Salary Cap: Leafs' 2014-2015 Cap Situation and Strategy
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theIceWookie
#LeafHysteriaAlert
Except that this isn't true...
Hawks signed Versteeg and Byfuglien to 3 year contracts, and then traded them. Very different than you're making it seem.
B Schenn, Clifford and Penner aren't even on the Hawks...but I'll assume you meant the Kings. Schenn wasn't considered disposable lol. He was considered the price it took to get Richards. Again, very different. Clifford is still on the Kings so I don't know what you were talking about with him.
Penner is the only one you could possible argue what you're trying to argue. And the Kings still kept him around for three seasons.
And stop manipulating things to fit you're agenda. You're outright stating facts wrong now. The Kings have 9 players signed through next summer, and likely will have the number grow to 11 with Williams and Kopitar joining the group. Hawks have the same number signed through next summer, with Saad likely joining them to make it 10.
The Leafs have nine currently signed through the summer, with Rielly, Bernier and Kadri as the only strong likely players to be singed, bringing them to 12.
A whole 1 player more than the Kings, and a whole 2 more than the Hawk. Woopdeedoo, the world is ending.
So you're going to tell me that having Kessel, JVR, Gardiner, Bozak signed long term is an issue? The only real issue I see is the Clarkson and Komarov contracts. Phaneuf isn't overpaid and it's been mentioned by Friedman that his contract actually makes him more tradeable. Lupul was signed by the previous GM and is actually paid an amount that is league average for what he did last season (20ish goals, 50 points is what 5 million bought you).
I'm guessing you have issue with Gards (which doesn't make any sesnse to me, he's basically our best possession dmen) and Phaneuf. And probably Kessel for some neurotic reasoning.
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The Winter Soldier
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Leafs to LA Kings Comparison
Leafs contracts 3 to 8 years. 2.95M cap hit or above.
1. Kessel
2. Dion
3. Lupul
4. Clarkson
5. JVR
6. Bozak
7. Gardiner
8. Komarov (50K shy of 3M)
9. Robidas
Leafs have 15M to sign Kadri, Bernier, and Franson to LTC, plus 6 other players, if they re-sign the former players to LTC this would equal 12 long term contracts.
LA. 3 years or longer contracts at 3M or more.
1. Brown
2. Richards
3. Carter
4. Gaborik
5. Doughty
6. Voynov
7. Quick
15-16 Projected Capspace:
LA 16.635M
Toronto 15.497M
LA are cup winners 2 out of the last 3 years, they are significantly positioned better than the Leafs are going into next summer and long term. Better players, better contracts. Is this incorrect?
It's all here.
http://www.capgeek.com/mapleleafs/
Leafs contracts 3 to 8 years. 2.95M cap hit or above.
1. Kessel
2. Dion
3. Lupul
4. Clarkson
5. JVR
6. Bozak
7. Gardiner
8. Komarov (50K shy of 3M)
9. Robidas
Leafs have 15M to sign Kadri, Bernier, and Franson to LTC, plus 6 other players, if they re-sign the former players to LTC this would equal 12 long term contracts.
LA. 3 years or longer contracts at 3M or more.
1. Brown
2. Richards
3. Carter
4. Gaborik
5. Doughty
6. Voynov
7. Quick
15-16 Projected Capspace:
LA 16.635M
Toronto 15.497M
LA are cup winners 2 out of the last 3 years, they are significantly positioned better than the Leafs are going into next summer and long term. Better players, better contracts. Is this incorrect?
It's all here.
http://www.capgeek.com/mapleleafs/
Why would we commit to Franson long term?
Also, 3 years is not long term. If you think it is, then you should be very upset about us committing to players like Matt Finn and Connor Brown 'long term' when they haven't even proven they can play at an AHL level!
The Winter Soldier
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3 years runs into next summer, and I have illustrated the cap crunch already next summer, and it runs into a summer where we may be bidding for Stamkos and beyond. 3 years is significant for a team taking on salary and with no more buyouts.
Mess
Global Moderator
Next year the Leafs have 14 players under contract and $15.5 mil available and with an annual ave increase of ~$5 mil = about $20 mil to spend on 9 players for 23 man team.
Kadri and Bernier likely going to average out to $10 mil combined.
So Leafs will have about $10 mil and need 7 players = $1.4 mil AAV
So same situation as this year and needing to sign 1/2 a dozen bargain bin players < $1.5 mil and let Franson walk or trade him.
Kadri and Bernier likely going to average out to $10 mil combined.
So Leafs will have about $10 mil and need 7 players = $1.4 mil AAV
So same situation as this year and needing to sign 1/2 a dozen bargain bin players < $1.5 mil and let Franson walk or trade him.
Ok, I see what you're saying, but us not having the cap space to sign Stamkos on July 1st is not going to stop the GM from taking a serious shot at him. There is over 2 months in between the start of free agency and opening day of the regular season. Just look at 2 current cup contenders in Chicago and Boston. They are both currently over the cap, but you can bet that won't be the case when they play their first game this fall.
The Winter Soldier
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Which is probably the case, which means we are stuck with the same nucleus that has not made the playoffs 80% of the time they have been together. This is why it is counterproductive tying up a losing formula for 3 to 8 year contracts.
A 3 year threshold seems to be arbitrary to a certain extent. If anything, I think it's important to factor in the players as well. Obviously, the Kings lineup you posted is missing Kopitar -- that's a pretty big piece.
Kessel @ $8x8 vs Kopitar @ $6.8x2 -- I'd say this is a wash. Leafs long term, Kings short term.
Bozak @ $4.2x4 vs Brown @ $5.875x8 -- Again, to me this is a wash. I wouldn't want Brown in his mid 30s at that price, but Bozak's contract will be expired.
Lupul @ $5.25x4 vs Gaborik at $4.875 x 7 -- Gaborik easily for the first 4 years, maybe Toronto after that.
JvR @ $4.25 x 4 vs Carter at $5.27x8 -- Advantage JvR today.
Phaneuf @ $7x7 vs Doughty @ $7x5 -- Doughty's the clear winner here, Phaneuf's 2 extra years doesn't make up for it.
Gardiner @ $4.05 x 5 vs Voynov @ $4.1 x 5 -- Pretty much a wash.
Clarkson @ $5.25m x 6 vs Richards @ $5.75 x 6 -- Richards is the easier choice for me.
Bernier @ 2.9x1 vs Quick @ $5.8x9 -- Quick, by far.
To me, the real root of the problem is, with the exception of JvR / Carter, the Kings are making better use of their core $ today than the Leafs are. Kopitar's cap hit will be a lot better than Kessel's for the next 2 years. Gaborik's will be a lot better than Lupul's for the next 4 years. Doughty's will be a lot better than Phaneuf's for the next 5 years. Then there's Quick.
What are you trying to prove here? LA has been the cup winners 2 out of the last 3 years but the past tense doesn't mean very much when we start discussing a few years down the line from now.
LA also had contracts like Gagne, Penner, Smyth not to long ago which you seem to be forgetting to mention. So not every move has been a great deal.
I take the potential of our top end youngsters who've yet to hit their potential in Rielly, Nylander, Holland, Gardiner over Toffoli, Muzzin, etc.
The only bad contract I see for the Leafs is the Clarkson deal.
Meanwhile LA could potentially be saddled with 3 bad contracts.
Mike Richards is signed for 6 more years at 5.75 and is breaking down quickly. It was a good deal for him but now it looks likely to be the next Horcoff deal.
Dustin Brown was a great deal at 3.175 cap hit when they won those cups. But going on 30 this fall he'll be in year 1 of an 8 year deal that will pay him 5.875. He's also coming off a whopping 27 point season.
The Gaborik deal looks good today and was a smart move because LA is in win now mode but the guy is 33 this winter and having him inked for 7 years will likely come back to bite them as he's been injury prone through his entire career.
Mess
Global Moderator
The depressing part is this is year 7 of the rebuild that began in 2008 and we are still swapping out 1/2 the roster and starting from a bottom 10 team and among the worst in goals against and shots.
Even is any of these bargain bin players strike it big this year, Leafs will not be able to keep them just like Raymond. These players using the Leafs to restart or rebuild their careers and then move on for the money.
Next year Leafs will be in the same position again needing to find half a dozen cheap players so no matter if the team moves forward in the standings with this bottom 6 most will need to be replaced next year as 1 year contracts expire.
The bolded is at the very root, the problem.
With the way the Leafs have invested their cap dollars, they need to be ridiculously good on the wings. Kessel, Lupul, JvR, and Clarkson all represent sizable investments from a $ and asset perspective. JvR's been delivering on $4.25m worth of value. Kessel probably won't this year, but as more players sign contracts in that range, he probably will. The issue is -- Lupul & Clarkson. For their cap hits, they have to carry our 2nd and 3rd lines offensively, or at the very least, make for a 2nd line that's better than some team's firsts. That obviously hasn't happened.
Mess
Global Moderator
5 of Leafs 6 highest paid forwards are wingers in a league where strength down the middle is the desired team building strategy for success. Even then its anyone' guess who the 2nd line RW will be when the season starts even with the high cap investment in wingers.
This is not a desired way to cap manage a team in the salary cap world of building from the Wingers IN.
The reason Leafs ended up here is because wingers are a dime a dozen and regularly available and the lowest priority in team building with C, D and G the core building block positions.
Reading this thread with almost every poster being as negative as they are, one would suggest that we close the doors of the hf board.Close her down ! Let's all go to another board and start new.. 
Let's all separate and half go to the Jet's board and half go to the Sens board.
All is lost here so let's be like rats and leave the ship 
Let's all separate and half go to the Jet's board and half go to the Sens board. All is lost here so let's be like rats and leave the ship 
Gary Nylund
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Reading this thread with almost every poster being as negative as they are, one would suggest that we close the doors of the hf board.Close her down ! Let's all go to another board and start new..
If the reality of it all depresses you just remember, it's only a game.
why is everyone comparing our team to the Kings?
ya... we know that the kings have a better team. they won the cup and we missed the playoffs.
complaining that our team doesn't have as good players signed as the kings doesn't really make sense.
all we can do is make smart decisions going forward and i think the leafs have done that this offsesaon.
i don't think that anyone is claiming that we are able to build the #1 team on paper. we should be trying to have a team that is good enough to make the playoffs and good enough that we stand a chance against the better teams. anything can happen in a few games of playoff hockey... our goalie could get really hot... and we can go deep or even win this year with our current team. that's all we can ask for. i don't think our chances of winning are as good as other teams... but i think we have the potential to win... and i'm happy with that.
ya... we know that the kings have a better team. they won the cup and we missed the playoffs.
complaining that our team doesn't have as good players signed as the kings doesn't really make sense.
all we can do is make smart decisions going forward and i think the leafs have done that this offsesaon.
i don't think that anyone is claiming that we are able to build the #1 team on paper. we should be trying to have a team that is good enough to make the playoffs and good enough that we stand a chance against the better teams. anything can happen in a few games of playoff hockey... our goalie could get really hot... and we can go deep or even win this year with our current team. that's all we can ask for. i don't think our chances of winning are as good as other teams... but i think we have the potential to win... and i'm happy with that.
If the reality of it all depresses you just remember, it's only a game.
You get all my brownie points for that post
Rielly4
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- Dec 12, 2012
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I think we should try and move Dion and Lupuls contracts.
I like Dion but for 7 mil i dont think hes worth it especially since Rielly and Gardiner should be better PP guys.
There is no 7 mil d man in the league who isnt 1st line PP, i think Dion should be second unit now that we have Gards and Rielly.
I would try and move Dion for Ryan Strome possibly...Get a nice young player and lots of cap room.
Then move Lupul and Franson and try and get a decent top pairing RD whos main role is defence.
I like Dion but for 7 mil i dont think hes worth it especially since Rielly and Gardiner should be better PP guys.
There is no 7 mil d man in the league who isnt 1st line PP, i think Dion should be second unit now that we have Gards and Rielly.
I would try and move Dion for Ryan Strome possibly...Get a nice young player and lots of cap room.
Then move Lupul and Franson and try and get a decent top pairing RD whos main role is defence.
the real injustice in all this is after such a long time and the draft positions we have had
that there are so few self drafted players on this roster and even far fewer ones that are actual impact players.
Not at all. I just don't think it's realistic to get $8m of value out of Phil Kessel, when Patrick Kane costs $6.3m, Bobby Ryan costs $5.2m, Tyler Seguin & Taylor Hall cost $6m, etc.
We need a year or two for the bar on player compensation to move up to catch Phil Kessel. With Kane at $10.5m, Ryan, Spezza, etc. coming up for new contracts next year, that will move the bar.
Well, we need to be better than the Kings. Everyone does.
That doesn't make any sense. you either care when the contracts were signed when evaluating them or you don't. which is it?
I don't care at all when the contract was signed.
I care about how much the player costs his team in any given season; while realizing that it's extremely difficult to live up to first year contracts, because, on average, they increased 7%, while all other contracts remained at zero.
The CyNick
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The lunacy of these threads is that it acts like we have the same assets as the Kings. We don't, we haven't for a long time.
Cap management is really only a problem if it causes you to miss out on free agents or trades due to cap restraints. so far I don't believe we have missed on anyone due to cap restraints. Although to be fair, not every offer presented to our management gets out to the media. so maybe that Crosby for a 1st came in last January but we turned it down because of cap issues.
Our overall issues are two fold: 1. Poor preparation prior to entering the cap environment and 2. drafting poorly. The really good teams in the league have elite players drafted out of the top ten and quality players drafted outside the first round. That's really the key gap and it's tough to resolve because drafting is such a crap shoot.
The makeup of the players we have signed long term is just a function of circumstance. The elite player on our team happens to be a winger. forget arguing about whether or not we should have traded for him, should we have not signed him to a fair market contact just because he's a winger? We didn't let an Anze Kopitar walk in favor of inking Kessel long term. We locked up the asset we had, which gives us flexibility with that asset. is anyone going to argue JVR is a good deal? Gardiner? I can see questioning Clarkson and even Komorov, but again, we didn't pass up on quality centres or dmen to get those guys. We just added assets for free that can be later turned into other assets.
Cap management is really only a problem if it causes you to miss out on free agents or trades due to cap restraints. so far I don't believe we have missed on anyone due to cap restraints. Although to be fair, not every offer presented to our management gets out to the media. so maybe that Crosby for a 1st came in last January but we turned it down because of cap issues.
Our overall issues are two fold: 1. Poor preparation prior to entering the cap environment and 2. drafting poorly. The really good teams in the league have elite players drafted out of the top ten and quality players drafted outside the first round. That's really the key gap and it's tough to resolve because drafting is such a crap shoot.
The makeup of the players we have signed long term is just a function of circumstance. The elite player on our team happens to be a winger. forget arguing about whether or not we should have traded for him, should we have not signed him to a fair market contact just because he's a winger? We didn't let an Anze Kopitar walk in favor of inking Kessel long term. We locked up the asset we had, which gives us flexibility with that asset. is anyone going to argue JVR is a good deal? Gardiner? I can see questioning Clarkson and even Komorov, but again, we didn't pass up on quality centres or dmen to get those guys. We just added assets for free that can be later turned into other assets.
Mess
Global Moderator
The LA Kings have won 2 of the last 3 Stanley Cups and are a proven winner..
Leafs have missed the playoffs 6 of the last 7 years.
How can a proven Cup winning team and bottom 10 team be spending and using their cap space similarly while producing vastly different results?
Leafs have missed the playoffs 6 of the last 7 years.
How can a proven Cup winning team and bottom 10 team be spending and using their cap space similarly while producing vastly different results?
