Confirmed with Link: Leafs acquire Bernier for Frattin, Scrivens, 2nd in 14 or 15

[I Am The Stig]

the motto of losers everyplace... 'everyone loves an underdog'

what do underdogs have in common? they are used to losing, and do not expect to win. It is about time we stop being happy as underdogs, and try to become champions/winners or feared.

Lol wut. Reimer is the underdog because he came from nothing and clawed and worked his way to the starting position with great results while Bernier is the favorite based on skill and pedigree.

Regardless who wins the competition it puts the Leafs in the best contention to win. There is no losing here

 

[7even]

Knee jerk reactions?

Give me a break.

Reimer's performance in the playoffs was a microcosm of his entire career as a Leaf. He had a couple of very solid performances, but he was also very inconsistent. He allowed several weak goals throughout the series, he gave Boston far too many easy secondary scoring opportunities off of terrible rebounds from floaters from the point (which Boston exploited constantly), and his series ended in a crashing thud in game 7, wherein he should have had at least 2 or 3 of the goals Boston scored to prevent the Bruins from winning a series they had no business winning.

Reimer's a nice guy with a great personality, but that doesn't hide his deficiencies as a starting goaltender. He didn't necessarily play his way out of a starting role, but he certainly didn't play well enough to cement his role either.

A .923? Yes I would agree, that is very much representative of his time with the NHL club.

No, acting swiftly on flaws you see on your own team before everyone else exposes them is smart though.

Our flaws? Niemi got a Vezina nomination stopping the same % of pucks Reimer did last season. Unless you're talking about the backup goal position, in which case I agree. But that wasn't really what I was talking about.

Because Nonis hasn't been working on this trade for months, amirite?

It's a good deal that gives us 2 potential starting goalies, one with higher potential than the other. Are they proven #1s in this league, I'd say no, neither is, but what we have today is better than we had yesterday morning.

As for not having to give up much, the goalie market is already weak as it is, then having to retain salary is something very few teams in the mix could afford. At the end of the day, unless you're dealing a proven #1, you're not getting what you want back. And the fact Lombardi promised that he'd deal Bernier before the draft, he had to find the best deal he could, whether he was 100% in love with it or not.

Also, this doesn't necessarily exclude us from taking Fucale in the draft. If Nonis & co. think he's BPA, and don't think trading down makes sense, there's nothing preventing you from taking him. Goalies typically don't make their mark in the NHL for 5-7 years after their draft, so a lot can change, and at worst we have to find a way to deal Fucale if it comes down to Bernier/Reimer being embedded here.

Long story short, there's really no reason to hate this deal. Yeah Reimer is a fan favourite, but if we're getting a tendy that could push him/surpass him, I couldn't care less that we're replacing a guy who I personally like and want to succeed.

My comment was in response that the game 7 collapse is the only thing you need to consider to make this deal. Making moves based on 1/6th of one game is a pretty goddawful idea and the definition of a kneejerk move. The rest of your comment I'm in agreement with.

 

[mydnyte]

Lol wut. Reimer is the underdog because he came from nothing and clawed and worked his way to the starting position with great results while Bernier is the favorite based on skill and pedigree.

Regardless who wins the competition it puts the Leafs in the best contention to win. There is no losing here

not just a big fan of 'underdog' mentality. you should never underestimate anyone.

Reimer was a hockey player, and earned his spot at every level he's played, but, he is still a work in progress. It's not like he walking into the rink one day and said, hey can i try out for the team?

Bernier just has better tools overall.

 

[astro7]

Lol wut. Reimer is the underdog because he came from nothing and clawed and worked his way to the starting position with great results while Bernier is the favorite based on skill and pedigree.

Regardless who wins the competition it puts the Leafs in the best contention to win. There is no losing here

This. Well said.

 

[Liminality]

Both goalies are going to be 25 this year and both are showing good upside. (Reimer more so at the moment) Similar to the situation with Washington's goalies in 2010-2011 but they had 3 young goalies instead of just having 2.
They all split some games during the season and eventually Varlamov was traded for quite a hefty price. Holtby played 14 games, Varlamov played 27 and Neuvirth played 48. The year after they got Vokoun and again used 3 goalies. Vokoun played 48 games, Neuvirth played 38 and Holtby played 7.

This year it was a different story, Holtby and Neuvirth split time again but it was Holtby who played majority of the games playing 36 and Neuvirth playing 13.

Neuvirth was playing pretty good for the Caps too, Holtby after years of fighting for starts finally got given a chance and took over the job.


Bringing up this situation because I can see the same happening here. Reimer who's been given the majority of the starts this year and at least a 3rd of the starts 2 years prior, has shown he's capable of being a starting goaltender. Very comparable to Neuvirth. Maybe the Leafs just see something special in Bernier just like how the Caps saw something special in Holtby and continued to play him.

I just see this as a win/win where in the end, the Leafs are going to keep the guy who floats to the top. If both play well we can get a decent return on the one they decide not to keep just like Varlamov. This is Nonis playing it safe with so many variables in goaltending.

If both don't pan out then well....we're pretty screwed!

 

[Budsfan]

Goal Tending is the most important position in hockey, I have been saying for many years, good Goal Tending is like good Pitching in Baseball if you don't have it, you can't win.

With this trade, we should have some of the best Goal Tending available and for many years, other positions can be upgraded easier, than in Goal and I think with 2-3, or maybe 4 F/A signings or trades we can become a very elite team and push for a Cup run.

 

[Mojo19]

Awesome deal, Bernier is a potential franchise goalie and if he pans out we'll be able to dangle Reimer for a big deal (more than we gave up for Bernier). Hate to see Frattin go though, solid player drafted and developed in Toronto.



Who could we draft in the 2nd round to replace Frattin?

 

[Ari91]

If anyone can clarify, does a player have to already turned 27 before FA or can he qualify for FA in the year he will be turning 27?

I ask this because Bernier's birthday is after FA starts. If he has to be 27 before July 1st, that means the Leafs can sign him to a 2 year bridge contract which will make him an RFA in July 2015 (he will have missed the FA cutoff by a month). If qualifies in the year he turns 27, then I'm back to being curious as to how Nonis will pull off these signings.

 

[Pi]

If anyone can clarify, does a player have to already turned 27 before FA or can he qualify for FA in the year he will be turning 27?

I ask this because Bernier's birthday is after FA starts. If he has to be 27 before July 1st, that means the Leafs can sign him to a 2 year bridge contract which will make him an RFA in July 2015 (he will have missed the FA cutoff by a month). If qualifies in the year he turns 27, then I'm back to being curious as to how Nonis will pull off these signings.

I think you have to be 27 on July 1st to be UFA that year.

I think he'll get a 2 year bridge deal. Somewhere near 1.5M.

 

[Patty Lee]

Well everyone is talking politically correctly about healthy competition, and nothing set in stone, but they just gave up 3 assets and cash to acquire Bernier.
I think this is a pretty clear example of actions speaking louder than words.
Honestly, who gives up that package for a backup? Its Bernier's job to lose, not Reimer's.

I guess we see it differently. He may certainly be the number 1 guy, but the package wasn't 3 blue chip assets. the 2nd is unknown. Matt F may turn into something but is probably a 3rd liner and Ben S will never amount to much at the NHL. You may think that equates to a locked in stone number 1 but I don't. I think who ever comes out of camp looking the best will be the number 1 guy. And it could be either IMO

 

[johnny_rudeboy]

I think it is a good deal seeing as we got Bernier who I think is a talented goalie and it gives us a good combo of more or less equal quality goalies.

It do suck losing both Frattin and a 2nd rounder but I guess it is a fair deal. Goalies holds higher value then wingers.

Good luck to Frattin and also Schrivens.

 

[bobbyflex]

this kind of reminds me of the Toskala trade all over again. Don't forget when we traded for Toskala he was a highly touted young goaltender "stuck" behind Nabokov. Leafs acquired him and the first thing Ferguson did was give Toskala a brand new contract at $4 million per without proving anything.... Let's see how much Nonis gives Bernier

 

[SmoggyTwinkles]

This is a good situation and the Leafs are much stronger in the goalie position (the most important IMO)

It's important to have a good backup goalie too, so we should have that now no matter who's proving to be #1, and they're both on small hit/term contracts.

Nonis just made this team even better. **** Reimer's feelings, this teams putrid goalie situation the last half decade or more gave him his shot in the first place and he still has that shot. He hasn't solidified anything and if he really believes in his abilities he shouldn't be too worried, he'll get his opportunity somewhere else if Bernier really shows him up to the point that he has no shot at no. 1

It's probably more likely that Reimer is as doubtful of himself as his management is with regards to him being an elite no.1

This is one of the better deals I've experienced as a Leafs fan (since mid 90's)

Now watch Scrivens become the next Raask (no way) Frattin turns into Sullivan.

 

[achtungbaby]

Awesome deal, Bernier is a potential franchise goalie and if he pans out we'll be able to dangle Reimer for a big deal (more than we gave up for Bernier). Hate to see Frattin go though, solid player drafted and developed in Toronto.



Who could we draft in the 2nd round to replace Frattin?

So we keep a franchise goalie but trade the guy he beat out for more then we gave up to acquire the franchise goalie? How does that work?

 

[Ari91]

I think you have to be 27 on July 1st to be UFA that year.

I think he'll get a 2 year bridge deal. Somewhere near 1.5M.

Sweet. A 2 year bridge deal is ideal.

 

[Kagunoshi]

Incredible trade low risk high reward move. Love Bernier he's a very athletic goalie and adds a different dynamic that Reimer does not bring. At worst he'll be a solid backup at best a franchise goaltender.

 

[CellarDweller0]

Awesome deal, Bernier is a potential franchise goalie and if he pans out we'll be able to dangle Reimer for a big deal (more than we gave up for Bernier). Hate to see Frattin go though, solid player drafted and developed in Toronto.

Who could we draft in the 2nd round to replace Frattin?

I thought Frattin was a free wallet signing.

 

[Duffman955]

I thought Frattin was a free wallet signing.

Nope drafted in the 4th round in 2006

 

[Bravid Nonahan]

Reimer is a very good goalie and a very mature person. I am not worried about the situation. He has a good head on his shoulders.

 

[Nylanderthal]

A .923? Yes I would agree, that is very much representative of his time with the NHL club.




Our flaws? Niemi got a Vezina nomination stopping the same % of pucks Reimer did last season. Unless you're talking about the backup goal position, in which case I agree. But that wasn't really what I was talking about.



My comment was in response that the game 7 collapse is the only thing you need to consider to make this deal. Making moves based on 1/6th of one game is a pretty goddawful idea and the definition of a kneejerk move. The rest of your comment I'm in agreement with.

Your argument is sv%? We've been thru this before, his numbers were inflated because of the system in place here in Toronto. How about "the eye test" has Reimer ever looked like a competent #1? Not to me, and most importantly not to the Leafs coaching/management team.

 

[Nylanderthal]

this kind of reminds me of the Toskala trade all over again. Don't forget when we traded for Toskala he was a highly touted young goaltender "stuck" behind Nabokov. Leafs acquired him and the first thing Ferguson did was give Toskala a brand new contract at $4 million per without proving anything.... Let's see how much Nonis gives Bernier

Toskalol was 30, and not highly touted, plus what we gave up was A LOT more than these spare parts

 

[Daisy Jane]

this kind of reminds me of the Toskala trade all over again. Don't forget when we traded for Toskala he was a highly touted young goaltender "stuck" behind Nabokov. Leafs acquired him and the first thing Ferguson did was give Toskala a brand new contract at $4 million per without proving anything.... Let's see how much Nonis gives Bernier

I... don't think Bernier is anything like Toskala, nor do I think the situation is similar, if going by what the Kings fans have been saying. Also he was playing really well, until Quick found his game again (and you aren't going to tell your goaltender you gave a hefty new deal, sit down son, you'll get your way).

And there isn't the same pressure on Ferguson that there is on Nonis. While the mandate is always "to win!" JFJ's was "to win NOW!" Nonis's is more to "get all the pieces together so we can be a long term thread ala Chicago/Boston"

This is a good situation and the Leafs are much stronger in the goalie position (the most important IMO)

It's important to have a good backup goalie too, so we should have that now no matter who's proving to be #1, and they're both on small hit/term contracts.

Nonis just made this team even better. **** Reimer's feelings, this teams putrid goalie situation the last half decade or more gave him his shot in the first place and he still has that shot. He hasn't solidified anything and if he really believes in his abilities he shouldn't be too worried, he'll get his opportunity somewhere else if Bernier really shows him up to the point that he has no shot at no. 1

It's probably more likely that Reimer is as doubtful of himself as his management is with regards to him being an elite no.1

This is one of the better deals I've experienced as a Leafs fan (since mid 90's)

Now watch Scrivens become the next Raask (no way) Frattin turns into Sullivan.

LOL that's a little blunt, but in all honesty - i think that's the attitude that the management is having: Management's job is to ensure that we've got a glut of strength, ergo - should a deal arise we are dealing from strength - NOT from a weakness.

two straight years, Reimer has been injured to the point we HAD to rely on our backup. the first time, it took Reimer ages to get back to form. God forbid something serious happened, and again: what were the options? give the reigns fully to Scrivens? (and i LIKE Scrivens). But, and this is a game I think he played moderately well in it was the Ottawa game where we were up, and we lost it with .26 left to go. Scrivens stopped the puck, and just had this Patrick Roy cocky move going on, and everyone in the game day thread were all like




why was he A: doing that and B: stopping the play?
and then Greening scored.

that was the cherry on top, but there were a few goals in that game, buddy should have had.

Bernier will more likely have a better handle on games like that. I'm not going to say he's perfect, but I also don't think the GDT participants will be screaming about his five hole every goal either.

I thought Frattin was a free wallet signing.

I am preeeeeeeeeety sure we drafted him
yeah. we drafted him 99th (4th Round) in 2007.

 

[Nylanderthal]

So we keep a franchise goalie but trade the guy he beat out for more then we gave up to acquire the franchise goalie? How does that work?

Because if both guys come out and play well both of their values will be higher than the spare parts we tossed LA's way

 

[Clark4Ever]

Your argument is sv%? We've been thru this before, his numbers were inflated because of the system in place here in Toronto. How about "the eye test" has Reimer ever looked like a competent #1? Not to me, and most importantly not to the Leafs coaching/management team.

Exactly. According to the stats, Reimer is also a top ten goaltender.

Stats do not measure intangibles.

 

[Drugstorecowboi]

This is a good situation and the Leafs are much stronger in the goalie position (the most important IMO)

It's important to have a good backup goalie too, so we should have that now no matter who's proving to be #1, and they're both on small hit/term contracts.

Nonis just made this team even better. **** Reimer's feelings, this teams putrid goalie situation the last half decade or more gave him his shot in the first place and he still has that shot. He hasn't solidified anything and if he really believes in his abilities he shouldn't be too worried, he'll get his opportunity somewhere else if Bernier really shows him up to the point that he has no shot at no. 1

It's probably more likely that Reimer is as doubtful of himself as his management is with regards to him being an elite no.1

This is one of the better deals I've experienced as a Leafs fan (since mid 90's)

Now watch Scrivens become the next Raask (no way) Frattin turns into Sullivan.

I agree with you - also been a long time leaf fan (mid to late 80s) Here's the thing, we as Leaf fans aren't use to seeing really good goaltending so we think Reimer is super great. Reimer is good but man his rebound control cost the team quite a bit more then we think. His horrid glove hand/lackluster rebound control needs to be improved or he'll never be able to take the team past the second round of the playoffs. Just making the playoffs for us was huge..but bigger picture is we are going to need better goaltending then what Reimer can give, even at his "maxed out" potential (bad rebound/glove hand).

With Bernier - this kid has all the tools. I find it laughable that people have already started comparing him to Toskalol and others - but I can see where the lingering fear stems from based on the horrible goaltending we've had.

I believe Bernier will emerge here. I don't really miss Frattin, Scrivens or a 2nd round pick? Come one we got Bernier on a song. Low risk - High reward.