Leafs are outshot...

Christ

Registered User
Mar 10, 2004
12,137
478
Canada
I remember when the leafs always outshot teams and lost....

I also remember feeling like we were a better team than we were because we routinely outshot our opponents... Today's Leafs are emphatically demonstrating that it is not the number of shots taken that determines a winner...it is the quality of scoring chances and the number of actual goals scored that matters. Having solid NHL quality goaltending helps a bit too:)
 

Mr Scarface*

Guest
I also remember feeling like we were a better team than we were because we routinely outshot our opponents... Today's Leafs are emphatically demonstrating that it is not the number of shots taken that determines a winner...it is the quality of scoring chances and the number of actual goals scored that matters. Having solid NHL quality goaltending helps a bit too:)
Having solide NHL scorers and wingers and centers helps too :) What an offense and defense we have.
 

JackJ

Registered User
Feb 7, 2012
5,330
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GF: 3.36 (3rd)
GA: 2.29 (6th)
PP: 25.5 (3rd)
PK: 86.8 (4th)

The only four stats that matter.
 

Man Bear Pig

Registered User
Aug 10, 2008
31,115
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Earth
Rielly - 17
Franson - 16
Gunnarsson - 16
Ranger - 14
Phaneuf -13
Gardiner - 10

Yet I'm sure these stats will go ignored

Takeaways

Franson - 16
Ranger - 14
Phaneuf - 11
Rielly - 9
Gardiner - 6
Gunnarsson - 2

What those numbers don't tell you is how bad Ranger has actually played and how his turnovers often lead to odd-man rushes. He's been much better of late but was awful in the first 7-8 games, more noticeably bad than others(maybe Gardiner too)
 

Ari91

Registered User
Nov 24, 2010
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They are analysts...their job is analyze. It may be a broken record story to tell but it's the biggest storyline for the Leafs. On the down side, it's a storyline that seems to overshadow the talent that drives our offense but on the up side, the storyline plays right into highlighting the quality of our goalies and so far this season, the recognition for Bernier and Reimer is well deserved. So if there's anything to take from it, there's that.

I'm surprised that these guys haven't joked about the Leafs being a goalie's save percentage nightmare.
 

Jimmy Firecracker

They Fired Sheldon!
Mar 30, 2010
36,479
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Mississauga
I'm getting sick of how Outshot is beginning to also mean Outplayed. Edmonton outshot us on Tuesday, but it never felt like they "dominated" or outplayed us at anything. They were just like the 09-10 Leafs, throwing whatever they could at the net hoping to score. I only saw the third period of the Calgary game, but from what I've heard and read, it wasn't a spectacular game from us, but then again, it was the 2nd night of a back to back.
 

Ari91

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Nov 24, 2010
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As for Franson's struggles...I think he really misses Fraser. I think Franson is being forced to read the game differently with Rielly as his partner. He's no longer the sole offensive go to guy at the blue line who has free reign to jump into the play. Now he sometimes has to be the stay at home guy while his partner jumps up into the play and he isn't adapting well. Not to mention, he and Fraser have said countless times that they had instant chemistry with one another and could read each other on the ice with ease. Franson's struggles only make Rielly's play all the more impressive.
 

The_Chosen_One

Registered User
Jul 4, 2006
6,285
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Melbourne, Australia
We really got to stop using this excuse. The best defense is a great offense. Simply put the Leafs need to control possession of the puck more and dictate the pace of the game. They aren't doing that and are consistently getting hemmed into their own zone. Sooner rather than later some of those pucks will trickle in past Bernier and Reimer. If this doesn't change, we might be looking at a prolonged losing streak soon.
We're actually pretty good defensively as in limiting scoring chances and regaining the puck. However, we're atrocious in clearing the puck and this has a lot to do with unbalanced lines. Rielly, for instance, can effortlessly move the puck out of his zone while Gunnarsson cannot.

This cliché that a defensive defenceman are somehow great in moving puck out of the zone is misleading. We don't play a tight checking game like Nashville and often our forwards are cheating in the attacking zone. Moreover, we don't have a prototypical centre that plays a significant role in driving possession. For that reason, a possession-driving D core is required. Fortunately, Phaneuf is great in zone-entries and using his physical prowess to keep the puck in the attacking zone, but he clearly needs creative help.
 

Tyler Biggs*

Guest
Shots on goal is a misleading statistic that can lead to many bad conclusions. In particular it says nothing about the quality of shot, where it came from on the ice nor how well the goalie's sightlines were. Yes, a team can control the puck on the perimeter and get many perimeter shots but if they don't have anybody in front of the net for screening an rebound purposes it's not likely that many if any shots are going to score...
 

AuraSphere

Registered User
Jun 27, 2012
4,243
2,346
It's actually concerning. Did you see our time on attack? It felt like we barely had possession of the puck. We get a few lucky bounces and we have players that have great shots and shooting percentage. But that doesnt change the fact that we're not able to cycle the puck well. Sometimes we just look lost.

Some of you may bash me, but that's what I feel when I watch our team play lol. We need to really tighten in on our zone and learn to keep control of the puck.
 

Slot

Registered User
Mar 6, 2012
2,691
198
Pretty much. How about using stats that are more valuable, like GOALS, and SV%.

haven't you learned anything? Shots and possession are all that counts in today's NHL! goals are relatively rare events and mean NOTHING!

am I doing it right?
 

ponder

Registered User
Jul 11, 2007
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I think we're doing a pretty good job of keeping teams out of the danger areas ("bending but not breaking," as it were), and on the offensive side the shots we do get have often been of very high quality (odd man rushes, breakaways, shots in close off cross ice passes, etc.). It's not pure luck that we're winning despite getting outshot, the quality of our shots is generally a lot higher than that of our opponent's.

With that being said, our puck possession has been pretty poor. The opposing team has the puck most of the game, it's a bit of a dangerous way to play, even if it's been working so far. We can be a good team with this counter attacking style, but it's hard to see us being a great/dominant team if we spend most of the game without the puck. It's not a massive concern or anything, but a lack of puck possession is definitely one of our bigger team weaknesses.
 

Center Ice Scrum*

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Aug 20, 2010
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My frustrations of watching this team constantly outshoot and outplay teams AND STILL LOSING for 8 ****ing years has made me come to the conclusion that I DON'T GIVE A ****. Where were our sympathy wins when we constantly put up 30+ shots game after game and lost the game due to incompetent offense and ****** goaltending? Last I checked, all those ****** games counted as losses. I honestly have 0 sympathy for fans of other teams who "feel" like they out played us or out chanced us because at the end of the day, suck my balls, we won the game. PERIOD.

This is a results oriented business. You don't get style points for pretty wins. Devils trapped their way to a HOF goalie and multiple cups. Go ask them how many times other fans and "experts" told them that they were outplayed that game. Boston Bruins were badly outplayed for majority of the SCF vs the Nucks. Go ask them if they want to return their rings. Clutch teams find way to win. Clutch teams win championships. Losers look for excuses. If getting out shot by 40 every night means that we can get a W, so be it.
 
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Center Ice Scrum*

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Aug 20, 2010
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Quick recap of the games:

1. Vs. Habs: First period we were exchanging chances with the Habs and they managed to capitalize on some great plays and rushes. From the 2nd period onwards, we basically carried the play for rest of the game.

2. Vs. Flyers: Tired Leafs team looked very sluggish in the first period and were lucky to have only been trailing by one. Flyers incompetent offense couldn't get anything going after their first goal. They had a few chances here and there but the Leafs pretty much burried every high quality scoring chance they had. Flyers are still **** to this day.

3. Vs. Sens: Leafs come out on fire and Franson/ Rielly manage to single handily tie up the game. Sens get another flukey goal where Reimer was out of the net and the whiff on Jason Spezza's harmless shot which again should've been a save but instead sent Reimer packing early. Bernier came in and made 3 stellar saves, Leafs offense got their **** together in the 3rd and dominated the Sens. The Leafs carried the play in the 3rd and OT and eventually won it in the SO.

4. Vs. Col: Sarich goal was a terrible goal allowed by Bernier, he got beat high because he was trying to cheat the play. Sarich also made one hell of a shot. Leafs scrambled to tie up the game with an ugly goal and the game as a whole was just a cluster**** of confusion for both teams. Neither teams had anything quality going. GWG off the foot of Parenteau on a questionable goal but one that Bernier had no chance on. Leafs seemed to have no urgency in their offense and once again it was just a WTF game. Neither team was impressive.

5. Vs. Nas: Leafs got dominated mostly thanks to some PP opportunities in the first period. Bernier saved their ass in the first. 2nd and 3rd period though, it was all Leaf domination. Leafs basically toyed with the Preds. Preds did still get a ton of chances on the PP but once again Bernier was stellar.

6. Vs. EDM: The game where no one knew what defense or goaltending looked like. Classic game of exchanging scoring chances. Leafs got burned late on one of the many turnovers that ended up into a pretty Ryan Smith goal set up by Eberle. Bernier made a game saving stop (in hindsight) by robbing Arcobello on a shot that he whiffed on. Lupul tied the game late and the Leafs literally knocked over the Oilers to claim victory.

7. Vs. Min: Minny was on the tail end of a back to back and was playing their 10 year old goalie Kuemper. The kid was hung out to dry in the first period when he let in 2 softies. Wild made it a close game just before the end of the first on the PP. Wild then threw the everything on net in hopes of getting something by Reimer but to no avail. Their shots were all perimeter with hardly any dangerous opportunities. Leafs basically let the wild expend their energy trying to put useless shots on net while they capitalized on a couple of their chances including the JVR like goal by MayRay that put the 10 year old to bed early.

8. Vs. Car: Carolina's D looked atrocious against the Maple Leafs forecheck. Semin and the Staal brother were all invisible through the first 2 periods and the only noticeable player offensively was Jeff Skinner. Skinner was constantly getting knocked on his ass but had some good scoring chances where he completely whiffed on the plays. J Staal whiffed on a breakaway too. Leafs got the lead thanks to Lupes, Leivo padded the lead with a beautiful 2 on 1 rush with Jay Mac and fluttered a beauty top cheese. Then we got the regular mind**** by the Canes. Canes have had our # for years now. We just can't seem to finish them off. They didn't particularity outplay the Leafs in the 3rd but did capitalize on chances. 1st goal was a blast from the point by Murphy that went off of Bolland's stick top cheese. 2nd goal was a total dumbass play by gunnar who tried to block a weak fluttering shot from the point while falling to the ice. It was a completely pointless block since the shot wasn't even going on net. But the blocked shot resulted in the puck sitting in the slot and Eric Staal winding up for a clapper going top cheese. 3rd goal was just stupidity from the referees to Bernier being nonchalant with the play. That said the same dump-in a 100 times probably won't go in again. It was the perfect scenario. Either way Leafs dominated the period out of desperation from that point on but you know how it is vs the Canes.

9. Vs. Chi: Fairly even game after the first period and the penalty issues started. Leafs lost their legs and there were a ton of open chances for blackhawks players standing in front of the net. Kostka goal was a weak shot and the pirri goal as insurance was greasy but still a good shot for the kids first goal. This game we started off even but ended up flat on our faces. We played like ****. Hawks weren't that impressive but got the job done.

10. Vs. Ana: Great goal on the 2 on 1 rush by Bonino and a bar down snipe by Perreault. Either way the Leafs were sleepwalking through the first 25 or so minutes of that game. We got a pp i believe and got the momentum back in our favor and scored a goal. Then 2 minutes later a nice rush by Bolland turned into the game tying goal by Phaneuf. After that goal, the Leafs dominated for rest of the game. Phil Kessel looked like he could score on every opportunity and he pretty much did getting a hatty with a couple of nice goals including a bar down pointblank snipe.

11. Vs. Clb: Columbus came out with a ton of energy and effort. They pounced on us early with a ppg from Murray but other then that goal they didn't generate much in terms of high quality chances. Mind you the Leafs didn't do anything either. 2nd period, I think 1 minute in or less we tie it up on the Kessel goal. After that the game was going very evenly till Gaborik roofed one on Bernier and then BJs went into defense mode. Leafs pressured them but they didn't give us anything. Leafs had a pp midway through the 3rd and it looked extremely lackluster and resulted in a SHG which basically took us out of the game completely. Bolland scored a goal late to make it a one goal game again and the urgency returned. But we couldn't solve the BJs defense. They get 2 empty net goals and a Nick Foligno goal with 8 secs left which I did not watch because I was too pissed off by that point.

12. Vs. Pit: We shutdown Crosby and Malkin. We hit them every chance we had and pretty much gave them 0 space all game long. The first period was slow even after Letang scored but the Leafs took off right after the SHG by Bolland. We didn't look back after that goal. We pretty much dominated Pittsburgh possession wise, They didn't get many quality chances and the ones they did get, they either ****ed up or Reimer was robbing them point blank. Reimer made 3-4 really good saves to steal the show.

13. Vs. Edm: We jumped on them early. Then we sat back like lazy *****es. We probably could've potted 3-4 goals in the first if we weren't so damn lazy and Lupul didn't keep getting robbed. 2nd and 3rd periods were basically Oilers willing to exchange shot for shot. Justin Schultz felt like playing russian roulette with Phil Kessel and he paid the price 3 times. Oilers got close and hit the post a few times but overall they weren't all that dangerous. Reimer made 2 point blank saves when the idiotic Oilers players shot the puck into his chest but other then that he was very calm and solid.

14. Vs. Cgy: Much like the bluejackets, flames came out with a ton of energy and speed. Our D didn't skate all game long (except 44 and 51). Our forwards were slow. We got on the board on a set play with the shot off the boards and Lupes banging away the rebound out front. Calgary had a flurry of shots early and throughout the first period with many of them being great chances but overall Bernier was stellar and up to the task. Before the end of the first JVR scored a beauty SHG to put us up 2. Cgy got one back in the second thanks to Kadri running around and Carlyle having too much faith in him putting him out for a D-zone faceoff. Long story short the second period was slow and not overly eventful. Lots of back and forth hockey but not a whole lot of high quality chances from either teams. 3rd period we sit back and play D. Clarkson picks the Dman trying to go 5hole on him, toe drags the puck shoots on to Raymond who scores. Leafs physicality took over in the 3rd and they were really grinding it out. Kessel didn't see much icetime in the 3rd. Flames get a fluke goal on a point shot that goes off a CGY players skate and then CGY cranks up the pressure. Clarkson's dumb penalty gives them a 6 on 4 which they couldn't execute properly because they couldn't make 3 consecutive tape to tape passes. Ranger bowls over Hudler and snaps it into the EN for a SHG. Leafs played with fire (pun intended) but Bernier kept them safe. Calgary could've taken it to the Leafs if they had finishers or even competent passers.

All in all, Leafs were dominated in stretches during almost every game this year but they also dominated for stretches of the same game. Only games where the Leafs gave no effort through and through was the CLB and Chi games. Every other game was at worst evenly matched with the Leafs converting on their chances and either the other team was incompetent in burying their own chances or our goaltending and defense shut them down. If anything, if there was any consistency on this ****ing team, we should be atleast 11-2-1 right now. With the Avs game going to OT and the Canes game being a win.

Unsustainable performance would be something like scoring 2 goals a game and only giving up one and winning each game by a 1 goal margin. We're not squeaking out wins here. 7 of our wins are by 2+ goals and 3 wins by 1 goal. On the other hand, 2 of our losses were by 2+ and the other 2 were only by 1 goal.

SO...
In 2 goal games we're 7-2, which means that we either destroy the other team or get destroyed. :sarcasm:
In 1 goal games we're 3-2, which is quite average.

If we were barely squeaking out wins (which is what most of these posters and experts/ analysts seem to be implying) we shouldn't be winning by on average 2.10 goals/win.
 
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Confucius

There is no try, Just do
Feb 8, 2009
22,462
7,323
Toronto
More shots doesn't mean more wins, Wilson tried that. We outshot everybody one year and finished 2nd last. When the Russians first started coming over and playing us they'd take 20 shots a game and score 4 or 5 goals.
 

SprDaVE

Moderator
Sep 20, 2008
52,780
34,854
I don't think being outshot is a huge issue but the dfiference of the shots for and shots against is far too big right now.

I mean we are winning and that's great but there needs to be more consistency in our own end. Even Carlyle thinks we are playing with fire when we give up over 35 shots a game.

I do agree though that a few of the games the shot count was padded due to circumstances that really wasn't related to the game play, but I hope that we can rectify the constant 15+ shots a period.
 

pucky

Registered User
Jan 11, 2011
8,079
172
It will catch up with them like it did last year. Then there will be another dramatic exit. I'm serious. You can't just rely on your goalies throughout the entire season and playoffs like that and get outshot by a 2-1 ratio all year but still expect to advance or contend.
 

JackJ

Registered User
Feb 7, 2012
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Don't Points and ROW matter more?

Can't remember the last successful team who wasn't proficient on the defensive portion (GA, PK) of the stats. The old NJ teams would often make the playoffs with a horrible PP and GF percentages but were among the league leaders on the other two.
 

KuleminFan41

Registered User
Jan 5, 2009
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614
What those numbers don't tell you is how bad Ranger has actually played and how his turnovers often lead to odd-man rushes. He's been much better of late but was awful in the first 7-8 games, more noticeably bad than others(maybe Gardiner too)
So basically, stats don't mean anything when it comes to Paul Ranger then? Okay, makes sense
 

Glenn Isildur Healy

Registered User
Oct 8, 2013
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CBC Studios
More shots doesn't mean more wins, Wilson tried that. We outshot everybody one year and finished 2nd last. When the Russians first started coming over and playing us they'd take 20 shots a game and score 4 or 5 goals.

Again Ill take all the wins possible because this city rarely has any luck with its sports teams

Back on topic. Our goaltending has been great but one thing has been a constant for all these years, our defense is still a big weakness. If you aren't concerned about that then you are only looking short-term (which is the wrong thing to do in a long season)
 

Gary Nylund

Registered User
Oct 10, 2013
30,241
22,914
I'm getting sick of how Outshot is beginning to also mean Outplayed. Edmonton outshot us on Tuesday, but it never felt like they "dominated" or outplayed us at anything. They were just like the 09-10 Leafs, throwing whatever they could at the net hoping to score. I only saw the third period of the Calgary game, but from what I've heard and read, it wasn't a spectacular game from us, but then again, it was the 2nd night of a back to back.

The Calgary game was awful. You are 100% right about the EDM game, that was about even in terms of good scoring chances but last night was brutal. I recommend looking at the gamecast on espn that shows where each shot was taken from. Shot numbers alone are almost useless but a picture is worth a thousand words.


Shots on goal is a misleading statistic that can lead to many bad conclusions. In particular it says nothing about the quality of shot, where it came from on the ice nor how well the goalie's sightlines were. Yes, a team can control the puck on the perimeter and get many perimeter shots but if they don't have anybody in front of the net for screening an rebound purposes it's not likely that many if any shots are going to score...

See above. We were dominated last night. Bernier was godlike. He let in two goals but overall played even better Reimer who had the shutout the night before.


It will catch up with them like it did last year. Then there will be another dramatic exit. I'm serious. You can't just rely on your goalies throughout the entire season and playoffs like that and get outshot by a 2-1 ratio all year but still expect to advance or contend.

Agreed. It's still early though. The Leafs showed for much of the game against PIT and for 35 minutes against ANA what they are capable of. They played great against BOS in the playoffs. Still lots of time to get it together but I sure hope that the guys aren't getting complacent with all these wins. Hopefully they realize that they need to play much better but yeah, if the playoffs were starting tomorrow I wouldn't have high hopes.
 

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