Salary Cap: Leafs' 2014-2015 Cap Situation and Strategy

[Jack Bauer]

The LA Kings have won 2 of the last 3 Stanley Cups and are a proven winner..

Leafs have missed the playoffs 6 of the last 7 years.

How can a proven Cup winning team and bottom 10 team be spending and using their cap space similarly while producing vastly different results?

What about the other dozen teams that spend to the cap that are not winning Cups?

You use LA as an example when they're winning as if the reason they won is that they managed the cap better.

The reason they CAN manage the cap better is because of their success. Players buy into winning more then anything else in sports. More then privacy and their own stats.

As a bottom team Toronto has had to overpay to get players LA can keep at a discount in order to even gain a core to keep together. If you're not keeping the Kessel's and Phaneuf's and JVR's after you get them what are you trying to accomplish exactly?

Yes we signed Clarkson to a bad contract, but to compare us to the best team in hockey based on the fact we spent the same amount of money on players when half the league is probably within 4-5 million of the cap right now is typical Leaf Nation 'sky is falling' rhetoric and typical of the agenda you push here on a daily basis.

I'm convinced that if we ever won there'd still be a thread complaining about a trade we lost of extra million we paid a UFA. I don't know how some of you even enjoy the sport.

 

[Harry Kneel]

When I check CapGeek http://www.capgeek.com/payrolls/?charts_year=2014

I see 4 teams who are currently over the limit and need to reduce (Philly, Chicago, Tampa and Boston).

After that there is only one team with less cap space than the Leafs, LA Kings.

The average Cap space for all team is $5,410,053.77.

The average value of Cap space for all of last years playoff teams is $3,239,553.50

The average value of Cap space for all of last years non-playoff teams is $7,890,625.50

What this tells me is that while maybe the Leafs do not have a crisis at this time they, for a non-playoff team for 8 of the last 9 years they are in a bad cap situation. The hope would have been that in the building of this team we would have the luxury of cap space to make other moves.

It seems as though Burkie has learned his lesson and his Flames are in a much better position to make moves, Cap Space $17,288,333 with 20 players signed

 

[Jack Bauer]

The lunacy of these threads is that it acts like we have the same assets as the Kings. We don't, we haven't for a long time.

Cap management is really only a problem if it causes you to miss out on free agents or trades due to cap restraints. so far I don't believe we have missed on anyone due to cap restraints. Although to be fair, not every offer presented to our management gets out to the media. so maybe that Crosby for a 1st came in last January but we turned it down because of cap issues.

Our overall issues are two fold: 1. Poor preparation prior to entering the cap environment and 2. drafting poorly. The really good teams in the league have elite players drafted out of the top ten and quality players drafted outside the first round. That's really the key gap and it's tough to resolve because drafting is such a crap shoot.

The makeup of the players we have signed long term is just a function of circumstance. The elite player on our team happens to be a winger. forget arguing about whether or not we should have traded for him, should we have not signed him to a fair market contact just because he's a winger? We didn't let an Anze Kopitar walk in favor of inking Kessel long term. We locked up the asset we had, which gives us flexibility with that asset. is anyone going to argue JVR is a good deal? Gardiner? I can see questioning Clarkson and even Komorov, but again, we didn't pass up on quality centres or dmen to get those guys. We just added assets for free that can be later turned into other assets.

Exactly. Players like Nylander are those assets for us.

We could have had Carter and Richards like LA ended up with but would we be any better for it minus the assets we would have given up?

Our salary cap situation, since the debut of the salary cap, has never prevented us from bringing in an impact player via trade as those players are good enough to make you make other moves in preparation and there's not 1 NHL team right now that can't shed $8.7 million if Crosby demanded to play for them.

People can't seem to understand that having $500k or $1.5 mil in cap space with a full roster isn't preventing those kinds of moves. NHL GM's being smarter then ever and not wanting to be the next Mike Milbury is why there's so little movement among elite talent these days.

 

[Jack Bauer]

When I check CapGeek http://www.capgeek.com/payrolls/?charts_year=2014

I see 4 teams who are currently over the limit and need to reduce (Philly, Chicago, Tampa and Boston).

After that there is only one team with less cap space than the Leafs, LA Kings.

The average Cap space for all team is $5,410,053.77.

The average value of Cap space for all of last years playoff teams is $3,239,553.50

The average value of Cap space for all of last years non-playoff teams is $7,890,625.50

What this tells me is that while maybe the Leafs do not have a crisis at this time they, for a non-playoff team for 8 of the last 9 years they are in a bad cap situation. The hope would have been that in the building of this team we would have the luxury of cap space to make other moves.

It seems as though Burkie has learned his lesson and his Flames are in a much better position to make moves, Cap Space $17,288,333 with 20 players signed

How is the cap situation bad when only $5.25 of it is essentially unmoveable in a cap of $70 million?

We could clear $10 million by this evening if we needed it. That's not a bad situation.

I'd much rather Lupul then $5.25 in dead cap space. Same with Gardiner, JVR, Kessel, Bernier, Kadri and all their salaries.

We also have enough youth on the horizon to pencel in at least 1-2 ELC's over next of the next 2 seasons.

 

[Mess]

What about the other dozen teams that spend to the cap that are not winning Cups?

You use LA as an example when they're winning as if the reason they won is that they managed the cap better.

The reason they CAN manage the cap better is because of their success. Players buy into winning more then anything else in sports. More then privacy and their own stats.

As a bottom team Toronto has had to overpay to get players LA can keep at a discount in order to even gain a core to keep together. If you're not keeping the Kessel's and Phaneuf's and JVR's after you get them what are you trying to accomplish exactly?

Yes we signed Clarkson to a bad contract, but to compare us to the best team in hockey based on the fact we spent the same amount of money on players when half the league is probably within 4-5 million of the cap right now is typical Leaf Nation 'sky is falling' rhetoric and typical of the agenda you push here on a daily basis.

So our Leafs are in a tough spot..

Not Cup competitive and Cap maxed where much better teams have better talent and more success and even better player contracts in a Cap World. Leafs can't bring in more talent because they don't have the cap room and if they trade for good players then good players will have to be going out in exchange and equal cap dollars in and out to balance the cap.

So how are the Leafs going to win a Cup in this Cap situation?

 

[Morbo]

We're really not in a "tough spot". The only bad contract is clarkson, perhaps komarov as well although 2.95 isn't that much.

 

[Jack Bauer]

So our Leafs are in a tough spot..

Not Cup competitive and Cap maxed where much better teams have better talent and more success and even better player contracts in a Cap World. Leafs can't bring in more talent because they don't have the cap room and if they trade for good players then good players will have to be going out in exchange and equal cap dollars in and out to balance the cap.

So how are the Leafs going to win a Cup in this Cap situation?

By drafting and developing young talent while using smart decisions in player management to acquire elite level talent to play with who you're drafting and developing.

The cap plays little part of that other then being the sliding scale by which you're forced to pay your veteran talent when their contracts are up. Give a player a winning situation and he'll take a little less to keep a good thing going.

There is no Cup being won this season by the Leafs and as is the case most years only about a dozen teams can claim to having a legitimate expectation of making it to the finals. That doesn't mean more then half the league is being mismanaged, it's simply the cycle teams that become very bad must do to fix itself and as we enter year 6 or 7 of the true rebuild we start to see a current core and a future core come together and offer some sign of future hope.

LA, the current 'go to' example for success, took a good 10-12 years of rebuilding to get to a point where the kids they were picking were good enough to be complimented by veterans from other teams in an effort to win.

I would say we are 3-5 years from that point.

 

[Jack Bauer]

We're really not in a "tough spot". The only bad contract is clarkson, perhaps komarov as well although 2.95 isn't that much.

Exactly and as the cap goes up the ELC's stay the same and players like Raymond last year and Winnick this year will still be there for around $1 million to fill out a roster.

It's the vets who eat up the money and outside of the 2 you mentioned we could shed almost any other contract within the hour if we really needed the cap space.

Fact is there's no way to pry away players like Eric Staal or anyone else people want as a #1 C and the UFA market next year isn't looking great so what exactly does everyone want the money for right now? It's not like we can carry over unused cap space.

 

[The CyNick]

The LA Kings have won 2 of the last 3 Stanley Cups and are a proven winner..

Leafs have missed the playoffs 6 of the last 7 years.

How can a proven Cup winning team and bottom 10 team be spending and using their cap space similarly while producing vastly different results?

easy, one team has drafted better than the other

what difference does it make if we have 20 million in cap space and no assets?

 

[The CyNick]

So our Leafs are in a tough spot..

Not Cup competitive and Cap maxed where much better teams have better talent and more success and even better player contracts in a Cap World. Leafs can't bring in more talent because they don't have the cap room and if they trade for good players then good players will have to be going out in exchange and equal cap dollars in and out to balance the cap.

So how are the Leafs going to win a Cup in this Cap situation?

what "talent" did we pass up on this summer due to cap restrictions?

Would you have been happy paying Mason Raymond? Or would he have fallen into your "we have overpaid for another winger" argument?

 

[Ricky Bobby]

5 of Leafs 6 highest paid forwards are wingers in a league where strength down the middle is the desired team building strategy for success. Even then its anyone' guess who the 2nd line RW will be when the season starts even with the high cap investment in wingers.

This is not a desired way to cap manage a team in the salary cap world of building from the Wingers IN.

The reason Leafs ended up here is because wingers are a dime a dozen and regularly available and the lowest priority in team building with C, D and G the core building block positions.

Chicago also has 5 of their top 6 forwards as wingers.

Komarov is also likely a center for us this so then it's actually 4 of 6. Then # 7 on the forward salary scale is Kadri. Kadri will be jumping into the top 4 forward salaries on this team after next year.

You are oversimplyfing things in so many ways.

It's great to say lets build down the middle but it isn't that easy. How did dedicating cap space to Connolly and Lombardi work out for us? Grabo at 5.5 was a bad deal (although obviously not as bad as Clarkson) and overpaying Bolland for 5 years at 5.5 per would have been another mistake.

The Leafs like every team know that wingers have a lesser influence on winning/losing vs. other positions.

You really need to consider that in approximately the last 26 months we traded for Bernier (G), Bolland (C), Holland (C) well all of the picks in the top 3 rounds that we owned were used on either a C or D (Rielly, Finn, Gauthier, Verhaeghe, Nylander, Valiev). However, these moves will take a while to fully pay off.

After Kadri + Bernier get their new deals at the end of this season we'll start to see the cap space allocation shifting and I highly doubt Lupul will be here for his entire contract.

Building a franchise from rock bottom takes time!

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

When I check CapGeek http://www.capgeek.com/payrolls/?charts_year=2014

I see 4 teams who are currently over the limit and need to reduce (Philly, Chicago, Tampa and Boston).

After that there is only one team with less cap space than the Leafs, LA Kings.

The average Cap space for all team is $5,410,053.77.

The average value of Cap space for all of last years playoff teams is $3,239,553.50

The average value of Cap space for all of last years non-playoff teams is $7,890,625.50

What this tells me is that while maybe the Leafs do not have a crisis at this time they, for a non-playoff team for 8 of the last 9 years they are in a bad cap situation. The hope would have been that in the building of this team we would have the luxury of cap space to make other moves.

It seems as though Burkie has learned his lesson and his Flames are in a much better position to make moves, Cap Space $17,288,333 with 20 players signed

Burkie left himself lots of wiggle room by not offering long term contracts and certainly not long term first line dollars to third liners. Other people seem intent on tying the organization's hands.

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

what "talent" did we pass up on this summer due to cap restrictions?

Would you have been happy paying Mason Raymond? Or would he have fallen into your "we have overpaid for another winger" argument?

Last year the motto was "Clarkson, Bolland, Morrow" etc.

 

[seanlinden]

How is the cap situation bad when only $5.25 of it is essentially unmoveable in a cap of $70 million?

We could clear $10 million by this evening if we needed it. That's not a bad situation.

I'd much rather Lupul then $5.25 in dead cap space. Same with Gardiner, JVR, Kessel, Bernier, Kadri and all their salaries.

We also have enough youth on the horizon to pencel in at least 1-2 ELC's over next of the next 2 seasons.

Because we don't have (m)any players who contribute far in excess of their cap hit.

Players who contribute (or can be expected to contribute) far in excess of their cap hit:
Bernier (Expiring)
Kadri (Expiring)
JvR

Players who contribute slightly more than their cap hit:
Bozak
Franson (Expiring)
Polak

Players at their cap hit:
Lupul (no real upside beyond that)
Robidas
Reimer

Players at less than their cap hit:
Phaneuf (paying for term)
Kessel (paying for term)
Gardiner (potential to move up)
Clarkson (the best he'll ever get is in Lupul's category, and that's optimistic)
Komarov (paying for potential)

This is every player on the team who makes more than $1.5m. Somehow, the Leafs need to find a way to drastically skew this group, so that they've got 4 or 5 players in the first group, 6 or 7 in the 2nd group, another 5 or 6 in the 3rd group, and maybe only 1 or 2 guys in the latter group. Phaneuf/Kessel/Gardiner should naturally move out of that group, but Kadri & Bernier are likely destined to move out of their group as well.

 

[Gallagbi]

Chicago also has 5 of their top 6 forwards as wingers.

Komarov is also likely a center for us this so then it's actually 4 of 6. Then # 7 on the forward salary scale is Kadri.

I wouldn't expect to see much of Komarov down the middle.

 

[Mess]

By drafting and developing young talent while using smart decisions in player management to acquire elite level talent to play with who you're drafting and developing.

The cap plays little part of that other then being the sliding scale by which you're forced to pay your veteran talent when their contracts are up. Give a player a winning situation and he'll take a little less to keep a good thing going.

There is no Cup being won this season by the Leafs and as is the case most years only about a dozen teams can claim to having a legitimate expectation of making it to the finals. That doesn't mean more then half the league is being mismanaged, it's simply the cycle teams that become very bad must do to fix itself and as we enter year 6 or 7 of the true rebuild we start to see a current core and a future core come together and offer some sign of future hope.

LA, the current 'go to' example for success, took a good 10-12 years of rebuilding to get to a point where the kids they were picking were good enough to be complimented by veterans from other teams in an effort to win.

I would say we are 3-5 years from that point.

So this year with this roster we're not Cup competitive while in year 7 of the current rebuild.

Next year the Cap goes up $5 mil and Leafs now split that amount between Kadri and Bernier who become RFAs. So same team as this year only now paying our own players more money. Our current bottom 6 almost all become UFAs as 1 year deals end, and Leafs go out an get a new set of bargain basement <$1.5 mil players to fill in start promoting prospects.

Rinse and repeat for the next 3-5 years making our rebuild a 10-12 year undertaking. By then Kessel will be 32 and Phaneuf 35 and now we will be considered a Cup competitor, and we're counting on an organization with a limited success at the draft to start providing key talent.

So Leafs are just killing time for the next 3-5 years until we're ready if everything goes well, & so the cap for the next few years means little because of simply biding time for the future at present?

 

[Jack Bauer]

So this year with this roster we're not Cup competitive while in year 7 of the current rebuild.

Next year the Cap goes up $5 mil and Leafs now split that amount between Kadri and Bernier who become RFAs. So same team as this year only now paying our own players more money. Our current bottom 6 almost all become UFAs as 1 year deals end, and Leafs go out an get a new set of bargain basement <$1.5 mil players to fill in start promoting prospects.

Rinse and repeat for the next 3-5 years making our rebuild a 10-12 year undertaking. By then Kessel will be 32 and Phaneuf 35 and now we will be considered a Cup competitor, and we're counting on an organization with a limited success at the draft to start providing key talent.

So Leafs are just killing time for the next 3-5 years until we're ready if everything goes well, & so the cap for the next few years means little because of simply biding time for the future at present?

LA wasn't Cup competitive in year 7. Neither was Chicago. That was around the time both teams drafted franchise forwards. While both having a very poor drafting history.

What you call killing time is stuff hockey fans and teams call development.

Care to offer any insight of your own outside of pretentious posts dripping in sarcasm or is that all you have to offer?

It's a wonder why you even come here in your sky is always falling world where only you seem to know the obvious and proper way to win.

 

[Jack Bauer]

Because we don't have (m)any players who contribute far in excess of their cap hit.

Players who contribute (or can be expected to contribute) far in excess of their cap hit:
Bernier (Expiring)
Kadri (Expiring)
JvR

Players who contribute slightly more than their cap hit:
Bozak
Franson (Expiring)
Polak

Players at their cap hit:
Lupul (no real upside beyond that)
Robidas
Reimer

Players at less than their cap hit:
Phaneuf (paying for term)
Kessel (paying for term)
Gardiner (potential to move up)
Clarkson (the best he'll ever get is in Lupul's category, and that's optimistic)
Komarov (paying for potential)

This is every player on the team who makes more than $1.5m. Somehow, the Leafs need to find a way to drastically skew this group, so that they've got 4 or 5 players in the first group, 6 or 7 in the 2nd group, another 5 or 6 in the 3rd group, and maybe only 1 or 2 guys in the latter group. Phaneuf/Kessel/Gardiner should naturally move out of that group, but Kadri & Bernier are likely destined to move out of their group as well.

But none of those deals are unmoveable so when the players are available to be acquired we can flip Lupul's or Reimer's fair contract and/or Franson's expiring one to open up some cap space and roster spots.

Contracts like JVR's are a thing of the past. We can't speed up where some of our players are at development wise because we have a good contract on a front line forward.

It's also ok to move out those players as they age for players who better fit the team moving forward.

You all want to be Chicago and LA without seeing they took a decade to get where they are. We're still a good 2-3 years from that.

I guess you can whine about it or expect it. Much easier to enjoy a sport when you have the proper expectations for your team. Leafs Nation and proper expectations simply don't go in the same sentence together sadly.

 

[Northern Dancer]

Jack, stop making so much sense you're ruining this comedic thread.

 

[Gary Nylund]

But none of those deals are unmoveable so when the players are available to be acquired we can flip Lupul's or Reimer's fair contract and/or Franson's expiring one to open up some cap space and roster spots.

Contracts like JVR's are a thing of the past. We can't speed up where some of our players are at development wise because we have a good contract on a front line forward.

It's also ok to move out those players as they age for players who better fit the team moving forward.

You all want to be Chicago and LA without seeing they took a decade to get where they are. We're still a good 2-3 years from that.

I guess you can whine about it or expect it. Much easier to enjoy a sport when you have the proper expectations for your team. Leafs Nation and proper expectations simply don't go in the same sentence together sadly.

I understand the frustration and feel it to a certain extent myself.

If I had reason to believe we were 2-3 years away from being a good team (not even Chicago/LA level) but just better than we are now and progressing upward I'd be fine with that. I'm not impatient, I just want to know we're on track.

I wonder though, how can anyone be sure that we're on the right track? The biggest question mark in my mind is the contract we reportedly offered Bolland this off-season. The willingness to pay him 5 million a year for the next 5 years to me is cause for concern to put it mildly. I believe that would have been a huge mistake and if our mgmnt really thinks that was a deal worth doing then we are probably screwed..

Am I wrong to think this way?

 

[seanlinden]

But none of those deals are unmoveable so when the players are available to be acquired we can flip Lupul's or Reimer's fair contract and/or Franson's expiring one to open up some cap space and roster spots.

Contracts like JVR's are a thing of the past. We can't speed up where some of our players are at development wise because we have a good contract on a front line forward.

It's also ok to move out those players as they age for players who better fit the team moving forward.

You all want to be Chicago and LA without seeing they took a decade to get where they are. We're still a good 2-3 years from that.

I guess you can whine about it or expect it. Much easier to enjoy a sport when you have the proper expectations for your team. Leafs Nation and proper expectations simply don't go in the same sentence together sadly.

That doesn't mean it's not a problem. We need to find a way to get players who fit into those first 2 groups, generally, you need players in those first 2 groups to trade for them. Yeah, we could pretty easily move Lupul, Reimer and Franson; but then we'd still have to find a way to replace 20+ goals in 60 games, a backup goalie, and a highly productive powerplay defenceman, who also happens to be pretty solid in his own end (without the puck) at 5on5.

So this year with this roster we're not Cup competitive while in year 7 of the current rebuild.

Next year the Cap goes up $5 mil and Leafs now split that amount between Kadri and Bernier who become RFAs. So same team as this year only now paying our own players more money. Our current bottom 6 almost all become UFAs as 1 year deals end, and Leafs go out an get a new set of bargain basement <$1.5 mil players to fill in start promoting prospects.

Rinse and repeat for the next 3-5 years making our rebuild a 10-12 year undertaking. By then Kessel will be 32 and Phaneuf 35 and now we will be considered a Cup competitor, and we're counting on an organization with a limited success at the draft to start providing key talent.

So Leafs are just killing time for the next 3-5 years until we're ready if everything goes well, & so the cap for the next few years means little because of simply biding time for the future at present?

There in essence seems to be the problem. Cycling over this year's $1m grinders, and expect different results. The Leafs need to take on risks like they did with Gardiner. They need to get more players in those types of situations.

 

[Jack Bauer]

I understand the frustration and feel it to a certain extent myself.

If I had reason to believe we were 2-3 years away from being a good team (not even Chicago/LA level) but just better than we are now and progressing upward I'd be fine with that. I'm not impatient, I just want to know we're on track.

I wonder though, how can anyone be sure that we're on the right track? The biggest question mark in my mind is the contract we reportedly offered Bolland this off-season. The willingness to pay him 5 million a year for the next 5 years to me is cause for concern to put it mildly. I believe that would have been a huge mistake and if our mgmnt really thinks that was a deal worth doing then we are probably screwed..

Am I wrong to think this way?

Yes and no.

If I told you that Bolland offer was legit but if he signed it we were moving Lupul for a pair of 2nd round picks does that change your opinion of the offer?

As fans we try and draw conclusions while only knowing the end result and not all the factors that went into that decision.

You can never be sure any team is on the right track. Most of us 5 years ago would have expected Pittsburgh to be the team with multiple Cups at this point, not Chicago and LA.

 

[Jack Bauer]

That doesn't mean it's not a problem. We need to find a way to get players who fit into those first 2 groups, generally, you need players in those first 2 groups to trade for them. Yeah, we could pretty easily move Lupul, Reimer and Franson; but then we'd still have to find a way to replace 20+ goals in 60 games, a backup goalie, and a highly productive powerplay defenceman, who also happens to be pretty solid in his own end (without the puck) at 5on5.

So you want the cap space and not the holes?

You can't have it both ways.

 

[Mess]

LA wasn't Cup competitive in year 7. Neither was Chicago. That was around the time both teams drafted franchise forwards. While both having a very poor drafting history.

What you call killing time is stuff hockey fans and teams call development.

Care to offer any insight of your own outside of pretentious posts dripping in sarcasm or is that all you have to offer?

It's a wonder why you even come here in your sky is always falling world where only you seem to know the obvious and proper way to win.

So you're saying acquiring Kessel at age 21 waiting 10-12 years and then when he is 31-33 years old the rebuild will be at a point where Leafs are Cup competitive annually if everything goes well and on plan?.

I see a team that finished 8th from the bottom of the league, one of the worst defensive teams that just swapped out 1/2 their forwards and nearly 1/2 the D as a strong indication that this wasn't a very good team. The major roster turnover a sign that things were not going as planned but rather a change in direction was needed.

I see a team that spends to the cap ceiling and finishing in the bottom 10 overall in 6 of the last 7 seasons as one that has serious cap management issues and talent and team building concerns..

I have hope that once Shanny and Dubas get more experience and then we will see major moves to the core not the fringe players as they continue to reshape this team into one that can be competitive not just passing time.

 

[seanlinden]

So you want the cap space and not the holes?

You can't have it both ways.

Absolutely.

I want better value players. I don't neccessarily need another JvR (although it would be nice), I want somebody who contributes like Lupul, but costs $4.25m instead of $5.25m. If I'm going to have an agitator like David Clarkson, i want to pay him the $3m that Matt Cooke makes, not the $5.25m that he makes.