LD Darnell Nurse (2013, 7th, EDM)

[StoveTopStauffer]

I have to laugh, it's like people think he's mentally ******** or something.

No toolbox? What the hell does that even mean?

 

[seabass11]

I have to laugh, it's like people think he's mentally ******** or something.

No toolbox? What the hell does that even mean?

It means they haven't seen him play very much. He's going to be an absolute stud.

 

[40oz]

Bigras was the only player ranked as a better skater then Nathan macKinnon in the 13 draft. Their defensive games are close and it comes down to which kind of defensive game you prefer/need.

Ranked where?

 

[ChaoticOrange]

Just go look at most if not all lists of Top Prospects in the NHL. Nurse is on all of them Bigras isn't even in the conversation.. yet you're adamant Bigras is better at Defense and skating... Nurse's two biggest strengths...

Yep. *laugh*

Thus far in this thread it's

Bigras: Skating! Offence! IQ! Decision making! Poise! Passing!

Nurse: Bigness!

Tie: Defence!

Yet one player was a top 10 pick and the lynchpin for Canada's defence this year, and the other was a 2nd rounder that had good offensive numbers in his final junior year after a disappointing Draft+1 year.

You know what great Draft+2 numbers mean in junior?

Just about nothing.

 

[McBaevid]

Something about him just screams Cam Barker with a mean streak to me, just seems like a very all tools no toolbox type, not to say I think he won't be an NHLer but I think he ends up a defensive #4 who will crush a few people but make some pretty big blunders especially when seeing big ice time.



Really? The only aspects of the game I think nurse is better at is physical play slap shot and being bigger. Bigras is a better skater, he controls the play more he's better defensively(a lot more cerebral think MEV/Hamhuis vs Edler/Phanuef) and as you mentioned better offensively.

I'm not as high on Nurse as other Oilers fans are who claim him to be Pronger incarnate but this is a load of ****. Nurse is a much better prospect than Bigras.

 

[ecemleafs]

one of his playoff games is on NHLN right now. looks like a younger Jaybo with some attitude.

 

[McFlyingV]

Generally a lurker on here...but I will say this. Nurse will be an NHL dman for sure. There is no need to compare him to Cam Barker.

I was not a huge fan of Nurse's game during the OHL playoffs. I mean he "contained" McDavid as best as any one player could. But as we learned, it takes a whole team to shut down McDavid at the OHL level.

I think Nurse will be a 3-4 dman, defensive specialist. He will put up points due to the forwards he passing the puck up to. I don't think he has the mind or decision making to be a top pairing guy. (which is weird, as he was the scholastic player of the year)
I REALLY hope I'm wrong, but I'm not setting expectations as a top pairing guy. None of our D-men I think will be top Pairing guys. Maybe Klefbom, but he won't be a huge point producer.

We need the intimidation factor with Nurse, more than anything. I'd take an early years Phaneuf intimidation factor over him putting up 40 points. We need his mean

Slightly off topic from this thread, but I don't see how you think Klefbom won't be a point producer. He made huge leaps in his offensive game last season, has great offensive vision and instincts, can lead the rush with excellent skating, has a pretty good clapper, and most of all he knows how to get pucks through. No dman on the Oilers got puck through shot blockers better than Klefbom did last year. I think he absolutely has 40 point upside.

 

[Dr Quincy]

Something about him just screams Cam Barker with a mean streak to me, just seems like a very all tools no toolbox type, not to say I think he won't be an NHLer but I think he ends up a defensive #4 who will crush a few people but make some pretty big blunders especially when seeing big ice time.



Really? The only aspects of the game I think nurse is better at is physical play slap shot and being bigger. Bigras is a better skater, he controls the play more he's better defensively(a lot more cerebral think MEV/Hamhuis vs Edler/Phanuef) and as you mentioned better offensively.

You seriously underrate Nurse here. Wow, by a lot.

I'd love to bookmark this thread and come back to it in a year.

 

[Dr Quincy]

I have to laugh, it's like people think he's mentally ******** or something.

No toolbox? What the hell does that even mean?

Watching the SSM-ERI series on NHL network. Anyone who says Nurse doesn't have hockey IQ is ignorant, and perhaps something else.

He absolutely controlled games in that series in a way most dmen can't and don't.

 

[McFlyingV]

Watching the SSM-ERI series on NHL network. Anyone who says Nurse doesn't have hockey IQ is ignorant, and perhaps something else.

He absolutely controlled games in that series in a way most dmen can't and don't.

I agree, I never understood this argument from Nurse haters. His defensive IQ is very good. The one area he needs to really work on is his decision making in the offensive zone. He needs to mix it up more when he carries the puck into the zone rather than just driving wide into the corner every time. I think that will come with age, especially on a team where a lot of the forwards can keep up with him when he rushes it (something he didn't have in SSM)

 

[Rufio65*]

Watching the SSM-ERI series on NHL network. Anyone who says Nurse doesn't have hockey IQ is ignorant, and perhaps something else.

He absolutely controlled games in that series in a way most dmen can't and don't.

Nurse did step up in that series and played his best hockey of that OHL season. Overall it wasn't a great season for Nurse and most SSM fans and OHL observers would tell you the same thing. When Nurse got taken off the PP (and when he was injured)it improved by 20%.

The majority of posters on here grossly overrate him. There are a lot of parts to his game that are going to hinder him in a big way at the next level. No need to call people ignorant for having a differing opinion.

Just curious.. did you watch Nurse this year outside of that series and the WJC?

 

[Michael Farkas]

His one on one defense is good because he has the physical tools. And in all likelihood the guy he's going against isn't anywhere near the athlete he is. The part where people - people such as me, who rate hockey sense well above any other attribute - call his anticipation skills into question is the same place where most players get called on the carpet...when they are hemmed in their own end.

When they are getting it passed around on them, when another team establishes the cycle against you...that's a great place to test the IQ of a defending player. Do you handle it like Luca Sbisa, Jared Cowen or Dion Phaneuf and just try to find a guy and stick him to the corner regardless of what's going on around you? Or do you make a more cerebral play and anticipate the next pass and get out of your end...? (Just one example of many, but probably the easiest one to identify given how often it happens in any game)

The physical tools are almost overwhelmingly good. I'm not really one for hyperbole as I've seen a lot of prospects over the years and know a lot about the history of the game...but Nurse may be one of the best athletes I've ever seen come into the league. But those tools are highly dependent on having the smarts to use them properly and grow them in unison with your knowledge of the game...and I say that not specifically talking about Nurse, it's true for all players in every position...

I don't think there's any death sentence (on a career) being issued here, but it's worthy of civil discussion...if possible...

 

[ChaoticOrange]

^^^ Civil discussion if possible and Cam Barker with a mean streak are mutually exclusive.

 

[Michael Farkas]

^^^ Civil discussion if possible and Cam Barker with a mean streak are mutually exclusive.

Fair. Cam Barker was a sloppy putz...

 

[Roof Daddy]

His one on one defense is good because he has the physical tools. And in all likelihood the guy he's going against isn't anywhere near the athlete he is. The part where people - people such as me, who rate hockey sense well above any other attribute - call his anticipation skills into question is the same place where most players get called on the carpet...when they are hemmed in their own end.

When they are getting it passed around on them, when another team establishes the cycle against you...that's a great place to test the IQ of a defending player. Do you handle it like Luca Sbisa, Jared Cowen or Dion Phaneuf and just try to find a guy and stick him to the corner regardless of what's going on around you? Or do you make a more cerebral play and anticipate the next pass and get out of your end...? (Just one example of many, but probably the easiest one to identify given how often it happens in any game)

The physical tools are almost overwhelmingly good. I'm not really one for hyperbole as I've seen a lot of prospects over the years and know a lot about the history of the game...but Nurse may be one of the best athletes I've ever seen come into the league. But those tools are highly dependent on having the smarts to use them properly and grow them in unison with your knowledge of the game...and I say that not specifically talking about Nurse, it's true for all players in every position...

I don't think there's any death sentence (on a career) being issued here, but it's worthy of civil discussion...if possible...

You make fair points on both the positive and negative ledger regarding Nurse. I'm a big fan and a lot of that has to do with the insane athleticism and compete level he brings. I can't argue against how heavily you favour hockey IQ, and I can't argue that when you look at the list of greats/HoFers, they all have it. What I would question is this, what is harder to do, teach a player to be more athletic, strong and compete harder, or to teach how to anticipate the play and read the game?

Nurse will never have that innate hockey sense that Doughty or Keith have obviously, but with the right coach and enough time spent in the film room you can gain a better understanding of the game. When I say the right coach (which I think McLellan is), I don't just mean communicating in a manner that Nurse will understand, but also McLellan understanding what type of player he has and how to use him in the best way. I think McLellan will likely deploy Nurse much like he did with Brent Burns - green light to be aggressive on pinches or jump up in the play. Paired with a guy like Fayne, I think it will work quite well, but maybe that's more fan than logic talking. Guess we'll wait and see.

P.S. After reading your comment one more time, I'm curious where you saw PK Subban's game at a similar point in his career? I would think his scouting report read much the same at the same age - tremendous athlete with questionable hockey sense (otherwise how does that level of skill and athleticism fall to the 2nd Rd)?

 

[victor]

Watching the SSM-ERI series on NHL network. Anyone who says Nurse doesn't have hockey IQ is ignorant, and perhaps something else.

He absolutely controlled games in that series in a way most dmen can't and don't.

Yeah, I don't get it. He played the entire WJC tournament without a single goal against at even strength.

His play is somewhat too aggressive, though. You have to accept that he'll take a certain number of penalties, not all of the "good" variety. Scary to play against, though. His battles, with guys like Dergachyov at the WJC and McDavid in the OHL playoffs are impressive.

 

[McMozesmadness]

Nurse did step up in that series and played his best hockey of that OHL season. Overall it wasn't a great season for Nurse and most SSM fans and OHL observers would tell you the same thing. When Nurse got taken off the PP (and when he was injured)it improved by 20%.

The majority of posters on here grossly overrate him. There are a lot of parts to his game that are going to hinder him in a big way at the next level. No need to call people ignorant for having a differing opinion.

Just curious.. did you watch Nurse this year outside of that series and the WJC?

I just read through the Greyhounds season threads on in the OHL forum and everyone loved Nurse most calling him dominant. Some calling him the best d-man in the OHL. When DeAngelo arrived his role was changed and it took him a while to adjust but when he did he was dominant. He doesn't have a very pure offensive game that is DeAngelos specialty so its not surprising the PP% went up. DeAngelo is a premier offensive D.

And so what if people have only seen him at the biggest moments of the year. Even if those happened to be his best. He was arguably the best player at the WJC and was a force in the OHL final. So what that tells me is that he elevates his game when it matters most.

 

[OttawaRoughRiderFan*]

So much negativity directed at this kid. I don't get it.

 

[Michael Farkas]

You make fair points on both the positive and negative ledger regarding Nurse. I'm a big fan and a lot of that has to do with the insane athleticism and compete level he brings. I can't argue against how heavily you favour hockey IQ, and I can't argue that when you look at the list of greats/HoFers, they all have it. What I would question is this, what is harder to do, teach a player to be more athletic, strong and compete harder, or to teach how to anticipate the play and read the game?

Nurse will never have that innate hockey sense that Doughty or Keith have obviously, but with the right coach and enough time spent in the film room you can gain a better understanding of the game. When I say the right coach (which I think McLellan is), I don't just mean communicating in a manner that Nurse will understand, but also McLellan understanding what type of player he has and how to use him in the best way. I think McLellan will likely deploy Nurse much like he did with Brent Burns - green light to be aggressive on pinches or jump up in the play. Paired with a guy like Fayne, I think it will work quite well, but maybe that's more fan than logic talking. Guess we'll wait and see.

P.S. After reading your comment one more time, I'm curious where you saw PK Subban's game at a similar point in his career? I would think his scouting report read much the same at the same age - tremendous athlete with questionable hockey sense (otherwise how does that level of skill and athleticism fall to the 2nd Rd)?

Hockey sense is the only attribute that really can't be taught. Deep down at its core, it's instinctual. Now, that's not to say that you take any 14 year old and go, "start training to be an athlete like Darnell Nurse by the time you're 19" and he's going to get close. He likely isn't. But you can watch all the tape you want and get all the best coaching you can and it will move the needle to some degree...maybe...but it's one of those things where you really either have it or you don't to be honest...

I've coached hockey for a number of years at a number of levels, it's just one of those things...whenever someone goes "the kid has 'it'" that "it" is what we're talking about right now..."the puck just follows him around" you hear sometimes...that's what we're talking about. As Doc Emrick might say, though not in this context, the "unseen hand"...

Brent Burns is an interesting example and I don't want to derail the thread...but Burns is really on another planet. He's not a dumb player in that he lacks hockey sense, he's a slightly different mold and I've yet to be able to effectively classify him...I call it "he just plays"...Burns just goes out there and plays the game...good, bad or indifferent...right wing, left defense, right defense, whatever, and he basically just does whatever the hell he wants...and it has worked to date. Again, I wouldn't call him a dumb player, but he just kind of goes to his own drummer out there...Simon Despres of Anaheim is the same way but less talented...he just goes out and plays, very athletic players, big bodied and they use it...interesting player type you list there...

I say this all the time, but Burns could walk right off the rink after playing 42:16 of a game and the interviewer could go, "how do you think you did tonight...?" and Burns would say, "Did at what...?" He's just very tough to describe...

Anyway...I have hundreds (thousands?) of notes over the past several years written into computer files, or notepads, or ticket stubs or napkins or what have you all over the place and occasionally, I'll go back and look and see how far I was and use it as a learning tool to be better with the next player...PK Subban was probably the biggest turning point in my evaluation of defensemen I've ever had. I feel now that my biggest strength in evaluating talent is offensive defensemen and it's largely thanks to Subban as a junior...the kick of it is - as I have no reason to lie, though it'd be easy to - I didn't think his game would translate to being an NHLer...I didn't think he'd be good enough defensively...he had Kirill Koltsov written all over him I thought...

When he made it, I went back and looked at his progression and it changed my perception of the game...

I'm not sure that I'd make the connection between Nurse and Subban, quite honestly, but I see where you're going with it and it's a respectable point...

 

[McMozesmadness]

So much negativity directed at this kid. I don't get it.

He is an Oilers prospect.

 

[VainGretzky]

I'd say OK.

Ty for this I have only seen him 3/4 times, once in his 1st season and he reminded me of bambi on skates good skater but looked clumsy. He looked good in whc and in playoffs the couple games I caught on SN .

 

[McArthur]

What I would question is this, what is harder to do, teach a player to be more athletic, strong and compete harder, or to teach how to anticipate the play and read the game?

Nurse will never have that innate hockey sense that Doughty or Keith have obviously, but with the right coach and enough time spent in the film room you can gain a better understanding of the game. When I say the right coach (which I think McLellan is), I don't just mean communicating in a manner that Nurse will understand, but also McLellan understanding what type of player he has and how to use him in the best way. I think McLellan will likely deploy Nurse much like he did with Brent Burns - green light to be aggressive on pinches or jump up in the play. Paired with a guy like Fayne, I think it will work quite well, but maybe that's more fan than logic talking. Guess we'll wait and see.

What stands out to me when Nurse had a few NHL games was how often he turned the puck over in the neutral zone. If he is going to skate it up the ice, that has to end. I'd rather see him ice it... I coached a kid that had no skills at all, he was the highest scoring player on the team, and scored each goal, planted in front of the net with pure tenacity. his line mate, one of the most gifted players i'd ever seen, did things and thought the game through in a way I couldn't coach, was the smallest player on the team, and set up my no skill leading scorer from the half wall all season.

As a coach, i'd have to say the greatest reward (a humbling reward...), was watching kids do things, or set up plays, that I couldn't coach them if I tried...

 

[Roof Daddy]

Hockey sense is the only attribute that really can't be taught. Deep down at its core, it's instinctual. Now, that's not to say that you take any 14 year old and go, "start training to be an athlete like Darnell Nurse by the time you're 19" and he's going to get close. He likely isn't. But you can watch all the tape you want and get all the best coaching you can and it will move the needle to some degree...maybe...but it's one of those things where you really either have it or you don't to be honest...

I've coached hockey for a number of years at a number of levels, it's just one of those things...whenever someone goes "the kid has 'it'" that "it" is what we're talking about right now..."the puck just follows him around" you hear sometimes...that's what we're talking about. As Doc Emrick might say, though not in this context, the "unseen hand"...

Brent Burns is an interesting example and I don't want to derail the thread...but Burns is really on another planet. He's not a dumb player in that he lacks hockey sense, he's a slightly different mold and I've yet to be able to effectively classify him...I call it "he just plays"...Burns just goes out there and plays the game...good, bad or indifferent...right wing, left defense, right defense, whatever, and he basically just does whatever the hell he wants...and it has worked to date. Again, I wouldn't call him a dumb player, but he just kind of goes to his own drummer out there...Simon Despres of Anaheim is the same way but less talented...he just goes out and plays, very athletic players, big bodied and they use it...interesting player type you list there...

I say this all the time, but Burns could walk right off the rink after playing 42:16 of a game and the interviewer could go, "how do you think you did tonight...?" and Burns would say, "Did at what...?" He's just very tough to describe...

Anyway...I have hundreds (thousands?) of notes over the past several years written into computer files, or notepads, or ticket stubs or napkins or what have you all over the place and occasionally, I'll go back and look and see how far I was and use it as a learning tool to be better with the next player...PK Subban was probably the biggest turning point in my evaluation of defensemen I've ever had. I feel now that my biggest strength in evaluating talent is offensive defensemen and it's largely thanks to Subban as a junior...the kick of it is - as I have no reason to lie, though it'd be easy to - I didn't think his game would translate to being an NHLer...I didn't think he'd be good enough defensively...he had Kirill Koltsov written all over him I thought...

When he made it, I went back and looked at his progression and it changed my perception of the game...

I'm not sure that I'd make the connection between Nurse and Subban, quite honestly, but I see where you're going with it and it's a respectable point...

Thanks for the input. I suppose when I described the hockey sense vs athleticism debate I may have come across as suggesting one could be learned more readily than the other. Poor phrasing on my part as I agree with you neither can be learned. What I should have said is one can be compensated for more than the other (which I imagine we'll still be in disagreement). I think good coaching and the right system can help a player overcome questionable hockey sense more readily than a player becoming more athletic and tenacious via training program. I think it's why you see some players' game suffer when they go to a new team or get a new coach - the old system and how they were used masked any hockey IQ deficiency.

As for Burns and PK, I wasn't necessarily trying to compare Nurse directly to either. With Burns, I think given the crazy athleticism both possess and the Coach who formerly coached Burns now having a similar athlete in Nurse, it seems likely he's used in a similar deployment/style. With PK, I was merely suggesting the two would have had similar scouting reports 2 years after the draft (minus PK always having a bomb for a shot), and that scouting report certainly wouldn't have read "future Norris winner" (as your comments attest to).

I have no problem with people questioning Nurse's hockey IQ/reads, I've seen him make some odd decisions, but I'd urge those same people not to close the book on him in that regard. He is very coach able and his work ethic is tremendous. Couple that with McLellan being an excellent communicator and teacher, and I think it won't be a concern moving forward (though he won't ever have the "it" you describe, but how many really do???).

 

[SensNation613]

Yep. *laugh*

Thus far in this thread it's

Bigras: Skating! Offence! IQ! Decision making! Poise! Passing!

Nurse: Bigness!

Tie: Defence!

Yet one player was a top 10 pick and the lynchpin for Canada's defence this year, and the other was a 2nd rounder that had good offensive numbers in his final junior year after a disappointing Draft+1 year.

You know what great Draft+2 numbers mean in junior?

Just about nothing.

I do agree that Bigras is a better skater, that's his biggest strength but he is not even in the same tier as Nurse in terms of a prospect ranking. That guy is delusional!

 

[Klimando Kostani]

I've never seen this Bigras play but if he's a better skater than Nurse, who keeps up with mcdavid.... well colour me impressed