can teach a player to defend, but really can you?
 
Interactif said:
The point is Mike, if this city wants to see a Cup in our lifetimes, we need to cut down the goals against.

We are back in the 25th GA range like we were for all those Wilson years.

There is no conceivable way a team wins a Stanley Cup if they are not in the top 3rd in the league in GA. Which led me to start this thread.

The common answer is you can teach a player to defend, but really can you?
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Yes, it's the easiest thing in the league to learn.
 
Interactif said:
The point is Mike, if this city wants to see a Cup in our lifetimes, we need to cut down the goals against.

We are back in the 25th GA range like we were for all those Wilson years.

There is no conceivable way a team wins a Stanley Cup if they are not in the top 3rd in the league in GA. Which led me to start this thread.

The common answer is you can teach a player to defend, but really can you?
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Ofcourse u can. It takes experience. Bolland was not known as a good 2 way player in junior. He just put up a lot of points, and now is a very good defensive player in the NHL.

Manny Malhotra is another good example.

It takes some time. We are a young team learning to defend and attack, not just attack.

Good thing is we have prospects coming up who are already good in own end. Percy, Finn etc...
 
Raymond, Franson, Reimer and Bolland (if he demands too much) are expendable this offseason imo. However excluding Franson I'd take them all back on cap friendly deals.
 
Daisy Joy said:
.... you guys realise we're still one of the three youngest teams in the league. MAYBE top five?

so. no. they need to learn how to play smarter.

everytime I say that Leafs Nation couldn't handle a full out rebuild people say that's not true, yes we can, and then something like this comes up. I don't know what it is about Randy's system, but I think this summer he needs to get a new one in plan with the people he's got.

and then he needs to tell everyone to stop cheating.
Click to expand...

The biggest turnaround I ever saw defensively for a Leafs team was when Pat Burns took over as coach for us in 92. We were awful the year before and under Burns in 1 year became one of the tightest teams in the NHL.

The biggest factor there was our best player was also our best defensive player. Doug Gilmour.

We had the same defence of Gill, Ellett, Rouse, and McCoun. We added Lefebvre and this became the best tandem of 5 D in the NHL. With that the Leafs under Burns was one of the best defensive teams 2 years straight.

Does this Leafs team have the same components, doesn't look like it. Kessel is our best player, great scorer, defensively better now than when he first became a Leaf but he is no Gilmour nor does this 6 D compare with the 5 D we had back then.
 
Assuming the core is Kessel, Lupul, JVR, Kadri, Bozak, Phaneuf, Rielly and Bernier... I would look to add other pieces and build around it.
 
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